ALC Game 13: Mali/Mansa Musa

If you want Stonehenge that badly, build it in your capital -- Timbuktu has more forest that needs chopping anyway, and could use the cultural defense against Kublai's encroaching borders. I don't think you have a prayer of building it either way, though -- 1240BC is the ideal time to finish Stonehenge, not begin it. :lol:

My choice for city #3 would be 1S of the pigs, unfortunately it looks like Izzy's too close to build a city there...

Kudos to the barbs for denying Kublai his precious horses! :goodjob: You can take that city if you like, or start marshalling for war. I would found cities #3 & #4, then start cranking out chariots & skirmishers like no tomorrow, while waiting for the iron to get hooked up. Forget about building Wonders -- Kublai needs to DIE, and soon! It's possible you can even take Kublai's two closest cities with Skirmishers & Chariots alone, just overwhelm him by sheer force of numbers.
 
The Iron city site looks like a go. I'd monitor Izzy to see what she does before rushing to claim the Fish site. It looks like you'll want to keep at least one of Kublai's cities once you decide it's time for war. That would give you your fourth city.

I'd only go for the Fish site right away if you see Izzy coming in your direction.

Also, I don't know if you absolutely need Open Borders to have religion spread to you. I recall at least one game I played in which I founded a religion and it spread to a neighbor who I didn't have Open Borders with. So you may want to keep your borders closed to Izzy to keep her from beelining to land that you take from Kublai.
 
Shame about the iron. In my game, I founded fishville first and researched IW while building the second settler. So I was able to found a city 1N of Djenne's location. It was a close call though, I beat Mehmed there by about half a turn.

If you're able to grab the second iron, that's fine. But the chances are that someone's going to be there before you. In that case, remember that you've got elephants.
 
I'm also playing a shadow (seems to be catching). By 1300 I'd built fishville, Isabella beat me to greendot, Kublai had beaten me to bluedot and I was getting hemmed in fast. OTOH I completed Oracle for MC in 1300bc. Reason I'd prioritised Oracle over third city was that once I'd seen Isabella I was pretty confident that she'd found a religion or two. However AI generally ain't good at building shrines so as well as the free tech I wanted some GP points from Oracle and I'd already lined up Isabella as my first victim.
On this map metals aint as important as usual, you've got ivory for elephants if required and gems give you a major research boost to aim for construction.
 
It's late for stonehenge,but the gold provided could be good if you fail :).
I'd try, but not with too much chopping :
- prechopping yes, chopping no ;) : you could research mathematics (or better trade for it : alphabet is cool) in the meantime to get a better output if you (unlikely) get a chance to finish the chops.
 
Don’t waste your resources on Stonehenge. At this difficulty level it is likely that one of the other civilisations has almost completed it. Those hammers would be better spent on a worker or settler and save those trees for another wonder.

A religion can spread to your cities even if your borders are closed. This is true.

Your next settler should be settling west to claim the iron resource. I would start connecting a road so you take advantage of the iron and build units in your capital.

Instead of researching mysticism for the monuments, how about researching writing instead? A library can be built to spread culture and has the benefit of a 25% increase to research. After getting writing, you can make a beeline for mathematics and construction for catapults and elephant units. You could play peacefully, however, and you may want to go for Alphabet and Literacy for tech trading and the Great Library. (Trade technology for mysticism with Isabella, improving relations with her.)

In terms of diplomacy, I would try to get buddism to make Isabella happy. You would rather her liking you than hating you. Perhaps you can get her to war against your enemies in the future. Kublai needs to be stopped however. Kublai also has some nice cities for you to conquer, as well as a religious founding city for you to exploit. You have more to gain from beating Kublai than you would Isabella.
 
Kublai needs to be stopped however. Kublai also has some nice cities for you to conquer, as well as a religious founding city for you to exploit. You have more to gain from beating Kublai than you would Isabella.

true. however, the joy of killing isabella is quite fun and a gain in itself. that can wait, tho.
 
true. however, the joy of killing isabella is quite fun and a gain in itself.

