ALC Game 12: Japan/Tokugawa

"They're also kind of boring"

I'm going to assume that that pronoun goes back to "land maps." Horses for courses, I guess-- I find the Islands and Highlands maps the most boring. I've liked reading these ALCs, but nothing yet has moved me to play a Continents map, and this Fractal example has hardly warmed my cockles either. Thanks for the response, keep up the excellent work, and hope to see a posting tonight.

IPEX-731BA5DD06 said:

I beg to differ, 2 First Strikes, CR III Samurai, have an excellent chance against a musketman with the 10% V's Gunpowder units, and 75% Attacking cities bonus, that's a cummalitive bonus of 85% from a base of 8 that's..Umm &*^% 14.8 plus any combat bonuses given as well... Musketman, BUILT from scratch..no promotions allowed...base marker of 9 with CG II...very unlikely, as the AI usually gives combat, and CG I if it has a barracks at all. Attacking as it get gunpowder, it has to BUILD these units, not UPGRADE THEM, so at most you'll face 1 or 2. Mostly it'll build pillaging units..initially, then defenders as it loses cities....

You may lose a Samurai or 2, but new Samurai, with just CR I & II, no cover, and free Combat 1, usually do the job. Maceman aswell...

Agree on Rifle's/Grenadiers

On rest of Post Weeeeeeeeeee my head spins....

Click to expand...

You're right about the muskets, except I don't know how much better the 2 first strikes make samurai vs. muskets than maces vs. muskets. I'll defer to you, though, since you have a clear grasp of the combat mechanics.

The rest of my post, though ...I ramble a lot. It basically boiled down to 2 points:

1 ) econ might be better than liberalism because
2 ) gold is sometimes better than a tech (beakers are cheaper than gold from a commerce p.o.v., because you usually have more beaker modifiers).

IPEX-731BA5DD06 said:

I beg to differ, 2 First Strikes, CR III Samurai, have an excellent chance against a musketman with the 10% V's Gunpowder units, and 75% Attacking cities bonus, that's a cummalitive bonus of 85% from a base of 8 that's..Umm &*^% 14.8 plus any combat bonuses given as well...

Click to expand...

That's not really how it works. The Samurai only gets bonuses like the combat 1 promotion it gets for free...generic promotions such as city raider, and vs gunpowder are taken off the defender.

Round 6: 1130 AD to 1583 AD, Part 1

I started the round by deciding upon my Heroic Epic (military) city:



It seemed like the best choice. Good hammer production from its hills and marble, very good food production (especially once HE helped it reclaim that banana tile), centrally located, coastal to build ships... plus it's on a hill for added defense. I settled this Great General as a military instructor; the next one I earned built a military academy in the city.

I then built up a few more Pikemen to fend off any of Caesar's Knights and rose on the power chart past him. Yes, I'd decided to go after the Romans. A few turns later, it was time:



Fortunately, I had managed to improve relations with Kublai. He traded Theology to me for Music, so I now had a new buddy. Sorry, Julie.

My first target was Arretium, which I razed:



This took considerable cultural pressure off of Istanbul and Edirne (where I later built the Forbidden Palace), including, at long last, giving me access to copper.

I then proceeded to Pisae:



Pisae I kept. The city doesn't have much going for it, but I figured it would serve as a lightning rod for Roman counter-attacks. As it turned out, I was wrong about that; Rome's counter-attacks were mostly directed at Bursa, from Rome's cities on either side of that former Ottoman city. Caesar also built up some units in his cities in the southwest corner of the continent (turns out he had 2 down there, I later discovered) and sent them against Magyar. The worst thing he managed to do was pillage Magyar's pig pasture.

Meanwhile, on the research front, lightbulbing Education with my next Great Scientist paid dividends:



I chose Astronomy for Galleons to ward off Caesar's Caravels, for Observatories, and in order to be able to get overseas trade going with Kublai and Brennus. I ignored Isabella in classic triangle diplomacy fashion; Kublai ended up warring with her, so it was best to avoid any "you traded with our worst enemies" demerits (though neither Kublai nor Brennus were fond of Frederick). I even joined Kublai in his anti-Spanish crusade for awhile. It was a phony war on my part, but it earned me a mutual military struggle bonus with the Mongolian.

