ALC Game 13: Mali/Mansa Musa

cabert said:

shall I change (again) my "title" to smartmouth?

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no comment. as if i don't fit into that and the big mouth category myself!

cabert said:

And to answer this one, we just may consider that playing a financial leader leads to cottage spamming = academies are a good use for GS = whereever the GL is, it's a city to keep.

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oh yeah i'd not raze the GLib even if the barbarians built it i think haha. but it's one i'm always hesitant to plan on capturing rather than building, since i'm oh-so-perfectionist-builder type and i want this in that city and that in this city and i drive hubby nuts when we're playing together since he ain't like that. so i was just wondering how smart the AI is about that ... will it just think 'oooooh, shiny wonder' and make it where it has the hammers to make it quickest? which is still okay i suppose.

KMadCandy said:

oh yeah i'd not raze the GLib even if the barbarians built it i think haha. but it's one i'm always hesitant to plan on capturing rather than building, since i'm oh-so-perfectionist-builder type and i want this in that city and that in this city and i drive hubby nuts when we're playing together since he ain't like that. so i was just wondering how smart the AI is about that ... will it just think 'oooooh, shiny wonder' and make it where it has the hammers to make it quickest? which is still okay i suppose.

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The AI doesn' even look at the hammers .
We may be lucky, or not.
When a building/unit is done, the AI checks for the next thing to build. If the GL is amongst the option, and it has marble, I think it will go for it. Even in a 4 hammers/turn city

I think you've got to be aggressive with Kublai, and that means bee-lining construction. You might even attack sooner, with the aim of taking his elephant city before he can do any damage, or at least pillaging his elephant camps. You can then use your own elephants/catapults to wipe him out and take his land. If you get Kublai's land and the barb city then you're in a very good position.

From a trade POV, I would look to trade with Mehmet to get him closer to discovering COL. He's currently not religious, but that won't last, and I think he'll go for it if it's a low-hanging fruit. If you can help him found Confucianism you can almost guarantee future conflicts between him and Isabella, and that may be the best way to keep them both down. Stay pretty neutral until you're in a position to make friends across the pond.

Re Wonders. Sisiutil already knows there's an unknown wonderhog (or two) so no guarantee who's going to build anything.

So far, the advice is sounding like this:

• Build a Worker next in Timbuktu, not a unit.
• Make the tech trade with Kublai. I'll get the pre-reqs for Construction and Literature
• Bee-line to Construction, even at the risk of the GL (stick with Mathematics as the next tech).
• Build more Workers elsewhere (once Gao gets both fish tiles going, it will be a natural Worker factory).
• Start cottaging the capital.
• Take the barb city with Skirmishers, Chariots, and Swords while I wait for Elephants and Catapults.
• Once the latter two units are available, attack Kublai.

By the way, KMad, Kublai still doesn't have Horseback Riding for his UB. I would imagine he'll be researching that soon--the AI often sets it as an early priority. I know I can't count on that, but it may distract him from construction or literature. Tough to say.

And of course there are other civs out there too, and one or two have already shown a penchant for wonder-building. We can't, by the way, assume they're all on another continent together, those other civs, since this is a fractal map. It has already spawned a couple of interesting-looking islands off the west coast. Speaking of which, I should also send my Scout to check out what's off that eastern peninsula, shouldn't I?

Wow, you've got a hard decision (at least for me) to make. Personally, in your position, I think I would attack Isabel. She's in a much weaker position (no metals), controls several happyness resources, and has a very nice capital (corn horse cow and fish in the fat cross? Why don't I ever get that?) It also will eliminate one of the most annoying ai's in the game.

Seville will be a very fast growing city, and by capturing it, you're essentially driving a wedge that will let you conquer the northern part of your continent at your leisure. You could take your stack of swordsmen and go take over Hittite first, giving them some xp and getting you a good block against more KK expansion.

I agree that you need to pursue Construction before Literature if you want to take Kublai out. With his Creative trait, having Cats will greatly help.

Taking the barb city would be a good idea to at least get your units some experience and possibly promotions. It also keeps the Horses away from Kublai, although he could still counter with War Elephants if he gets to Construction.

What are Kublai's relations like with the rest of the neighbors? If he isn't on good terms with them, then Alphabet is a safe trade. If he's buddies with them, just remember he'll probably swap Alphabet to them as well, or try to get other techs.