I'm playing a shadow game that has a very different feel than the one discussed in this thread (I researched Iron Working very early since I saw I had no chance at getting Copper and I lucked out in being able to found a city 1 square north of the Pig-Elephant city making mine an Elephant/Pig-Iron city. :) )

In that game, the large majority of my cash per turn is coming from Madrid with a Shrine.

Remember, kids: the only good Isabella is a dead Isabella.
 
Round 3: 1240 BC to 640 BC

To start the round, I took the advice many of you proffered and decided to abandon all hope of Stonehenge, changing the build in Djenne with no loss of hammers (or free gold, but them's the breaks).

ALC13_640BC_05.jpg


A few turns later, I founded my 3rd city in order to claim the iron, silk, and stone... but not the pigs, as you'll see later!

ALC13_640BC_06.jpg


1S of the pigs, as flamingzaroc121 suggested, was not possible; it was 2 tiles from the Spanish city (sight unseen at this point, but I could tell by the borders). The city's first build was, of course, a monument. I chopped the forest atop the silk to hurry it along. I also had the Worker build roads on that and the adjacent grassland tile, something I also did south of Timbuktu once the 2nd gems were hooked up. I was tired of jungle growing over tiles on me!

I had finished Pottery earlier in the round and then finished researching the next recommended tech:

ALC13_640BC_07.jpg


I chose Alphabet as the next tech to research; I figured I'd put it off long enough, and the tech board would be helpful for determining what I needed to research next. Also, I immediately obtained open borders agreements with everyone so I could scope out their territory. Checking Kublai's nearest city was interesting:

ALC13_640BC_08.jpg


Hmmm... not very well defended, is it? And that mere 20% cultural defense isn't too intimidating.

In 850 BC, my 4th city was founded, again as recommended, on the coast:

ALC13_640BC_09.jpg


A couple of turns after this, I got word that the Oracle had been completed. I don't think we would have had a chance at it in this game, seeing as how we lack both marble and the industrial trait.

In 700 BC, Kumbi Saleh's borders finally popped--but it was too little too late:

ALC13_640BC_10.jpg


Darn that Isabella and her early religions! Everyone's prediction about tussling over the pigs was correct. This is why I started building a very expensive library in the city--hoping to reclaim the piggies. By the way Obsydian, that's why I don't build libraries this early instead of monuments: they're darned expensive, 90 hammers to the monuments' 30. As you can see, a brand new city will struggle to build one until it has sufficient tile improvements and population to work them and provide the hammers.

If Buddhism spreads to KS, which I think likely, it will add to its cultural clout. I'll be building quite a bit of culture here as I struggle to gain and hang on to the city's only decent source of food. At least this way, Isabella may save me several worker turns by building a pasture and road on the tile. Yes, I'm a glass-is-half-full kinda guy.

Oh yes, and my worker got busy getting that iron mined. Yay!

In 685 BC, I got word of another wonder being completed:

ALC13_640BC_11.jpg


I don't know how many turns that is exactly, but I think I may have had a very slim chance to claim Stonehenge. Oh well. One benefit of the monuments is that they last and keep contributing culture after Calendar; you just can't build any more of them. And after 1000 years, their cultural output doubles, right?

Kublai continues to be annoying. He founded another city close to my borders:

ALC13_640BC_12.jpg


Given the upcoming cultural fight over the pigs, I'm tempted to go after Isabella. However, most of her territory kinda sucks. Kublai, on the other hand, has lots of good land. And he's being much more annoying than Isabella. I think I'll likely have both religions spread to my cities in the next round, so I can likely choose whichever way I want to go.

One turn later, my next tech was available:

ALC13_640BC_13.jpg


I haven't made any tech trades yet, but here's how everyone stands with me.