Since he was being so friendly, I hit him up for a couple of choice techs once I had Liberalism in hand:



Sidebar: where the heck did I get all that gold, since I obviously don't have Economics for a Great Merchant yet, and I'm running a deficit? Several places. Most of the gold came from captured Roman cities. In addition, I sold a tech here and there (like Theology to Frederick for over 700 gold), sold my world map a few times to different leaders, and asked my old buddy Julius and my new buddy Kublai to spare some gold for their "good friend", attempted to build a couple of wonders that I knew I wouldn't complete (such as the Taj Mahal; Frederick and Brennus both beat me to Nationalism by several turns). Basically, I got gold from anywhere and everywhere. It financed my research throughout the round; I think I can count the number of turns where I had a budget surplus on the fingers of one hand! Of course I also kept building banks in the best commerce cities, along with markets and grocers where they were needed and/or would do the most good.

Back to the action: I normally don't like to trade Education, but I figured it might help maintain Kublai as a good tech trading partner. In addition, getting Banking right away meant I could try beating Frederick to Economics. Thanks to running research in the red for a few turns, I did! I sent the Great Merchant on a trade mission to Mongolia, and switched civics:



No one else was running Free Market (no one else had the civic), but Kublai was running Decentralization. Everybody switched to Mercantilism a few turns later, but I kept trading Economics to everybody. By the end of the round, Kublai and Brennus had both changed their economic civics to match mine. Yay!

The effects of Free Market were enhanced by the wonder I captured in the Roman capital:



The Great Lighthouse remained in effect until I got Corporation much later in the round.

Shortly thereafter, the Great Merchant made it to the Mongolian capital:



Very nice. That, along with the steady stream of war booty, financed research and a few upgrades for the rest of the round.

As I said, I kept trading my relatively-harmless techs:



IIRC, this also elevated Brennus to "Pleased". As I mentioned, the Celt switched to the Free Market civic several turns later, which certainly helped my bottom line. Brennus has been a busy boy; he built the Sistine Chapel, the Spiral Minaret, and the Taj Mahal (even beating Frederick to it!). Frederick managed to build Angkor Wat, in the Confucian holy city of Cologne, making it quite the plum. However, now that I had Divine Right, I had my eye on a different wonder, as you'll see.

The war against Rome continued as planned, with my forces sweeping through Roman territory in a counter-clockwise fashion. I got a pleasant surprise when I took Antium: a military academy! Though it isn't coastal, I decided to make it my 2nd military city; I settled my next Great General there as a military instructor. That's right, I started the round with a GG and earned two more. The Great Wall's bonus for GG points when fighting on home turf certainly helped. By the way, I can also report that Samurai with City Raider III promotions do indeed perform admirably against Musketmen--especially when they have Trebuchets helping out.

I ignored Rome's isolated cities in the northwest and southwest until later in the round. Strangely, even though I had pillaged and guarded Rome's lone horse tile south of Neapolis very early in the round, I was still coming up against the occasional Roman Knight. I eventually found out that sneaky Caesar had done an end-run around me and founded a city on that horse tile in my southwest back yard! Cheeky! Well, there was only one thing to do about that; I gathered together a makeshift stack in Maygar and did the obvious thing.



Razed, in case you're wondering. Notice anything interesting? Caesar isn't dead yet! I thought that was his last city. I traded a map with Brennus and discovered the awful truth. Seems there is a lone, one-tile island east of Rome, and Julius had managed to research Astronomy. I sat there thinking, he didn't, did he...?



Yup, he most certainly did. I had to scrounge up Galleon and three Grenadiers to try do finish him off. This is why the round took so long to complete. I knew I'd be launching a war against Frederick in the next round and didn't want to face "motherland" unhappiness in my formerly-Roman cities, in addition to war weariness.

Things weren't all bad, though. My buddy Brennus proved to be every bit as useful a tech trading partner as Kublai:



Yeah, I know, normally I don't like to trade a strategic tech like Chemistry, but I wanted Corporation and as you can see, it was a matter of giving Brennus the lesser of two evils.

