ALC Game 13: Mali/Mansa Musa

And of course, trading a wonder-enabling tech before you've completed the wonder yourself is just nuts.

Not to drive too far off topic, but is it really that bad to trade it when you're a turn or two away from snagging the wonder? What if you crack the whip on the turn you trade it? I mean, if the AI you trade to has a GE sitting around, you're screwed, but other than that, they're not going to be able to beat you to the wonder if you're close enough. Doesn't the tech lose some of its sparkle once the wonder's been built, anyway?

Wow, I feel like we're all sitting on the alphabet rug from kindergarten, waving hands in the air, pulling on teacher's skirt or something. (I know Sisiutil probably does not wear a skirt.)
 
Doesn't the tech lose some of its sparkle once the wonder's been built, anyway?

Wow, I feel like we're all sitting on the alphabet rug from kindergarten, waving hands in the air, pulling on teacher's skirt or something. (I know Sisiutil probably does not wear a skirt.)

hmmm. on the sparkle, i know the AI is coded to "have our reasons" to not trade a tech if it's building the wonder. but i don't think they're coded to give it less weight as far as accepting it in a trade from you if the wonder is gone. anybody know?

and yeah S. we've been at recess far too long. play the game pretty please! oh let me be more specific in my plea ... play it and post a detailed report pretty please!
 
hmmm. on the sparkle, i know the AI is coded to "have our reasons" to not trade a tech if it's building the wonder. but i don't think they're coded to give it less weight as far as accepting it in a trade from you if the wonder is gone. anybody know?

The AI does lower its value for a tech once its wonders have been built, at least as far as what it will give you in return for that tech is concerned. Couldn't tell you the code behind it though. ;)

But with all that's been said about our game's current sweetheart, Isabella, I'm surprised no one's mentioned that NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION! OUR CHIEF WEAPON IS FEAR...FEAR AND SURPRISE OUR TWO CHIEF WEAPONS ARE......:lol: Now someone get me some soft pillows and a comfy chair and we can be sure Issy will stay on our side the whole game. :rolleyes:
 
The AI does lower its value for a tech once its wonders have been built, at least as far as what it will give you in return for that tech is concerned. Couldn't tell you the code behind it though. ;)

oh i wouldn't understand the code even if you did tell me. thanks for the info tho! and now i shall back away slowly from scary zed *giggle*
 
Not to drive too far off topic, but is it really that bad to trade it when you're a turn or two away from snagging the wonder?
I can't count the number of times I've been burned by trading away a wonder-enabling tech, just to have the AI GE-rush the wonder on the very next turn. (Taj Mahal seems to be a favorite of theirs, for some reason.) Late game wonders like the SoL, Pentagon & Eiffel are safer, since they can't be rushed with a single GE (the Kremlin can, however.) I've never been beaten to a Wonder that's 1 turn away from completion, assuming the AI doesn't build it on that same turn -- so whipping/rushing it will indeed guarantee that you get it.

To Sisiutil -- do NOT trade Printing Press to Huyana! Giving away that tech to the tech leader (and a Financial one to boot) is just insane. Trade Liberalism instead, or wait until he loosens up and is willing to trade away Gunpowder as well. Taking Nationalism as the free tech sounds like a good plan, but I question the wisdom of following up with Constitution/Democracy -- Representation is always nice, but unless you manage to steal the copper away from Mehmed, you have virtually no hope of building the Statue of Liberty (and even if you do, it would be extremely painful to build with no copper!!) Instead, I would recommend heading straight for Military Tradition, then research (or trade for) Gunpowder + Chemistry. You should also think about heading to Scientific Method ASAP, since unlike other games, you don't have to worry about obsoleting the Great Library. ;)

I would also suggest placing a city 1N or 1NE of the copper, unless Mehmed's culture prevents you from doing so.

I like the idea of co-existing peacefully with Isabella, she can be a real sweetheart if you manage to share the same religion.
 
Round 7: 1214 AD to 1502 AD

Well, this is a round where everyone gets to either congratulate or berate me for either the brilliance or the stupidity of my tech trades and civics changes, according to your own preferences and inclinations. They were the highlight of a very peaceful round. I seem to be recovering some of my old builder mentality.