I'd suspect Kublai is more likely to pursue Construction than Horseback Riding, but you never know with the AI. He may be thinking he'll go get the barb city and then he can have Horses and Keshiks. If you get the barb city before he does, he may or may not switch his tech priorities.

And yes, now is the time to start cottaging up your designated commerce cities.

700BC for stonehedge? That's a bit late.

Is anyone noticing that the AI seems to be taking longer to build wonders in warlords? In my last Prince game, the AI built the Pyramids in 700AD.

If the same kind of thing is happening in this game, i wouldn't be worried about being beaten to a wonder.

The advice to build more workers isn't exactly new. It's been a thread throughout the ALC. I'm really curious as to whether you build workers in off line games to the same extent as you do here.

I'm in favor of Construction ASAP. Use the barbarian city to get CR promotions and set the stage to take down KK with cats and 'phants. It might be prudent to build some spears to protect the northern flank from a possible attack by our favorite psycho religious fanatic while you're beating down the Mongols.

I wouldn't worry about losing the GL. With Manny, it's usually overkill.

Eggolas said:

The advice to build more workers isn't exactly new. It's been a thread throughout the ALC. I'm really curious as to whether you build workers in off line games to the same extent as you do here.

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oh wouldn't it be interesting to be a fly on the wall and watch him without us hovering over his shoulder? i still can't get over that he used to be a builder not a warmonger! not putting a road on gems that are near jungle tiles that might spread is like nails on a chalkboard!

i find this so fascinating, wondering what the AI will research, and if we want them to be distracted from where we're afraid they're going, or if the potential distractions may end up being even more scary.

i do like taking barb cities, free exp and saves a settler and that one's in a great spot. the horses are a double bonus.

i know i tend to project how i think onto the AI ("well, jumbos are better than horse archers, don't include any dead end techs [altho the stable thing would make that less dead end for KK] and they're so much cuter than the ponies anyway, i think i'll go there"). that's a big part of what i learn reading these threads, the personalities of the ones i don't often meet, and just stuff about AI patterns in general. i think i knew cabert's horrifying news about they don't care which city, it makes sense, it's the only way to program it, but i wiped it from my memory cuz it's just depressing.

yes i'd head for construction and risk losing the GLib, painful tho the thought may be. and i agree that a scout to check out the black spots is a good idea.

Yes, WTBC, I've noticed that too. They also tech for BW a lot quicker than before, although they still tend to horde Great People and save them for GAs, even if they'd be better served taking time off a tech.

I vote for KK as the next (only?) target, for a couple reasons. He's hemmed in, with only one more decent city spot (by the Bronze, to the west) left to take-- and he may not beat Mehmed to that. If he and Izzy had swapped positions, she might be happy with that amount of land, but the Aggressive civs tend to be, well, aggressive, and I have little doubt you're his first target. (Mehmed's too far away.) KK and Izzy are on bad terms as well, so if you want to let the Spanish snake live out the game (and that's a big if!), you won't suffer any diplomatic penalties.

Izzy is also cruising on the production front, which means she could match you with units right now; if she holds true to form, though, that will mean you'll just massacre hordes of obsolete units later on, for cheap XP and decent land. Mehmed might actually attack her first-- I don't think he's got enough land to satisfy the "minimum number of cities" threshold each AI seems to have. Oddly enough, Spain may be the best civ to leave around on this particular map, and how often can you say that? (You did want to play this game more peacefully, right?) Mehmed has always given me trouble in the long run in my games, which is why I think he'll have to go eventually, but YMMV.

If it's war with KK, the choice IMO seems to be how soon. He's going to get Iron if you wait too long, but taking cities without Cats is very expensive. OTOH, he's hardly a production powerhouse, and if you take two cities early he'll probably never recover. Given your success at warring in past games, early war strikes me as the better option; you'll take the initiative from KK, and sate a little personal vengefulness at the same time . Just my two cents, but it sounds like a win/win situation all around.

