ALC Game 14: Mongolia/Kublai Khan

I think the plan I like most is taking "Mansa's" horses via culture and attacking with them - it's more in the spirit of role-playing (utilizing leader traits, and the UU/UB). Although, the agressive trait is realized only in the boldness of such a plan and historic precedence of blitz style conquest ("what would Khan do?"), not in building melee units. I don't blame you if you find the plan too risky and stick to more conventional early warplay. Stunting early growth to try it may prove fatal even if it succeeds to some extent.


PS. Since no-one has given Welnic kudos/props/"yays!!!" yet, I will. That post was AMAZING. It made me laugh so hard, I saved the page for future laughs! (I mean the post with the pictures of 2 Khans, and the captions [on page 9 of this thread]).

Sisiutil said:

Does that sound like a plan?

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Awesome plan. With Mansa and Churchill down on heathen Brennus, that cleans up the diplomacy a bit, too.

The Keshiks don't seem like a question at this point, which is great. With such crazy good luck it kind of paints them as less attainable, which just reinforces the need to try 'em out when you get the chance. I'm a crap warmonger so this vicarious conquest is really appealing.

How about iron? It might be wise to figure out where that stuff is and whether your victims are going to be able to catch any. It's an expensive tech, sure, but I always feel like it's worth it. Caesar probably feels it's worth it, too.

It's a bold plan, an axe rush to acquire horses and then Keshiks towards domination.

I like it!

Don't forget to bring along a scout/medic. You may need one prior to getting the medic III unit.

For an axe rush, I'd found Bronze Cow next 1N of the cows. For one, it will have the most production early with *3* strong production resources, and you want that production right away. One copper is already developed, even. For another, how often can you get 2 coppers in one city?

The next city should go 1NE of the marble, to get marble, corn, a river, and a +1 gold hill (the currently unwineryable grapes; you can still mine it for a while). In total that gives you one outstanding and two good production cities, with two on rivers to keep the finances sound while you thrash Brennus.

Incidentally, an axe rush is also using Kublai's trait (agressive) You could argue an axe rush with Keshik followup is the most Kublai-specific early attack you could manage.

And you could argue that a keshik rush, using the target's own horses via culture stealing and resulting in the capture of the continental holy city before 800bc, with keshiks left over to stone-age Rome before they get ironworking - is the most Kublai-specific early attack anyone could manage. If such a thing is possible, I think we should procede from there.

Any leader can axe rush. Sprinkling in a couple horses ex-post-facto (for the most part, unnecessarily), is hardly Kublai specific.

I'm for settling Cabledawg's blue dot (the 2 copper 1 cow spot) at size 3 it's going to be a pretty good production city.

And taking Brennus's capital to get horses is just brilliance.

Keep tabs on all of the iron, copper, horses and elephants in the world. When you start your warring you can destroy all ability of the enemy(s) to create units better than archers and cats which will fall easily to swordsmen and keshiks. I suggest a conquest victory and near always war. Keep the city with pyramids so you can switch to police state to help WW. Another good way to help WW is to lure enemy units out of their territory, you don't get WW from units killed or lost outside the enemy's borders.

The only problem is, you have to move swiftly to take those horses and wipe out Brennus. Keshiks can be used to quickly penetrate the jungles towards your more distant neighbors while your swords and cats can take what you want from people near you. Use pillage money (from anyone you want) to finance 100% research which will remove most of the need for a major trading partner. You can vassalize people too, as they count as eliminated for conquest. In fact, historical precident for Kublai suggests you should allow local customs and culture to go on as usual, just making all of your subjugated peoples answer to a mongol or those without local loyalties from your other vassals. You may just be able to pull off the earliest ACL game win ever and stay true to Kublai's tactics.

Workers? Seriously you only have one worker. I would build a second one asap. Then i would work totaly different titles than you while growing. Get farms up on those Grassland to speed up growth. The Barracks will be usefull for units yes but it would be much faster to actually produce an army if you have einfrastructure first. Personaly I would go Worker -> Barracks(configured for max growth, work as many high food sources as possible. Probably soemthing like a grassland farm the corn and the elephants while growing a size. Once that You grow to Size 4 I would imeadiatly swich to building another setler to get your empire running. Possibly whip it out then build units in your capital until your ready to invade brenus. Storm him with axes and spears

Why build workers? Once copper is hooked up, the axes will likely grab a few workers in Brennus's capital. And once Keshiks are rolling, he can steal them from everyone else.

If Brennus's horses are to be the source of your Keshiks, then I think double-bronze (1N of cows) is still a no-brainer as city 2. City 3 would then either be Bibracte, or be founded somewhere between Karakorum and there. Since a settler and defending unit work out at roughly 4 axes, I'd make a case for Bibracte being city 3.

Alternatively, it could even go to the west to block Mansa from expanding in a southerly direction.