I started, before ending the turn from the last round, by making a tech trade with Isabella:

ALC13_1502ADa_01.jpg


That would allow me to make a run at the Spiral Minaret, a very nice combination, as I've said before, with the Spiritual trait's cheap temples and the University of Sankore. Isabella was probably building the SM, so I started building the wonder in Timbuktu, my best production city thanks to Bureaucracy. It pollutes Timbuktu's GP points, but I wouldn't mind a Great Prophet rather than a Scientist, so I can build the Hindu Shrine. Besides, I thought the Minaret and the University would look nice together, and I'm sure the spirit of Muslim Mansa would approve of it as well.

On the next turn, I completed Liberalism and chose the tech we all pretty much agreed upon:

ALC13_1502ADa_02.jpg


I immediately stared building the Taj Mahal in Kumbi Saleh. I then went to Huayna to make a tech trade:

ALC13_1502ADa_03.jpg


Notice anything significant? Yeah, I don't have Nationalism on Huayna! (He got Printing Press a turn or two later, too, the little jerk.) I think he must have finished researching it on the very same turn that I got it from Liberalism. So I realized I could have serious competition for the TM. There was only one solution: every tree around Kumbi Saleh had to get whacked.

The new tech allowed me to change civics, too:

ALC13_1502ADa_04.jpg


The free specialist from Mercantilism would help with the two wonders (a free engineer in Timbuktu and KS, of course), and GP generation.

Now that I had free specialists, I was loathe to give them up. So, to ensure the Statue of Liberty was a possibility, I secured some copper:

ALC13_1502ADa_05.jpg


This might also, I thought, help secure Ning-hsia's clams eventually. And it looks as though Tadmekka will actually make for a decent production city.

A couple of turns later, thanks to some judicious chopping around the capital, I beat Isabella to my next wonder:

ALC13_1502ADa_06.jpg


That helped my bottom line a little, though I didn't have nearly as many Buddhist buildings to take advantage of it as I'd like. To help with that, I changed civics again:

ALC13_1502ADa_07.jpg


In particular, I switched to Slavery because I wanted to whip some buildings in Karakorum--a mint, a library, and the National Epic in particular. Also, that city had just generated its next Great Scientist, who built an academy in the capital, so my need for Caste System and Pacifism was diminished.

On the very next turn, my frantic chopping around Kumbi Saleh paid off:

ALC13_1502ADa_08.jpg


I took advantage of the golden age to get a bunch of Buddhist Temples and Monasteries in place. Yeah, I know the former are cheap thanks to Spiritual, but I wanted to start getting the benefits of the two religious building boosting wonders ASAP. The other thing I built a lot of during the GA was stables and Cavalry. I also deleted a few obsolete and underpromoted units to save on unit support costs.

Thanks to MT, Isabella came by with a welcome proposal. (I said proposal, not proposition. Get your minds out of the gutter!)

ALC13_1502ADa_09.jpg


She's not a military powerhouse, but she's no wimp, and a Defensive Pact would pretty much ensure that I got left alone to play builder. I've never been attacked while I have a DP in place. What's everyone else's experiences with them?

Once that little bit of whipping was done, I changed civics again. (Yes, I love being Spiritual!)

ALC13_1502ADa_10.jpg


Representation for research from specialists, now that the GA was over. (I put specialists back on the land during a GA, to reap the benefits of the extra commerce and production.) Serfdom would help my Workers, of course, as they scurried about improving tiles. I call it, along with Organized Religion, one of the "builder civics". Universal Suffrage is another one I'd place in that category. You could put Slavery in there too, I guess, as an alternative to Serfdom. Depends what your priorities are--tile improvements versus city builds.

George loosened up a little and was willing to trade Economics. Huayna was willing to trade it as well, but I'm reluctant to help the tech leader unless he's me. I considered waiting for Economics, as I didn't want to switch from Mercantilism for a while (preferably until the SoL is built, but we'll see). The diplomatic situation was, however, a little volatile; Mehmed or Isabella might decide that Washington is their worst enemy, then demand that I stop trading with him, which means he wouldn't speak to me for ages. So I made the trade. I had Nationalism's wonder anyway.