Sisiutil said:

So far, the advice is sounding like this:

• Build a Worker next in Timbuktu, not a unit.
• Make the tech trade with Kublai. I'll get the pre-reqs for Construction and Literature
• Bee-line to Construction, even at the risk of the GL (stick with Mathematics as the next tech).
• Build more Workers elsewhere (once Gao gets both fish tiles going, it will be a natural Worker factory).
• Start cottaging the capital.
• Take the barb city with Skirmishers, Chariots, and Swords while I wait for Elephants and Catapults.
• Once the latter two units are available, attack Kublai.

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I know I'm taking the opposite tack to most of the gallery, but if you hit Kublai fast, and take Beshbalik, the only units he'll be able to build are archers and warriors making him easy pickings. If you wait until you have construction, he'll have had his iron online for a while and have axes/spears/swords of his own to mess with your plans.

Isabella will hate him for their religious differences so repeated declarations won't count against you there, so I'd seriously advocate an early declaration to deny him any military resources (as we can see from the map, he doesn't have horses or copper in his cultural borders).

As for the GLib, with spiritual and access to caste system in the near future, you can compensate for its absence with a few quick civic swaps so I wouldn't worry too much about that for now.

Edited as I just noticed I cross-posted with uncarved block:

uncarved block said:

Given your success at warring in past games, early war strikes me as the better option; you'll take the initiative from KK, and sate a little personal vengefulness at the same time . Just my two cents, but it sounds like a win/win situation all around.

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Eggolas said:

I wouldn't worry about losing the GL. With Manny, it's usually overkill.

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Exactly what I've been thinking as I've been reading the last two pages. I had never tried MM before, so I played two games with him to see what all the fuss was about, and HOLY S, BATMAN!

In both games I skipped ALL the early wonders, did very little tech trading, and just got a lot of cottages up and running ASAP. By the time I got to education, I was just about even in tech, and once I won the liberalism race, I never looked back.

(A bit off topic, but in the second game, all 7 civs (including myself) founded a religion. There was almost always 2 or more wars going on, the entire game, which helped me really get a huge tech lead, since the AIs never traded.)

In both games I skipped ALL the early wonders, did very little tech trading, and just got a lot of cottages up and running ASAP.

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Ding ding ding ding ding! and give the man a cigar!

Admitting I have not studied the map too carefully, I'd go first after the lowest hanging fruit: the barb city. Then weigh the ease of knocking off Isabella with the potential quality of her land. I lean toward KK at the moment myself, since he has better land, and his creative trait is rather annoying.

Help him get the tech for GL: building a wonder will bog him down and slow his ability to build military resources/infrastructure, hopefully.

It pays to remember the adage "The strong get stronger." As such, I wouldn't touch Izzy yet, instead go for KK so that you can hold the extra ivory, and he doesn't hammer you with his own elephants, or as Patagonia pointed out quite well:

patagonia said:

I know I'm taking the opposite tack to most of the gallery, but if you hit Kublai fast, and take Beshbalik, the only units he'll be able to build are archers and warriors making him easy pickings. If you wait until you have construction, he'll have had his iron online for a while and have axes/spears/swords of his own to mess with your plans.

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Getting GL would be nice, however MM probably wouldn't need it? Of course, the only reason I see where it would come in handy is if you expand/conquer too fast too soon, and the economy takes a hit, but then, given the financial trait...

Eggolas said:

The advice to build more workers isn't exactly new. It's been a thread throughout the ALC. I'm really curious as to whether you build workers in off line games to the same extent as you do here.

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It's about the same. I try to maintain a ratio of one worker per city or better. I usually expect to claim some workers through conquest, and every now and then under the right conditions I steal one early on.

I've noticed that the AI is much smarter about protecting its workers since the 2.08 patch. I used to claim workers throughout a war, now I only get them when I take the last city.

Okay, so it sounds like I should engage Kublai in a pillaging war ASAP, keeping him from copper, iron, or horses until I have catapults and elephants to take his cities. Since he only has archers right now, a couple of chariots should do the trick. Heck, he might even cough up mathematics for peace in a few turns and save me the last few turns of researching it. Then again, to keep that iron from him, I think I'd need to harrass him constantly until Beshbalik falls.

Sisiutil said:

So far, the advice is sounding like this:

• Build a Worker next in Timbuktu, not a unit.
• Make the tech trade with Kublai. I'll get the pre-reqs for Construction and Literature
• Bee-line to Construction, even at the risk of the GL (stick with Mathematics as the next tech).
• Build more Workers elsewhere (once Gao gets both fish tiles going, it will be a natural Worker factory).
• Start cottaging the capital.
• Take the barb city with Skirmishers, Chariots, and Swords while I wait for Elephants and Catapults.
• Once the latter two units are available, attack Kublai.

