G-Minor 15: February's Vanilla Gauntlet

uwsublime said:

Would love to see some strat posts in the other thread, or even some helpful tips here before I give it a shot...

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I did a writeup of my 6 HOF Diplo Diety games on the various size maps. I'm interested to see if someone can pull off a "regular" game where you set up a few cities or conquer a few. If you read the writeup, the secret to all my games was OCC. It's easy, you don't have to worry about the land grab and it's not too hard to keep peace when you get to pick your opponents. Seems counter-intuitive, you only get about 10-15 votes, but still can win a true diplomatic victory.

WT: i was in the middle of re-reading your writeups when i saw this new post. i'm going to try a diplo OCC, altho i certainly won't try diety as my first OCC of any kind ever!! but it seems OCC games are a lot quicker than normal, and should be quite easy to micromanage. i infinitely prefer diplo wins where i need other votes and don't have enough myself, it feels so anticlimatic just to vote myself in to get the game done quicker. OCC is certainly the ultimate version of that.

uwsublime: yeah the major thread is boring as heck! seems we settlers are having way more fun, altho the fact that our games are so quick probably is a major factor.

uwsublime said:

WT: Your questions about the academy were the same questions I had about the pyramids, because I find it harder to get the pyramids up early then the academy, and the pyramids also give a 50% bonus for *most* of your research...

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Pyramids:
Actually, in a specialist economy, cities get about 80-90% research boost from pyramids. And that's all cities, not just one for 50%.

I don't see the pyramids as being such a painful investment. In my last game, I built the pyramids in 3 turns with only 5 forests in the capitol. I have Stone of course. A forge, Math, and Bureaucracy. And since I'm Saladin, I turn on Organized Religion. That's 50% for math and 200% on top of that. I think 1 forest is 135 hammers.

Academy:
I looked at a few of my games. Even in the games where I cottaged my capitol, an academy would only add an average of ~30 beakers/turn over the 80 years and I think that's generous. So that's 2400-- about the same as lightbulbing. For some of my games it's more like 20 beakers/turn for 60 turns, so that's only 1200. Here are the real problems though...

1) The city that rushes the GS loses a lot of growth--either food or cottage growth.

2) you're running specialists before the pyramids and before Pacifism which is not very efficient.

3) your city that makes a GE has to go to 300 now instead of 150. That means you have to hold back your other GP farms. There's no time for that if you're trying to finish research in ~125 turns.

uwsublime said:

(if I play again) and use the extra GSci for PPress.

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PPress? Why not Education?

KMadCandy said:

yeah the major thread is boring as heck! seems we settlers are having way more fun, altho the fact that our games are so quick probably is a major factor.

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Even I haven't tried the major yet. Hopefully after this ends everyone will try it. You'll find the major a quicker game, especially if you play OCC. These settler games are longer because you have to run around the whole map popping huts.

I don't think I'm going to get another chance at this one so 470AD I will end on (still 500 years better than I thought) so time to move to major :gulp

I don't see the pyramids as being such a painful investment. In my last game, I built the pyramids in 3 turns with only 5 forests in the capitol. I have Stone of course. A forge, Math, and Bureaucracy. And since I'm Saladin, I turn on Organized Religion. That's 50% for math and 200% on top of that. I think 1 forest is 135 hammers.

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I'm still a relative beginner here... Math gives 50% bonus to hammers? I never knew... I've been researching math late in the game...

I see it in the tech description now... Never really paid attention to that before.

I also just had my best ever starting location for this gauntlet, and also popped 2 settlers and a worker very early. I decided to try a more pyramid-centric approach, and also tried to guarantee a GE first... Unfortunately my teching basically froze-up during my pyramid building and GEing phase, and I had to crank it up before the GE popped I was just way too far behind... This caused a GS to pop instead with 30% odds, and I still never caught up to my tech pace. I think I could have managed sub 400BC on this start with an early GS and an academy and building the pyramids very late (1200-1500BC) assuming I still managed a GE, but I've been getting GEs as my 3rd GPerson pretty regularly. By the time I'm working on my 3rd GP I generally have the forge already built and Pacifism in play and am working on the pyramids in that city. I usually only have to turn my tech off for 10-15 turns in the other cities to let that city (usually capital) pop the GE. I think this penalty is much smaller then holding off all scientist specialists till post GE popping. I really couldn't get any kind of tech going at all with a non financial civ on cottages... Just wasn't happening. Didn't have enough workers to build enough cottages and still hook up resources and chop what I was building. I know that strat works as WT has made obvious, but I think I personally can do better with an academy.

Hey WT - What is the point in the OCC? If the AI can still have a million cities, what advantage do you get from crippling yourself?... I went ahead and attempted it on deity, and I got an absolutely beautiful starting spot, but Cathy kicked my butt with about 15 units in 1510BC...

1. Can build Oxford-Globe-etc with only one uni/theatre/etc, I've never found 6 cities worth an uni.
2. Don't pick agressors like Cathy

uwsublime said:

I see it in the tech description now... Never really paid attention to that before.

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I wasn't like that originally. They wanted to make early chopping worse in patch 1.52 or 1.61. So actually there is a -33% penalty for chopping before Math. So, if I did the calculation correctly I get 350% boost to hammers.