ALC13_1502ADa_11.jpg


Around this same time, to my surprise, Isabella changed her religious civic--to Free Religion! I can't remember if I've ever seen her do that. Why would she? Maybe it's to increase her cities' culture, to try to overcome the cultural pressure from mine? She certainly has several religions to spread around. Maybe she sees herself falling behind in tech--as usual--and wants that +10% research per city to try to catch up. I wasn't too worried at first, but then she came by to cancel our Defensive Pact.

I suppose I could do without it, but it was certainly a nice safety buffer. So I persuaded her to find her religion again:

ALC13_1502ADa_12.jpg


She immediately became Friendly again and I restored our DP. I never mind trading Economics for a pittance, hoping that the AIs will gradually shift to Free Market from Mercantilism, justifying my own change to that civic.

A few turns later, Isabella proved herself useful in the tech field again. I had kind of hoped for this when I traded Education to her, hoping she'd build universities and prove to be useful for tech trades every now and then.

ALC13_1502ADa_13.jpg


During this round, I followed this tech path: Liberalism -> Gunpowder -> Military Tradition -> Constitution -> Democracy -> Astronomy -> Replaceable Parts -> and then...

ALC13_1502ADa_14.jpg


... after which I began researching Steel for Cannons and the Ironworks, which will be built in Walata to take advantage of its mines and grassland riverside tiles. I haven't built any Grenadiers, but I think a switch to Nationalism and Theocracy for a few turns of drafting is in order so that I have a good defensive force in place.

I was going to stop there, but I played one more turn when I noticed that my next great person in Karakorum would appear as a result. Against all odds, the National Epic had its say in the GP generation:

ALC13_1502ADa_15.jpg


So what should I do with him? He currently won't lightbulb anything. I could either settle him or use him for a culture bomb. Santiago, by the way, didn't flip; I'm pretty sure Isabella reinforced its culture, because it took that incense tile back and is, in fact, putting pressure on some of Geo's tiles. Just to experiment, I was thinking of settling the Great Artist in Geo to contrast it with the effects of the earlier culture bomb in Kumbi Saleh.

Anyway, I'm nipping at Huayna's tech heels, and we're on track to Alpha Centauri. A "state of the world" post will follow.
 
The State of the World, 1502 AD

Let's start by looking at the map:

ALC13_1502ADb_01.jpg


ALC13_1502ADb_02.jpg


ALC13_1502ADb_03.jpg


Now on to the domestic advisor:

ALC13_1502ADb_04.jpg


Yeah, I'd like to get Oxford University built. Also, my cities seem to be having more health issues early on than I'm used to. Not sure what I'm missing there, but I've had to prioritize Grocers in several cities. Niani has built both the Heroic Epic and West Point and can start producing units. I know, WP may not be necessary in this game, but what the heck, I had stone.

Civics:

ALC13_1502ADb_05.jpg


I'm thinking of changing to Nationhood, Emancipation, Free Market, and Pacifism. Yeah, I know Caste System would go better with Pacifism, but I'd like to generate a Great Prophet and CS won't help with that, but Emancipation will help my cottages mature faster--plus it will cause some happiness issues for the other civs.

Relations:

ALC13_1502ADb_06.jpg


I expect to stay ahead of Isabella in techs. If she switches to Free Religion again, I should be able to bribe her back to one of the religious civics as I did in this round--or so I hope, at least until computers obsolete my two main wonders, which is when I'll probably switch to Free Religion myself for the final space ship research boost.

Techs compared to Isabella:

ALC13_1502ADb_07.jpg


Huayna:

ALC13_1502ADb_08.jpg


Yeah, strange how he hasn't bothered with Democracy for the Statue of Liberty. I still have about 20 turns to go on it, so I can't assume it's in the bag, though. He does have another tech or two on me though; the Incan recently completed the Kremlin and is running State Property, so he has Communism already!

Poor ol' Ragnar:

ALC13_1502ADb_09.jpg


Ragnar isn't talking to me; Isabella now regards him as her worst enemy and asked me to stop trading with him (all I had was Open Borders). So the Viking gets no lovin' from Mali in this game. Like I said, I expect someone to invade him sometime soon--either Mehmed or Huayna. Better him than me!