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Sisuitil, I think this plan looks good for the most part. A few of things:

You didn't mention it but I assume you still plan to convert to Buddhism as soon as it spreads to one of your cities. That will keep Izzy happy and remove the threat from the N while your army is fighting in the S.

Capturing Hittite ASAP not only denies Kublai horses but it also means that Mehmed can not capture that city. That's a really good city site to have as in addition to the horses it provides 2 food resources plus 2 plantation luxuries including a couple that you will not have internally even after conquering Mongolia. If you find yourself living peacefully with Mehmed you won't be able to take the city from him if he gets it before you.

As others have pointed out you don't have to wait for cats to start the war with Kublai. If you still have OB with Kublai you can check the defense of Beshbalik and Turfan. Whenever you think you have a large enough force assembled in Timbuktu you should go for it. While you're capturing the northern Mongolian cities you can continue researching Construction and building your initial cats. Then you should have no trouble when you move south to take Karakorum.

For this reason you might want to rethink the idea of a pillaging war. Once you declare war Kublai will build military units, making capturing even the northern cities harder. Denying Kublai metal has minimal advantages IMO since the AI doesn't defend its cities with axes (normally). The ivory only becomes an issue if Kublai gets Construction before you have enough swords to attack Beshbalik.

If you intend to fight the war with Kublai in the next round one thing that should be discussed now is what to do with the Mongolian cities. It looks to me like Beshbalik and Karakorum should be kept, but Kublai didn't do you any favors where he founded the other three. The good thing is that they're all small at this point so razing and rebuilding won't cost you much (other than having to build the settlers of course).

Turfan was founded on stuge's blue dot, but as shadow2k pointed out at that time the tile 2 SW of that would make an excellent production city (HE?) with the possibility to build another city 1 NE of Turfan that could be a decent commerce site. Old Sarai (NE of Hittite) should be moved 1 E to avoid major overlap with Hittite. Ning-hsia should be moved either 1 N or 3 N depending on whether you want the clams to be worked by that city or save them for a city 1 SW of the copper. Of course by the time you get there a city will probably be founded near the copper so that may change things.

If you do decide to raze you'll probably want to have settlers available to rebuild immediately since both Izzy and Mehmed are running out of land and will be quick to pounce on whatever sites you free up.

Round 4: 640 BC to 25 BC

Validator, I was playing while you were posting, but things went pretty much according to plan, and you've anticipated my next set of decision point questions.

To start off, I made a couple of the recommended changes. Timbuktu changed builds to a Worker:



And I made the recommended tech trade with Kublai:



As I mentioned, this gave me prerequisites for two target techs: Construction and Literature. It also gave me Masonry, allowing me to build a quarry on Kumbi Saleh's stone. If we decide to attempt the U of Sankore/Spiral Minaret strategy later on, that stone will be crucial.

Still on the subject of techs, a few turns later, Mehmed showed up asking for a favour:



My usual instinct in these situations is to tell the AI to get bent. However, I'm too used to playing as Rome or Egypt where I can whomp chumps like Mehmed with Praetorians or War Chariots. Remembering that Skirmishers don't really make anyone cower in fear, I gave in. It's a cheap +1 diplomatic bonus, and Validator is correct--I want to keep Mehmed and Isabella off my back.

Now, I kept checking the tech board every turn. I was watching for Kublai to get Iron Working. That would trigger the war; I wanted to prevent him from getting his iron on-line. I even had a pair of pillagers (a chariot and a skirmisher) down southwest of Beshbalik, ready to go.

Well, as it turns out, there were two war triggers. Kublai did indeed discover Iron Working--and right on that same turn, he had a lone Archer and a Settler wander right by my two pillagers! Free XPs and Worker! How could I resist?



I didn't have sufficient forces to take any of his cities yet, mind you, and as you can see, I was still researching Mathematics. You might also notice that Mehmed converted to Buddhism, which made me keep my fingers crossed that it would spread to my borders as well.