I also completed my next wonder, in Rome:



Since the former Roman capital also houses the GM-producing Great Lighthouse (along with Chichen Itza), I may get another Great Merchant out of that city later on.

As for Rome's final, sad little city... It was guarded by 2 Praetorians. I figured my 3 Grenadiers, each with Combat III, would make mincemeat out of them. Well, guess again! Even after my Frigates had eliminated the city's defenses, the score was Japanese Grenadiers 1, Roman Praetorians 3! AAAARRRRGGHHH!! It would have been nice to have been Ragnar with his Berserkers at this point. I had to send the Galleon back to the mainland to fetch reinforcements, adding a few more turns to the end of the round. Finally, I prevailed:



Et tu, Brute? Yep... go stick a fork in yourself, Julie, 'cause you're done. I razed that city and fully expect the AI to settle there again, worthless as it is. Not a single resource! Go figure.

Whew! That took a lot longer than I thought it would, but Rome is no more, and Germany now trembles on my continent, surrounded on all sides by the mighty Japanese juggernaut, now consisting of Cavalry, Grenadiers, and Cannon! The next round promises to be fun, gang!

I'll post a "state of the world" update next, and we can discuss strategy for the great war of continental liberation!

Round 6, Part 2: The State of the World, 1583 AD

For starters, an interesting development: Brennus has declared war on Frederick!



However, I don't think I'm going to bother waiting until Brenny asks me to join in the fun. I'm planning on upgrading most of my Samurai, who are gathered in Konya, to Grenadiers, and going after Frederick right away.

Here's the map of my continent. Well, soon-to-be-my-continent:



So I think the first target should be Munich; my stack can move onto a hill right next to the city within a single turn. That would relieve cultural pressure on Konya (as well as helping to safeguard my military city and my capital, as well, from counter-attack). What about after that? Frederick is spread out a little, isn't he? I think Cologne would make sense as a second target, since depriving Freddy of his shrine (and Angkor Wat) would effectively yank the rug out from under him. But after that, what? Another counter-clockwise attack, leaving Essen and the two southwest cities for later? I'll have to be prepared to fend off German counter-attacks against Magyar and Satsuma.

Here's a look at the other continents:



Now that's the sort of interesting map I usually expect from fractal. Look at that choke point between Spain and Mongolia! And Kublai managed to sneak a city onto Isabella's sub-continent. Cheeky! And Brennus is pretty much off on his own, but is close enough for a galley to have given him contact with the other continent.

Since I'm aiming for a domination victory, let's see how close I am, now that we've seen the map:



Interesting... I'm closer on land area than population. Usually it's the other way around. Well, I'm research Physics right now for the free GS; after that, I figure I'll get Rifling, then Biology, and the latter should take care of the population criteria (that and the captured German cities). I anticipate having almost but not quite enough land from my continent for the win. It looks like snagging some of Isabella's territory should get me what I need. If not, I may have to take on Kublai. But that's a long ways off at this point.

The domestic advisor:



I just finished researching Steel, so Cannons and drydocks are the order of the day. Before the war with Frederick is done, I'll have to start building my invasion fleet to send against Spain.

Civics:



Now that the war with Rome is over and war weariness will not be an issue for some time, I think a change to Representation is in order. Does everyone agree? This would also allow me to save some money by disbanding some units I only have around for the HR happy. I also think a change to Free Religion may be a good idea, now that a lot of my basic infrastructure is built and Scientific Method has done in the research bonus from monasteries.

The power graph:



What can I say? I rule! Japan is indeed an awesome civ for warmongering, as I suspected. Those Samurai were fun while their heyday lasted--which, on Epic speed, was quite a while. They allowed me to take down two civilizations. That makes them, in my opinion, one of the better UUs in the game.

Demographics:



Oh, it's good to be number 1 for a change. Hmmm, except in approval rate and life expectancy... Ahem, citizens? There's a connection here. Love me more and you might live longer. No promises, though.