Mehmed:

ALC13_1502ADb_10.jpg


Washington:

ALC13_1502ADb_11.jpg


I'm basically 2nd in techs, behind Huayna, and I'm not too far behind him--3 techs that I know of, at any rate.

Current trade deals:

ALC13_1502ADb_12.jpg


Victory conditions:

ALC13_1502ADb_13.jpg


Yeah, I'd have a l-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-ng way to go to a cultural win.

Power:

ALC13_1502ADb_14.jpg


Interesting how Ragnar outranks Washington. Remember I plan on rectifying my lower rating with some drafting soon.

Demographics:

ALC13_1502ADb_15.jpg


Wow, only 5th in GNP? Yeah--I have very few commerce cities, as it turns out! Timbuktu, Gao, Djenne, Hittite, Beshbalik, and Awdaghost are my commerce cities, and some of those (such as Djenne and Gao) only have a handful of cottageable tiles. The other 6 cities are production cities, more or less, except Karakorum, the GP farm. Also, Awdaghost's cottages are just getting going, a result of the city's low population. I'm thinking I should let it work Niami's rice tile for a few turns so it can grow faster.

So advice on the tech research for the next few rounds would be appreciated. Maybe it's now time to follow Torvoni's suggested bee-lines, to Industrialism (aluminum) and then to Robotics (Space Elevator).
 
Nice set of turns, well played. No complaints from me, except maybe I would've founded Tadmekka one tile west, with the hopes of eventually taking those cows away from Mehmed. But that's a minor quibble. You could've also been more aggressive in settling new cities once Astronomy was founded, such as that resource-less, jungle-covered island where Raggy & GW have now built cities. Only reason I point that one out is because Oil is almost for certain to show up there...but you're likely to have Oil somewhere already in your homeland, so that's no big deal.

Also, you should start spreading more religion around -- Hinduism first, then Christianity (since you'll be flipping that holy city eventually). Gotta get those monasteries built while you still can; remember, they provide culture even after the science/gold bonus becomes obsolete!

Speaking of culture...that Great Artist. Hmmm. Frankly, the best strategy at this point would be to save him for a golden age -- but if you want to settle him in Gao, that would be interesting from an educational point of view. You're pretty much out of the running for a Cultural Victory, anyway.

Emancipation, definitely. Need to get those cottages growing!!! Only downside to adopting Emancipation is that it will make the AI prioritize Democracy more, and with 20 turns left on the SOL, it's hardly in the bag. Might want to wait a few turns, hard to say really. I would pick Theocracy over Pacifism since it has better synergy with Nationhood -- you're reaching the point of diminishing returns for Great People, anyway.

I'm a bit concerned about Huyana's tech lead, he's probably got Biology and maybe even Physics as well as Communism. (Man, he's really become a tech monster in Warlords, hasn't he??) Keep researching Steel, hopefully somebody else will discover Corporation so you can trade for it. After that, it's a toss-up between Scientific Method or Steam Power...probably the latter, since nobody else has it yet.

Finally, once the homeland defenses are secure, you should build a small invasion force & have 'em wait in Niani until they're needed -- war is due to break out any moment now (probably between Mehmed & Washington) and you want to be able to pick up a few more cities, don't you? :lol:
 
Re defensive pacts. In my shadow game HC declared on me when I had a DP with Mehmed (and his vassal Kublai) so there's no guarantee of safety (but at least you get diplo bonusses for mutual military struggle).

You seem to be doing ok so far but you need to be developing economy further, probably time for emancipation-driven cottage growth.

Tech wise I definitely struggle at this point in the game. It actually gets easier later on when you're heading towards victory which pretty much dictates your tech path.

Lots of choices, all of them with significant benefits. Communism for SP and kremlin, biology for rapid growth, physics is essential for electricity/ flight/ artillery, steel for ironworks. If you're heading for industrialism do you get AL first or electricity first?
 
Re defensive pacts. In my shadow game HC declared on me when I had a DP with Mehmed (and his vassal Kublai) so there's no guarantee of safety (but at least you get diplo bonusses for mutual military struggle).

I ran into the reverse surprise in a 1CC game I was running - I felt nicely cushioned by my defense pacts (two of them). Anybody who comes after me will have to deal with my two attack dogs. Life is good, and I dial the research all the way up.