Before my brand-spankin'-new Swordsmen to high-tail it over to that barb city, they had to take care of Kublai's initial Archer rush. Yep, an Archer rush. I'll say this for the Mongolian, he has chutzpah. Absolutely no sense of self-preservation, but chutzpah to burn.



That earned a couple of the Swords their City Raider II promotion.

My skirmishers also got in on the action:



On open terrain against Archers, Skirmishers perform quite well, though I did lose the pillager to a lowly Archer eventually. Now that I have Swords, Axes, and will soon have War Elephants, I don't know if the Skirmishers will really see a good workout in this game, unlike the Protective Archers in the Tokugawa game. They're pretty much becoming relegated to city garrison duty, despite my favouring drill promotions for them.

Meanwhile, I got some good, convenient news on the religious front:



I converted right away to start racking up positive diplomatic points with Mehmed and Isabella. Unfortunately, Judaism rather than Buddhism spread to Kumbi Saleh, and I think Isabella built a temple or something in Seville, because the Spanish culture on the pig tile that had fallen to 56% started going back up into the 60s. Dang.

Meanwhile, I had a couple of Chariots doing their thing in Mongolia. I went a little pillage-crazy. I took out his lone ivory camp, and when I saw the gold I got from it, my eyes lit up. I wasn't solely motivated by greed, though; I wanted to get enough gold to keep research going, and I also wanted to see if I could earn enough to upgrade my Woodsman II Warrior to an Axeman.



I wanted to prevent Kublai, as much as possible, from being able to field anything stronger than archers. I not only wanted to deny him materials; I wanted to reduce his ability to research. I think I slowed him down, but he does have a couple of techs on me.

But I have an important one on him. In 160 BC, the recommended bee-line was completed:



I started building catapults in several cities, some of which have yet to complete.

Shortly after this, without the help of catapults, my swordsmen captured the barbarian city of Hittite:



That's a very nice city that will get me dye and sugar as well as cows and horses. Corn too, which completes my trifecta of healthy grains. The gold allowed my Woodsman II Warrior to trade in his club for a big ol' axe. Ooooooo... shiny.

As the round drew to a close, my forces were closing in on Old Serai, where Kublai has just over a half dozen Archers assembled. I can't blame him--it's the only unit he has to throw at me. He may bee-line to Construction for Catapults and/or to Feudalism for Longbowmen, though I think the latter may be out of his reach if I push him hard enough.

I'm inclined to agree with Validator, that everything but Beshbalik and Karakorum should be razed. I don't have any settlers on the go to rebuild, though. I think my borders should hold off the other two civs from settling my back yard for a time; I can always close the borders if I see their Settlers coming my way. What does everyone else think regarding Mongolian cities to raze, keep, and rebuild?

Isabella is starting to accrue some techs on me, though I still have several on her. Though she's now pleased with me, she's reluctant to trade most of her techs. This is the deal she's proposing for Calendar:



Yeah, right, babe. Mehmed is a little more reasonable:



I haven't made either trade, preferring to ask for opinions. I don't like trading away a strategic tech like Construction. Let them research it on their own is my inclination. Also, I don't have a big need for Calendar just yet (though I will soon), and I'd like to complete the monument in Hittite, especially since I don't have either Meditation nor Monotheism and Organized Religion for missionaries yet.

I just finished researching Literature and selected Code of Laws, as you can see, for my next tech. However, I can switch to something else with no loss of flasks. Confucianism got founded on some other land mass, near as I can figure, so I don't think either Izzy or Mehmed will research CoL themselves. I could research Currency, I suppose, but that's an AI favourite I may be able to trade for later. On the other hand, Isabella still won't trade Meditation, and it would only take me 3 turns, and then I can spread Buddhism to my various cities. What is everyone else's thoughts on the techs to research next?

Here's the map of the continent:





And a look at the the domestic advisor:



I've already lined up some other builds. The Great Library is getting ready to go in Timbuktu. I may not get it. Mehmed also has Literature (though he doesn't have marble, but then again, neither do I). And there is that other, wonder-happy civ out there somewhere. Still, as I've seen in the past, the gold you get from failing to complete the GL is almost as good as the wonder itself. Djenne has another catpult lined up, KS is working on a Jewish temple in the on-going cultural war over that pig tile (the lack of which is unfortunately inhibiting the city's growth), and Gao will commence a Worker once its catapult is complete.