Sisiutil said:

... and another to the west to make sure no one else grabs that other copper tile....

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By the time someone settles to take copper you should have horses and that saves you building a settler + you get more XP

cabert said:

Did you notice the horses in brennus' land?
You don't even need to get those faraway cities for now. Just build 6 axes and take down brennus.

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Did you notice the horses in brennus' land? You probably want a spear or two to protect your axes.

Round 5: 2080 BC to 685 BC

I started the round by heeding oyzar's advice and put a Worker ahead of the Barracks in Karakorum. He definitely proved useful. I sent the Settler west to found the production city 1N of the cows that several of you were advocating:



Beshbalik's first build was a barracks, which was also the capital's next build. Then I started pumping out Axemen (and one Spearman, yes, thanks, VoU!). A good thing, too, as the barbarians started showing up and converging on my 2nd city from the fog. My Axes earned a lot of free XPs out of that.

I finished researching Writing and started on Alphabet. Rather than go around and ask for Open Borders agreements which I don't really need, I let the AI come to me, which they gradually did. I got the 1st fur tile hooked up for additional happiness as well as Beshbalik's cows and 2nd copper. I wasn't going to adopt a religion, but then Mansa came by for a visit:



Well, why not? For the cost of 1 turn of anarchy I have additional happiness in the capital, so it can keep growing, and a diplomatic bonus with Mansa and Churchill.

Speaking of the British bulldog, he came by on the very same turn:



Again, why not? I'm planning on attacking Brennus soon anyway. Now I have an additional diplomatic bonus with Churchill, which I think is good, as it may be some time before my hordes can make it all the way north to deal with him.

As my stack of Axes was building to critical mass, I got some news that made the Celtic capital an even more delectable treat:



Hoo boy, a holy city, and now a wonder, too! My concern, however, was that this would significantly increase the city's cultural defenses--and I'm several turns away from Catapults. So I kept building Axemen, beyond the half-dozen I'm usually content with. Hey, if there's one thing I know about this game, it's that you can always find a use for Axemen!

I finished researching and checked the tech board:



As you can see, I was going to go after Mathematics towards Construction, but then I noticed that Churchill was unwilling to trade Iron Working (no doubt because he has a monopoly on it). So I switched research to IW. Remember, I want Bibracte, and was growing concerned that I'd need Swordsmen to pry it open. In addition, knowing where Iron is will tell my Keshiks were to pillage to ensure they don't face any of those despised Spearmen. (Kindly picture a mustachioed Mongol horseman spitting at the very mention of the word, if you will.)

Meanwhile, I went to see the low man on the totem pole about some techs:



This was the only tech trade I made in this round. I'm hanging on to Horseback Riding for awhile to get the best deal possible for it--also to keep it out of the hands of potential enemies. Ditto for Alphabet. Besides, with a Keshik rush imminent, I can potentially extort as many techs as I can trade for.

I had 4 Axemen, 1 Spearman, and an Archer on Celtia's borders, outside of some new city Brennus had placed there to my north, next to Winery Hill. I declared war and moved the stack into position:



Well, this was going to be easy. Two unpromoted Archers in a city too young to have any cultural defenses? Not a problem. As you can see, I'd been holding off on promotions until I knew what sort of opposition I was facing; since my melee units already have Combat I, I feel more comfortable doing that than usual, and there are more initial promotion possibilities, too.

I promoted two Axemen to City Raider I and another to CR II (he'd earned some XPs fending off barbs). As it turned out, I only needed the first two--they both won their fights against Archers at about 66% odds.



I razed it. I don't like its location. It misses the marble to the southwest and the gems to the northeast (Brennus already has a city up there, another tempting target), and it would crowd the fishing village we have planned 1S of the plains wine. Soon afterwards I started building a Settler in Beshbalik to found a city hereabouts.

My stack hung around in the woods for a while to heal, which fortunately was accelerated by one Axeman I gave Medic I. Brennus was generous enough to send an Archer and a Settler to the exact same spot Tolosa had occupied--free XPs and a free Worker! Another Axe now has Combat II and Cover.

Once everyone's owies were healed, I moved the reinforced stack towards Bibracte. I was nervous. This was the capital, which the AI jealously defends; also, its borders had just popped to the 3rd ring, no doubt thanks to the Temple of Artemis' culture, which meant its cultural defenses were probably at 60%.

Well, I was half-right:



Oh my. Two City Garrison I Archers facing off against my 7 Axemen (4 with CR II, 1 with Combat II and Cover, 1 with Medic I, and one unpromoted), 1 Spearman (Combat II), and Archer (City Garrison I). Even so, I was nervous as I hit ENTER to go to the next turn. I was certain that the AI would move several units in to defend the capital, maybe even whip one. But it didn't! Only the two Archers remained to oppose my stack.