Then one of the psychos declares war on one of my allies.

Wheee! Both defense pacts shot, and now I'm an independent city state. 10 turns later, big sister Elizabeth negotiates a peace for herself, and I'm drinking from the firehose.
 
If anything, you've probably got too many production cities. You only need 3 for a space race (two good ones and a hybrid hammer/military city). Once emancipation's done its thing, a switch to US will make all of your commerce cities easily capable of churning out a casing. Since research is always the bottleneck (how quickly you can get the last part started determines how quickly you can finish), I'd retool a couple of the other cities with cottages to speed things along in that regard.

I'm not sure how the swap to free speech will shake things up, but it looks like Timbuktu is the place for Oxford. I'd stick with bureaucracy to get that built quickly, then swap to free speech once it's done and more of your cottages elsewhere have had time to mature. If you are going to draft, I'd wait until you've teched to biology, then hit the smaller, or high food surplus cities several times in succession. Theocracy has a better synergy with drafting than pacifism and you'll want to draft from Karakorum, so that's a better fit civics-wise.

Techwise, SciMeth, then biology look to give you immediate benefit, followed by a beeline to assembly line. I'd focus on building Oxford while you pick up the first two techs, then have a round of drafting rifles. If Isabella techs like a typical AI, you should be able to pick up railroad from her in exchange for assembly line so I'd make that trade while the factories and coal plants are going up.
 
good point about oxford and waiting for switching out of bureaucracy

Do you really want to draft that much?
It's not going to help you out, with somany good production cities.
If it's only for power, I'd start building some barracks then units in every production city for 20/30 turns. This should give you enough "power" to be safe for a while. After that, HE city should go on building units while others go back to more useful things such as observatories (yes, you want observatories in your production cities, they are required for labs ;)).
 
Would the diplomatic situation allow for a win that way? Spreading the right religion and building the UN? Mehmed's second in population, while Huayna is second in power. Is Huayna liked by your friends Mehmed and Isabella?

My guess would be: boatloads of missionaries to make Washington convert to your religion, keep your spouse happy and try both to make Mehmed happier with you and everyone sour with Huayna.

You might want to pave the way for both a space and a diplomatic victory.
 
In some respects, HC being so far ahead in techs is a good thing, because it means he doesn't have any good production cities. Checking the save (your screenies are nice, but it's just not the same), I see three potentially-- if a switch is made from Windmills to Mines, which isn't a given. The SS Engine alone should be a good 20-30 turn buffer, and that's assuming it actually ends up in the top Hammer city. Now, if you don't get Aluminum . . .

IIRC, the next (last?) tech a GA helps with is either Radio or Mass Media. Either settling in your top commerce city, or saving for a Golden Age seems the best move, though you have to ask yourself what other GP you'd give up for it. You can still build a Shrine, a Scientist is always handy, and Engineers even more so. Would you give up a Merchant for another Gold Age?

The big problem I've had with DPs is not being attacked, but having my ally cancel so he/she can go to war. Only Monty so far has been crazy enough to attack in spite of power ratings, and he's not in this game. Your biggest threat, as I see it, is for HC to build the UN, especially if he Vassalizes Ragnar (either before or after.) Not a big chance, thinking about it-- you + an AI should be enough to put that victory out of reach.

Nice job. I'm going to have to take a good half hour some day to really examine these saves, because I just can't seem to crank as much out of my cities as you do. Even with nine cities on Noble, I'd be sweating the last third of the game, for example. Thanks again for all the work.
 
Sisiutil said:
I seem to be recovering some of my old builder mentality.

What's so bad about that? ;)

Would the diplomatic situation allow for a win that way? Spreading the right religion and building the UN? Mehmed's second in population, while Huayna is second in power. Is Huayna liked by your friends Mehmed and Isabella?

My guess would be: boatloads of missionaries to make Washington convert to your religion, keep your spouse happy and try both to make Mehmed happier with you and everyone sour with Huayna.

There's no point because Mehmed is second in population, so he will be Sisiutil's rival in the elections. Unless HC builds the UN, in which case you can win by diplomacy if you take over Ragnar's cities or capitulate him.

Your biggest threat, as I see it, is for HC to build the UN.