Top 5 cities and wonders:



Wow! Look at Brennus go! And he's not even Industrious! Isolation apparently has its advantages.

Foreign relations:



Pretty much what I want them to be. Two buddies who share a religion and no borders, and two targets.

Techs, overall:



And compared to Kublai:



And to Frederick:



I don't expect Kublai to trade Rifling to me; he seems reluctant to trade at "Pleased" unless 2 other civs know the tech. I'll have to research it on my own, which I plan on doing once Physics is done.

As for Frederick, I suspect that he's researching Rifling too, or soon will be, what with Brennus declaring war on him, and me about to dog-pile. I haven't seen any German Grenadiers yet, but Cavalry can counter them pretty effectively, and I have Cavalry. Not to mention Cannons. Of course, Freddy may also bee-line to Military Tradition, which makes Rifling after Physics very important.

In fact, if I start seeing German Cavalry while I'm still researching Physics, I think I should jump over to Rifling. Only Frederick has SM, so he's my only rival for the free GS. If he's researching military techs, he won't be close to Physics for awhile.

Active trades:



I'll get the sugar back soon enough. Heh.

Unless anyone has some radically different ideas, I think I have the overall strategy at this stage: Germany, then Spain for the domination win. What I need most, I think, are specific tactics, such as which German cities to attack and in what order, how to best fend off counter-attacks in my southwest rear, what techs to research in what order, and so on.

A few minor items: I should also mention that I eventually gave up putting it anywhere else and built the National Epic in Kyoto to accelerate the Great Scientists. Cologne already has a shrine and will likely be the Wall Street city. Any suggestions for the Ironworks city? Since Istanbul didn't get any other national wonders and has plenty of riverside tiles for watermills, I think it should go there, but as always, I'm interested in everyone else's suggestions.

Time to learn how to use the Draft... After researching Rifling, Switch to Representation/Nationhood/Theocracy and draft an army while you build Granadiers/Cavalry/Canons in your main production cities.

I count that you have 18 cities... that means you can draft an army of 18 Riflemen in 6 turns all with 4 promotions, combined with your Veteran CR3 units you' steamroll over Fredrick's nation in no time.

I suggest keeping your samurais as they are, and build new grenadiers until you have enough $ generating naturally.
Why? to fund research! Why 70% when you could run 80, 90 or 100%?
Your samurais are superior to macemen, and your naturally built grenadiers are superior to normal grenadiers, so I'd say you don't really need to lose those advantages for getting the usual macemen>grenadiers.
Of course, if you're swimming in money, it's different, but that wasn't my impression.
I wouldn't bother with representation. How many specialists do you run? + you need to grow, so you won't be running that many more.
You'll be switching to Universal Suffrage soon. Just wait.
Free religion? YES! why isn't it done yet
Your buddies are christians and you're not!

About next war, I'll finish 6/10 cannons, a handful of grenadiers and go for munich. If Brennus asks for help before that, good for you.
Going after Isabella next will be easy : you're going to need 3 to 5% land. A handful of spanish cities will do the trick.
Do you want the shrine that badly? I'd go counter clock wise without any second thoughts. It's easier to defend, you'll be getting culture from the ex roman cities = not too much starvation and you'll have an open way to bring troops.
Cologne will fall soon enough, it's not worth the detour unless it's culture is hurting your cities, which is very possible for a shrine city. :crazyeyes: (that's a good contradictory advice ).
About teching, rifling > physics. What do you expect your great scientist to offer ? 1/5 of biology?
Remember you're protective and agressive = Marvelous draftees riflemen.
They're just as good as level 4 riflemen for the other civs

Attack plan would Be munich Frankfurt Hamburg Berlin Cologne Essen if you ask me. During that campaign it is very easy to get reinforcements from the top cities so you will hardly have to wait for the next city to conquer, especially if you are going to draft like mad Just steamroll over it and be done with Freddy.

One request though, don't make it look so easy I get the feeling that you didn't even had to break a sweat during the first two wars.

kniteowl said:

Time to learn how to use the Draft... After researching Rifling, Switch to Representation/Nationhood/Theocracy and draft an army while you build Granadiers/Cavalry/Canons in your main production cities.