In other news, I'm halfway to my first Great General, and all 4 civs are about even in power, though Mehmed and I have a slight edge over the other two. Remember that all of Kublai's power is based on archers, techs he can't leverage for units, and perhaps some of those cheap barracks aggressive gets. Frankly, I'm pretty confident that I'm going to roll him up like a swimming pool tarpaulin on the first day of summer. I'll probably fall a bit behind Mehmed and Izzy in techs as a result, but with Kublai's lands added to my own, I'll be in an excellent position to slingshot ahead of everyone--especially once I get those cottages coming to maturity. I could then continue warring, or if my western and northern neighbours remain happy Buddhists, I could settle back and work towards some form of peaceful victory.

If I can just get those darned pigs away from Isabella!

I agree that you're in a really good position to take out Kublai, and that once you annex the Mongolian lands you'll have no trouble zipping past the other two civs.

I would recommend that you focus more on military builds at this point to get the war over with as quickly as possible. It looks like after Gao and Timbuktu finish their current builds you intend to have all the remaining military built by Djenne. IMO Timbuktu needs to keep building military for a while, even if it means loss of GL (which it almost certainly will). Also do you really need the temple in KS now? It's only 1 culture/turn so it's not going to get you control of the pigs tile. Switch KS to military builds now and once the war is over you can focus on getting the culture you need there to get the pigs.

In terms of military units I wouldn't build any more elephants. Cats are much more cost effective at taking cities, especially if they're defended by several archers each. Given that Kublai is limited to archers you don't have to worry about counter-attacks.

You also might want to build some more skirmishers. They make effective "mop-up" units and they're cheap, plus they can transition into city defender roles.

Techwise I would prefer Currency over CoL at this point. You may be able to trade for it, but you also may not. Currency gives you an immediate boost to your economy because of the extra trade routes. Plus if you end up having to research both techs Currency will make CoL cheaper and also if at some point you do decide to make peace with Kublai having Currency will allow you to get gold for peace.

A couple of minor things:

You'll need a settler pretty quickly to replace Old Sarai. I don't think your current borders can keep the other civs away from that site.

Whip the monument in Hittite. The city isn't going to have improved tiles to work for a while, so you might as well start getting some culture in it ASAP.

Gao should probably build a trireme before the worker to protect the second fishing nets before a Mongolian ship shows up.

Validator said:

Also do you really need the temple in KS now? It's only 1 culture/turn so it's not going to get you control of the pigs tile. Switch KS to military builds now and once the war is over you can focus on getting the culture you need there to get the pigs.

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i'm leaning the opposite way on this one. if it's only 6 turns, IMO it's worth the investment. tho it's only 1 culture per turn, the culture per turn is exactly what counts. you have to give it time to accumulate and he's competing with someone who has already built up some culture there, so the sooner the better.

i like getting asked for cheap non-monopoly techs like mehmed did with mysticism. freebie permanent +1 modifier. i do wish you could hover over the tech and see info on it like you can in the actual trade screen, one of my pet peeves, for times when i can't remember what's dangerous to give to who. but yeah i'd have given that to him for sure, good call.

go go jumbos! i'm a big fan of them any way, and particularly today. i'm playing a completely bizarre game now. one-city-challenge, i have no ponies and never will. i do have elephants tho, so i built jumbos, all is well. kept building them, they're cool. then i get industrialism and ivory goes obsolete. which i knew, but had never realized what it *meant*. it only ever meant a happy face going away before. it means you can't make jumbos any more either, oopsies. and i have no oil for gunships. and i have no trading partners, duel map one opponent and my goal for the game is to make his life miserable. i suppose i may have elephants running around with mech infantry eventually. it's been very different from my usual games! his life is completely miserable tho, and i'm having a heck of a good time.

"I'll probably fall a bit behind Mehmed and Izzy in techs as a result, but with Kublai's lands added to my own, I'll be in an excellent position to slingshot ahead of everyone--especially once I get those cottages coming to maturity. I could then continue warring, or if my western and northern neighbours remain happy Buddhists, I could settle back and work towards some form of peaceful victory."

yup sounds good. i kinda wanna see you do the financial tech thing and peacefully leap lightyears ahead of the other folks.