Not necessarily a bad thing. See above. Of course, Sisiutil would have to be the one attacking Ragnar.
 
I pretty much agree with jerVL/kg - nicely played, and I like his choices, although I don't think I'd have bothered with settling the island. Like he said, oil will very likely show up in your territory anyway.

My own opinion to add, is that I wouldn't beeline just for the sake of aluminum - I prefer to go for electricity before worrying about aluminum. There always seems to be a lot of Al to be had on the map, so I prefer to try working towards Three Gorges and ramping up production that way. Plus, with the increased production being a hammer bonus, it's applicable to everything, not just to ship parts.

Perhaps a hybrid drafting strategy would work? Combine Cabert's plan of simply building barracks and units instead of drafting, with a limited draft from some of the less "important" cities. In other words, go ahead and draft a few rifles now while building another half dozen or so in your main production cities, then just leaving it to HE city. That cuts down on the wait time before you can start getting those observatories, etc. up, and doesn't lay the smack down on your power-producer cities like a big draft can. I've never been attacked having made a DP, but in most games where I have one the two of us combined ranked in power equal or greater than the leader, so I doubt the AI would attack in that case.

Lastly, don't discount Isabella's propositions - you know what they say about "those nice Catholic girls". ;) Even if she's not Catholic this time around. :) Incidentally, I Googled Queen Isabella out of curiosity - if the woodcuts and paintings are any indication, our Issy's cuter. :)

Oh, and as for the health problem - I don't remember how many pigs you've got, but you're trading 2 of them according to the State of The World address. I assume you have a 3rd tucked away somewhere for the health bonus for yourself, right? Never forget the joys of a good BLT! ;)
 
There's no point because Mehmed is second in population, so he will be Sisiutil's rival in the elections. Unless HC builds the UN, in which case you can win by diplomacy if you take over Ragnar's cities or capitulate him.

Thanks for the clarification. I thought power determined the nominations.
 
My own opinion to add, is that I wouldn't beeline just for the sake of aluminum - I prefer to go for electricity before worrying about aluminum. There always seems to be a lot of Al to be had on the map, so I prefer to try working towards Three Gorges and ramping up production that way. Plus, with the increased production being a hammer bonus, it's applicable to everything, not just to ship parts.

I've never been attacked having made a DP, but in most games where I have one the two of us combined ranked in power equal or greater than the leader, so I doubt the AI would attack in that case.

Lastly, don't discount Isabella's propositions

Oh, and as for the health problem - I don't remember how many pigs you've got, but you're trading 2 of them

oh S loves 3GD! he'll probably be even more tempted this time since only 5 cities (i think) are by fresh water (cross-file under health problem).

i recall being DoWd once with a DP but it was by Monty so it's hardly representative.

isabella - i looked at the save last night. you're net +17 with her right now, +8 is the religion, +2 is the DP. so it'd go down a lot but she'd still have a pretty major crush on you.

the pigs - yes he has one for his own cities still. i made it point to check the pigs, are of course an important goal in this game and if we win by space race while owning no pigs i shall consider it only a partial victory ;)

cabert said "I'd suggest switching to free speech soon, if you want your settled GA to shine. + your cottages should be mature now in some places." i got reallllllllly curious looking at Geo vs. Santiago and scrolled back on the log in 1512. she popped a GA in 1418. [edit: i see after a re-read you'd noticed some of the tile-swaps up there. i went ahead and left my specifics in tho.]

i went back and looked at the 1214 AD save for comparison. i've convinced myself that she used him for a great work there. back then she didn't even own her BFC, nobody owned the desert 2W of her city. she now controls several more tiles she used to, including 3 or 4 that were 99/100% ours (one is the incense). one border pop wouldn't have changed it that much i think. and she wasn't in free religion long enough to get any benefit from it being a holy city.

some tiles that we still have up there are much less ours (for example the forest your workers are on atm is now 50% ours, was 100%). giving michaelangelo a home there might well be interesting and educational, more so if the free speech vs. nationhood decision looks good for other reasons (i'd not know, i'm not good at using nationhood wisely myself). i have seen the AI make great works in border cities before. i don't think it's a dangerous situation by any means but i found it interesting to ponder.
 
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