Mehmed is being difficult and refusing me anything:

ALC13_640BC_15.jpg


Isabella is being stingy with her religious techs:

ALC13_640BC_16.jpg


While Kublai's annoyance factor went down a notch when he offered me this trade:

ALC13_640BC_14.jpg


He has Mathematics on me, which is troubling, if he goes after Construction next for catapults and elephants. He's offering the best trade, and no one else has anything that he can trade for... yet. So I'm thinking of taking it. What does everyone else think? And does this mean I should leave him be, keeping him as a tech trading partner? Or does it merely reinforce the idea that he should die before he gets too big for his britches?

On a lighter note, I find it amusing that he's expanded so much into the jungle and still doesn't have iron working, nor attempted to trade for it. Stupid AI!

At any rate, that's were the round ended. As you can see, I selected Mathematics to research next--is that the best choice? Kublai may loosen up and offer it in trade soon. Another option is Polytheism -> Literature to get started on the Great Library. There again, Isabella may loosen her grip on the prerequisite tech. I hate duplicating the efforts of the AI, but sometimes it's necessary.

I myself am leaning towards Polytheism and Literature. I may not get that marble from Kublai in time to help with the GL, and some other civ out there is proving adept and wonder-building. The capital would be the place for it, I think, and several chops would be needed.

Here's a look at the map:

ALC13_640BC_18.jpg


ALC13_640BC_17.jpg


And the domestic advisor:

ALC13_640BC_19.jpg


The iron will be on line in 2 turns, just in time for Timbuktu to start on a Swordsman once the Chariot is complete. I have a finished Skirmisher in that city as well, and the capital and Djenne both have barracks now. I was thinking of going after the barb city, but should I just jump on Kublai ASAP and not waste any more time? Then again, Kublai has no horses, so I'm sure the barb city is looking tempting to him. And taking it would give me time to get a couple of Swordsmen and Axemen built. Hmmm...

Below is the saved game file.
 
i don't have much experience playing against KK so i don't know how dangerous it is to leave him til later, or how handy of a trading partner he can be. given that, my first thoughts are...

he has no horses but he does have elephants. and his UB is the bonus-exp version of stables i think. too lazy to change to warlords to check atm, i'm mid-vanilla game. if my memory's right on those things, then if i was a horseless dude whose UU is a horse archer, i'd just be heading straight to jumbos, never mind the ponies. yeah the barb city is a keeper for whoever gets it, but i'm not convinced that it's tempting to him atm. he may be thinking bigger, in which case i'd trade for math so that i can get construction when he does or sooner. if he builds the ger-thingies his jumbos are gonna be tougher than ours. very possible i'm giving him too much credit.

"One benefit of the monuments is that they last and keep contributing culture after Calendar; you just can't build any more of them. And after 1000 years, their cultural output doubles, right?" yes. in culture games i've been known to build actual monuments and then stonehenge just for that reason! (ps if you're charismatic the +1 happy face goes obsolete at calendar)

as usual this post represents only my rambling thoughts and not, like, actual useful advice or anything, i leave that to the pros. things i say in ALC threads should only be taken as absolute truth where i flat out specify (like the monuments question).
 
If you think you have time/muscle to quickly take the barb city, I'd go for it. Otherwise, Booblai Khan needs to die soon. You really can't risk him getting elephants.
 
Well no unpleasant surprises that round. :)

I think it's clear that at some point you're going to have to take over Kublai's land, but the question is when. Although you could try to take his closest cities now after a quick buildup of swords, you're going to want cats to deal with Karakorum's cultural defenses. Also I checked the save and Beshbalik now has walls, so it won't be as easy as you thought. So maybe waiting until you've researched Construction would be best.

Researching Construction now will probably mean giving up on GL, but I'm not sure how valuable GL will be in this game anyway. One of the best ways to leverage the Spiritual trait IMO is to switch between slavery + OR/theocracy and caste system + pacifism (+ representation if possible). You actually have a fair amount of food surplus in your cities, so you should be able to run a good number of scientists when in caste system. This should lead to a significant number of Great Scientists, so do you really need a boost in that area from GL?