I attacked with my CR II Axemen. I lost the first two at around 26% odds--par for the course. But that meant the next two CR II Axes faced 96% odds against the badly-mauled Archers. Both won their battles, and the city was mine:



So as it turns out, the half-dozen Axes cabert suggested would have been plenty, and the Spearman turned out to be no more than a security blanket. Still, it was a good idea to bring the extras along. This easily could have been a much more difficult battle.

I could have kept going, but I'm kind of anxious to get the Mongol hordes unleashed. So I decided to try to get Brennus to cough up a couple of techs:



Since he's the sole Hindu, no one likes him, so I won't get any penalties for declaring war on him again. Assuming, of course, that he remains Hindu--since I just took his holy city, that could change. Even so, I'm not too worried. I mean, I'm planning on declaring war on everyone at some point anyway!

I was going to end the round here, but then I noticed that I had all of 6 turns to go before knowing where Iron Working was located. Since iron is the last of the early game strategic resources, and its locations are key strategic points, I decided to play ahead a few turns so we could have more information for discussion.

So here's how the tech board looks vis-a-vis Mansa:



I wouldn't mind getting Meditation from Churchill or maybe Mansa to spread Buddhism, but as I recall I would have to give them either HBR or Alphabet to get it. Best to wait until they have another, better tech to offer with it. My cities are all well under their happiness limit at the moment anyway.

Now for a look at the map. The Mongolian south first, with gridlines for dotmapping. Now that iron is revealed, it would be wise to revise the existing dotmaps.



Remember there are two more whale tiles to the south; the flying camera, remember, makes the gridlines reappear, but makes the southernmost resource indicators vanish.

The northwest, much of it still unexplored:



Another advantage of a temporary peace with Brennus is I am able to move my Scout west, past Celtic territory, to clear the fog that remains in this area. (Now that the SW horse site is not as big a priority, I could probably move my other Scout up there too.) You see, my Woodsman II Scout spent most of the round exploring the northeast:



No wonder Julius is in next-to-last place--his territory kind of sucks.

So what next? I have a Settler and an Archer just north of Karakorum. I was thinking of settling on Kniteowl's "orange X", 1 NE of the marble, but now it looks like I should instead move them to found the Ironwine fishing village (1S of the plains wine). It could be a half-decent commerce city if I cottage most of those riverside tiles nearby.

As for builds, Karakorum and Beshbalik both nearly have their Gers finished, but it will be a few turns before the horses are hooked up by road. I think both cities should build a Worker in the interim, before the build-up of the horde begins.

We should also start giving some thought to city specialization. A marble-corn (-wine?) city north of Karakorum might make for a good commerce and science city, especially if I build the Great Library there.

Bibracte could be a good Great People farm, with its clams, bananas, and pigs plus several grassland tiles (and the horses and some hills for decent production). It will be prejudiced towards Great Merchants because of the Temple of Artemis, so maybe I should exploit that. The Great Lighthouse has not yet been built; should I get a Lighthouse going in Bibracte next, then the wonder? And perhaps I should also get Metal Casting before too long and build a forge and the Colossus in Bibracte? What techs to Great Merchants lightbulb, anyway? Exploiting GMs might be cool, I haven't tried that before. And Caste System would let us pump them out like there's no tomorrow.

What about techs? I have chosen Mathematics with an eye towards Construction for War Elephants and Catapults. Metal Casting for the Colossus as noted above might be nice, but I think it can wait, especially if I take a whack at the Great Lighthouse first.

This is turning into a fun romp, I have to say.

You did notice that Brennus founded Judaism in Vienne?


But congrats on a great plan, and the execution was as nice. ToA and Hinduism established for you with nearby in horses. And now for Keshiks coupled with your axeman in true mongol style!

TheArchduke said:

You did notice that Brennus founded Judaism in Vienne?

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That may turn out to be an extremely fortunate circumstance. +2 culture per turn for the palace, +5 culture per turn for the holy city. Which means in 22 turns or so, Vienne is going to start competing with Cumae for control of the iron.

Wouldn't it be nice if Caesar loses that resource before he can start pounding out the Praets?

Nice round, but we really need to see some Keshik action soon.

Do my eyes deceive me, or does Julius NOT have his iron connected yet? Does he even have Iron Working?? Looks like the time is ripe to make him your second victim, especially since he's gone Jewish and the Buddist bloc won't care if you attack him! I'd keep a close eye on his grassland iron and watch for a worker to start improving it...if you can knock out Julius before he gets Praetorians, that would be great!!!

Great Lighthouse in Bibracte sounds very tempting, and the city definitely has enough hammers to build it quickly. I'd say it depends on how committed you are to war in the next round...

You definitely want a fourth city to claim marble/corn/wine (1SE of corn would be my choice.) As for Iron, I'd prefer a city 2E of the desert iron, to claim the silk and prevent Mansa from getting there first.