I count that you have 18 cities... that means you can draft an army of 18 Riflemen in 6 turns all with 4 promotions, combined with your Veteran CR3 units you' steamroll over Fredrick's nation in no time.

Click to expand...

I like this idea.

Once rifling's in the bag, you've got all the tech you need to kill Fred and Isa so send stacks of drafted rifles and cannon to Spain while fighting Germany on your own turf. Crank the slider up to deal with WW (it'll also help with the tile grab) and go for the quickest win possible from this position.

My vote is to put several cavalry on ships ... sail them just outside the cultural boundaries of Berlin ... then on the turn you declare war swoop in and deposit them all around the city. Pillage every square into the dirt.

I don't know if this technique still works in civ4, but if it does, then every landlocked city will lose connectivity to the capital, and consequently lose health, happiness, and the ability to build cavalry.

any worry that Brennus will end up on your continent? maybe setting up shop in Berlin before you get there? regardless of what it would do the AI in terms of maint. cost, it would be a bit irritating to see it happen. i remember a past game where an AI declared on you (might have been Napoleon if i have my facts straight), and a couple of turns later you happened across his army floating your way in tiny boats..as if he planned it ahead of time.

seems like you have the idea to hit Freddy right away, how soon is now?

Solid play. Looks like the benefits of playing on epic are showing up

Also looks like you could go up a skill level

Wow, nice power rating there, Sisiutil! I just finished my first Warlords game with Toku and at even power the AIs were falling like flies. So whatever you have now is more than enough to go after Frederick. One stack going Munich - Frankfurt - Hamburg and another one Essen - Cologne, both converging on Berlin seems like an easy way to do things.

Research-wise you can go Physics-Biology if you really want the GS, but seriously, with the troops you have you can finish the game right now without worrying about research. Maybe you could head for Combustion once Rifling is in the bag to speed up your overseas invasion. You can even leave Biology for after Combustion. Once the final attack is on the way you can farm everything back home to grow your population.

Anyway, I see you got Liberalism after all! Great job there! And great game overall. Toku's a monster, isn't he?

Sisiutil said:

Notice anything interesting? Caesar isn't dead yet! I thought that was his last city. I traded a map with Brennus and discovered the awful truth. Seems there is a lone, one-tile island east of Rome, and Julius had managed to research Astronomy. I sat there thinking, he didn't, did he...?

Yup, he most certainly did.

Click to expand...

If it were my game, I would've left him alone. I'm very fond of the "Exiled to Elba" approach -- not sure if it's because I'm too timid to completely wipe out a civilization, or I'm a sick cold-hearted bastard who enjoys leaving a rival with a fate worse than death. This actually reminds me of one of my games, where JC avoided total annihiliation, except it took me several centuries to finally discover where he escaped to:



Now, onto other things:

Why, oh WHY did you trade for Corporation?? You've got the Great Lighthouse, 2/3 of your cities are coastal, and you're not ready to build Wall Street yet...and you traded CHEMISTRY for it??? You're really going for the trades in this game, aren't you?

Other than that, excellent round as always. I would skip Physics for now and start researching Rifling right away; 8 turns is too long to wait. You're at the point in the game where Great Scientists aren't really good for anything except triggering a golden age, so it's no biggie if you miss this one. Heck, this game's pretty much a mop-up operation at this point.

Attack Freddy any way you see fit -- only recommendation I'd give is to raze Dortmund, and replace it with 2 cities, one 2S for the horses, and another 1E of those city ruins in the desert for the wine & oil (the AI will settle there if you don't!) Hamburg's one tile off the coast, ugh...if you don't mind razing a 10 pop city, I'd move it. Might want to check if there's any Wonders there, though. The other cities look find as they are (Munich isn't exactly optimal, but it's not worth moving) and I'm sure they will all be very glad to join your empire.

futurehermit said:

Also looks like you could go up a skill level

Click to expand...

I don't think we can say that yet. Epic speed + warmongering + a quality advisory board D) = probable win. Well, Toku traits' lend themselves well to warmongering, so that's perfectly fine, but we can't take this stroll in the park for granted in the next few games.