1 forest = 30
with math = 45
with stone = 90
with forge/bureau/Org.Rel = 135

Lexad said:

1. Can build Oxford-Globe-etc with only one uni/theatre/etc, I've never found 6 cities worth an uni.
2. Don't pick agressors like Cathy

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Um... I was going to make the exact same 2 points. Let me emphasize it is all about the Oxford. IIRC you want to get it built around 1 AD, probably 500 AD is fine.

I'd say one game out of about eight you will get attacked early on. I don't think there is anything you can do to prevent it. It must just be a random chance that a Pleased civ chooses you. Maybe it happens when they run out of space to expand. They roll the dice and your number comes up. If they don't bring a stack and they're not your direct neighbor you might survive it. It's best to bribe someone else to join you in the war if you can.

But if you pick the peaceful civs, you won't get attacked late game (unless you risk running a religion). You just need to get past that early war possibility with a little luck.

1010 AD. Would have been under 700BC if Izzy (damn her!) hadn't build the Oracle, and I had coordinated the Pyramids/GE better.

Honestly, This SE stuff is driving me nuts.

Early on I thought that Oasis would be the logical choice for this gauntlet, but I wasn't sure if there would be enough food specials and I know stone is in the middle of the desert. I was lured by the food that the east side of Great Plains always offered. Then found that the west side of GPlains had stone and really good food too. (If I have time to play this again) I'm going back to my original pick. Why is Oasis the logical choice? It has the most land squares by far, and that means the most huts. It also has the wonderful combination of Stone and LOTS of Flood Plains. Here are a few tips I picked up a long time ago about Oasis (might double check some of these "facts"): You always start on the south side, so you know to head north for the floodplains/stone. IIRC, players alternate between north and south starts. So if you care, you can choose your neighbors. Players 2, 4, and 6 start in the north. (You could try setting your player number to 2 and see if you get a north start, but that might not work.)

I think someone here reported that they were already using Oasis. Anyone have any comments on it?

Yes, I wanted to start Oasis and tried and get a start in the north (for horses which are always north) but also had to realize, that you cannot spawn there.
Where do you have all the knowledge anout Oasis from?

WT: I decided against oasis because it seems like the good city sites are usually too spread out... I also managed to get stone in the east of a Great Plains map (the one I tried pyramid strat on) along with 4 (yes 4) food specials in my fat cross of my capital... Was near 4 other good city sites. Best map ever, and I blew it. Anyway, when you talked me into the OCC for the major, I went back to Oasis, because it simply has the best early beaker city sites... Actually the ones on the south side. 2-3 Gems + a couple food/health specials just freaking rocks. Immediate (with mine) 7-8 gold on 1 tile can't be beat.

Finally improved to 410 AD.
Great luck with GH, 5 (yes, five) settlers and 2 workers, but a horrible map, lack of food resources, and not much happiness, too.
Not a single settler built, short war to eliminate an AI and to grab some resources.

Good timing for scientists, 2 artists for MM (but you need monarchy too, this time the AI did not discovered it, then i learned).

Stone in capital FC, marble far, but a courthouse helped.
No errors, won the first vote with 76 on 74 required .
But you need a lot of luck to find a good map and to have good results from the huts.

I think i'm done with this gauntlet.

Congrats superslug, i think this gauntlet is the most crowded ever... 33 listed submissions (2 minutes ago)... to be in the top ten has a meaning (i'm now 12th with my previous 530 AD).

Edit after WastinTime #218
thanks, infos in that thread seem useful

Airny said:

Where do you have all the knowledge anout Oasis from?

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I read a post over a year ago by the creator of the map scripts from the Firaxis team. Hey look, I found it! here

Here's the relevant part and it does mention changing your number to start in the north...

Oasis

Regional Map: No world wrap
Land-Heavy Map: 52 plots wide, 32 plots tall, at "Standard" map size
Neutral Zone: Nobody ever starts in the desert region in the middle of the map.
Teams Alternate: Lowest team number starts in the south, next in the north, etc.
Assymetrical: The south gets more arable land but fewer resources.
Nile-Style Rivers: There are always four rivers, running randomly from south to north.

Resources Anywhere: Cow, Coal, Copper, Uranium
Southern Resources: Dye, Fur, Gems, Silk (rare!), Sugar, Banana, Deer, Pig, Rice
Northern Resources: Horses, Marble, Fur, Silver, Spices, Wine, Sheep, Wheat, and seafoods.
Oasis-Region: Aluminum, Corn (abundant!), Iron, Oil, Stone, Gold, Incense, Ivory

In Single Player: You will always start in the south, unless you use the Advanced options and swap your team number with the first AI listed (or similar action).

uwsublime said:

Anyway, when you talked me into the OCC for the major, I went back to Oasis, because it simply has the best early beaker city sites... Actually the ones on the south side. 2-3 Gems + a couple food/health specials just freaking rocks. Immediate (with mine) 7-8 gold on 1 tile can't be beat.

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I can tell you have a natural talent for this game. For my OCC Diplo games I tell the map generator to just show me gems starts. They do rock. The problem with gold is that you can't work it and expect to grow your city and produce an Academy. I've also been known to go with Fur on a river, but that's really a poor substitute.