A minor nitpick...if you researched Mysticism before Iron Working, you might have been able to pick up Polytheism from Brennus's peace deal. Then you could've researched Monotheism now (for Organized Religion, VERY helpful when building wonders) and possibly traded for Meditation. (BTW, is Mansa pleased with you yet? See if he'll give you Meditation for free...)

At some point you'll need to build a galley to explore that island off your coast...who knows, it might have a tribal hut that will pop another tech for you!

Gray, Black, Pink, Purple and Green Dot & X remain the same.

Blue dot now has a lot of Overlap with Beshbalik, the alternative would be Blue X but you lose a Grassland tile and gain overlap with Pink Dot.

Yellow dot has been moved SW to decrease overlap Purple dot and to gain more Grassland tiles overall, it also gains extra overlap with Beshbalik in it's NW part of it's FC, the alternative would be Yellow X but gains too many Dessert tiles at cost of 2 Plains tiles at it's far east.

Orange Dot is the Same, but the Alternative Orange X (1S of the corn) will have less overlap with Green t but gains 2 extra peaks and loses the fresh water bonus. Orange X maybe the better location as Green dot can work ALL of it's tiles as it has enough food so decreasing overlap maybe the better option, Orange X also gets 2 new Grassland tiles, ! over the Peaks in the West and 1 behind the peaks in the SW.



On other business, I'd improve my economy before attacking Mansa with your Horde of UU. The following options are:

-Settling Gray Dot/X for early Commerce from furs,
-Cottage Spamming and Force your Cities to work them,
-Research Currency/COLs & Construction.

If you had no gold in your Treasury you'd be running in the positive at 60% Research.

I'd get a few UU Horse Archers into position to pillage his Iron and copper Resources (especially to the north if he's settled there already) before the War.

I think it's too late to rush Mansa's Capital with your UU but I think they'd do relatively well against the newer Cities.

GM can lightbulb Civil Service if you've research the following techs, Currency, Monarchy, Metal Casting and COLs.

Later in the Game after You research Nationalism they lightbulb Constitution, assuming you have not Researched/Traded for Guilds, which will lead the GM towards Banking and Economics.

Awesome round, Sisiutil. Taking out Brennus was definitely the way to go. Remember, it's still 685 BC! You're doing very well. My current recommendation? Keep closed borders with Brennus, slap a few (1 or 2) cities down to block him off while you build your horde, and then Keshik Mansa. His territory is better than JC's and Brennus's, and if you bottle up Brennus and JC they won't be a threat, and you'll have vast expanses of space to settle; just don't let it get filled in by opportunistic AI settlers.

Worries with this plan are JC and Churchill. JC is pretty mean, but if you work on him diplomatically I think you'll be okay because of Brennus acting as a barrier.

Churchill might attack, but he looks far away (I can't see english colors on the res. map, though that doesn't mean they're not there). If you can quickly capture the Buddhist home city, then you can get a higher "Brothers and Sisters of the Faith" modifier that ought to outweigh the "You Declared War On Our Friends" modifier. IIRC the founder gets better mods than random civs sharing a religion.

The other option is settlers to block Mansa, then building up to kill Brennus and/or JC. Not quite as nice a payoff, but you retain many more diplo bonuses and are well off.

Either way, your production should be excellent at this point. You have 2 capitols! Capitols are traditionally very nicely placed w/ regards to resources and production, and Brennus's was no exception. Horses, pigs, clams, and bananas isn't a bad draw.

well, you do get credit for sticking with what you said you'd do in the pre-game show to some extent. "As for religion and wonders--meh. We'll capture both rather than researching or pursuing them, I suspect. For the most part, anyway, especially early in the game." *giggle*. i truly had my doubts about whether you could do that, i admit it. but you have! one holy city and one wonder down! i'll not count your thoughts of actually making those water wonders yourself against you yet

teensy nitpick about when churchill demanded that you stop trading with brennus: "Now I have an additional diplomatic bonus with Churchill..." it's not that you earned a bonus with churchill, it's that you avoided getting a negative with him. if you say yes you stay the same as you are with churchill (but get a negative with brennus), if you say no then you get a negative with churchill (and brennus never bothers to send a thank you note). good call, it's what i'd have done, just nitpicking about your wording.

"No wonder Julius is in next-to-last place--his territory kind of sucks." seriously! the guy's UU needs iron, and he lives in jungle-ville, and all of his resources are in jungle that needs to be cleared. what the heck is he thinking, has he never heard of beelines?

Did you recognize Romans adopting Judaism? Watch out, you are their nearest neigbour now and they probably don't like you much. Brennus is going to be their buddy, so they come for you. Even their starting location is poor, they will get IW soon and after that their land will look much more productive. Don't forget praetorian threat, they have iron nearby.