If you decide to wait for Construction to take on Kublai you should probably look to take the barb city ASAP.

A couple of other points:
I wouldn't worry too much about getting control of that pig tile from Isabella. The AI is generally bad at generating culture in its cities. The presence of Buddhism gave Seville a little head start in culture, but you should easily be able to overcome it. Unless a wonder gets built in Seville. :(

You're still not building enough workers. Why not let Timbuktu build a worker while waiting for the iron to get hooked up?

You also haven't built a single cottage yet. Your gems aren't going to pay the bills forever. You've dropped from near the top to mid-pack in GNP.
 
Something to consider when deciding on war is whether your economy can sustain more cities so that might influence your tech path; on the other hand Glib remains a tasty wonder and elephants/cats is also worthwhile. Tricky. I was kind of surprised that you'd traded alphabet so early.
 
Take the tech trade with Kublai if you want to, but if you are planning on keeping Isa and Mehmed around, remember that's a whole lot of cheap tech to count for WFYABTA (as per VoU's thread it shouldn't affect the civs elsewhere on the globe though).

As you've noticed, Kublai doesn't have anything better than archers at the moment, and hasn't discovered IW. However, he does have a source of iron in his territory, and elephants. I'd seriously consider whipping a couple of swords in the capital as soon as the iron's online and taking Beshbalik early to deny him any military resources. After that, he'll be easy pickings.
 
Something to consider when deciding on war is whether your economy can sustain more cities so that might influence your tech path; on the other hand Glib remains a tasty wonder and elephants/cats is also worthwhile.Tricky.
MM with 2 gems can certainly afford a good bunch of cities.
I'd go for mathematics >currency while taking away KK improved cities (finishing off maybe debatable, sueing for peace after taking away horses from him may be better).



I was kind of surprised that you'd traded alphabet so early.
He didn't, but he should.
There is only one thing to consider here : if you give KK alphabet he will go for litterature and the GL. You may want to let him finish :lol:
 
As you can see, I selected Mathematics to research next--is that the best choice? Kublai may loosen up and offer it in trade soon. Another option is Polytheism -> Literature to get started on the Great Library. There again, Isabella may loosen her grip on the prerequisite tech. I hate duplicating the efforts of the AI, but sometimes it's necessary.

AI's won't trade monopoly techs, so someone else has to get Math before Kublai will trade it. And they won't trade a tech if they're building its wonder either, so if he starts HG, he won't trade Math. That's probably why Izzy won't trade Poly, she's most likely building a Parth or ToA.
 
If it were me playing, I'd go for war as early as possible, taking out KK's source of Elephants. If I'm seeing right that means you'd be the only one with Ivory. For me that clearly calls for Maths & Construction (you also need Masonry for Construction). I know, if someone on the other continent actually gets the Great Library and they are peaceful overall you might find yourself behind, but giving up a War Elephants/Catapults/Skirmishers attack just makes me cry. And this way you could use your unique unit too to protect the stacks. Of course, the first war will come earlier, but you have Iron so it shouldn't be a problem.

Edit: As for trades: you really want to give up Alphabet to get one useful tech? Masonry if you go Maths -> Construction or Poly if you go for Literature. Go to war and extort the ones you don't research on your own.
 
Edit: As for trades: you really want to give up Alphabet to get one useful tech? Masonry if you go Maths -> Construction or Poly if you go for Literature. Go to war and extort the ones you don't research on your own.

KK is the most advanced, he won't trade away alphabet.
So it's no big deal (unless he bribes the other ones into the war with this same tech?)
 
i'd misread the picture and not seen that math was redded out on KK's side. yeah my vote is kick his butt.

There is only one thing to consider here : if you give KK alphabet he will go for literature and the GL. You may want to let him finish :lol:

cabert is a wise soul sometimes! i think this is one of those times. the detour to lit would give you time to catch up on math/const. is KK likely to build the GLib in a city where it's useful, i hope?

ps at other times cabert is just a smartmouth :P
 
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