As for civics, I see no problem with Representation, though you might consider Theocracy instead of Free Religion until the war's over, so you can "spy" on Freddy's Hindu cities. You look all set up for Free Religion when you need it, looks like Freddy's been busy Confucianizing your cities, hasn't he?

No German Grenadiers? Other than that one sitting on a Hill outside Cologne? Oh, and a totally nifty little bit of graphics is the way the Walls (or Castle) in Hamburg juts out to protect the Stonehenge graphic. Good eye candy.

I like the idea of drafting Rifles, because you can upgrade a couple Samurai to Grenadiers for protection and the CR3 ones to Rifles. Cannons are the key, I think, because two (three or four if you count the southern cities, but you may want to play defense there to keep his finances jacked) of Freddy's cities could fall in the first turn if you have enough. The AI upgrades slowly unless at war, and he'll keep those obsolete units in place until you actually declare. With two major cities down, Fred will only be able to upgrade and counterattack once before he's reduced to cowering on defense. The quicker you can get an offense up and running, the quicker you consolidate-- and the draft is perty darn quick.

Is it worth keeping a ship out to the west to see if Brennus gets any funny ideas about landing a force in that city? You're buddies, and are crushing him in power-- but you never can tell with the AI, especially if he sees three lightly defended cities close at hand. I've had war declared on me for less, although that was before the patch. Just askin'.

Also worth considering is whether Vassalizing Fred will provide enough land/pop to win when you take out Izzy. If you blitz enough cities, and crush the counterattack, I think he'll capitulate, but it might not be worth the couple turns off the final score if you end up having to tackle Kublai. Or is that out of character for Toku?

jerVL/kg said:

Why, oh WHY did you trade for Corporation?? You've got the Great Lighthouse, 2/3 of your cities are coastal, and you're not ready to build Wall Street yet...and you traded CHEMISTRY for it??? You're really going for the trades in this game, aren't you?

Click to expand...

In my defense, I simply changed my mind. I was planning on building Wall Street in Istanbul, remember? That was still my plan when I made the trade. But as the war with Rome drew to a close and Frederick kept spreading Confucianism into my cities, I decided that Cologne would be a better location (which is also why it will probably be the 2nd city I'll take, to get it to work on WS ASAP).

So it sounds like everyone's urging a switch to researching Rifling, then back to Physics, and I agree. Since Frederick is my only rival for Physics' free GS and I'm about to deal him a series of crippling blows, I think I can afford that, especially since, as has been pointed out, the free GS is not nearly as important in this game.

I also like the idea of a civics switch to Nationalism and Theocracy for a few turns to draft Riflemen. Sounds like fun.

Brennus has already established a foothold on the continent, a little city on the coast south of Bursa. I don't know what he's planning on doing in this war he's declared, so I'll have to wait and see. If Izzy's land doesn't gain me the win, it might be easier to just declare on Brennus and take any cities he has on my chunk o' land.

Sisiutil said:

I also like the idea of a civics switch to Nationalism and Theocracy for a few turns to draft Riflemen. Sounds like fun.

Click to expand...

play to win of course, but if it goes that route it would be educational for me. i very rarely do that myself, and when i do i'm not sure i do it in the most effective manner.

and i like hearing about the trades others consider , gives me food for thought sometimes. not suggesting you do them JUST to hear comments of course *giggle*.

patagonia said:

I like this idea.

Once rifling's in the bag, you've got all the tech you need to kill Fred and Isa so send stacks of drafted rifles and cannon to Spain while fighting Germany on your own turf. Crank the slider up to deal with WW (it'll also help with the tile grab) and go for the quickest win possible from this position.

Click to expand...

Agreed. One quick round of drafting will cover your rear better than a pair of Prince's open-ended chaps (which he thankfully did NOT wear at the Super Bowl).

And that doesn't even take into account using a second round of draftee's like Patagonia's suggesting - offensive troops to take Spain. I think he's right, with drafting plus your already-produced military you could fight a two-front war and end this thing fast.