Amusing Ironies

huh.
Clearly i'm wrong, but i think it might be a bug.

Believe me.
I had the option to build the gate when i played as Hyborem.
It is possible that this was tue to a bug but none the less it was pretty interesting.

Hyborem can be saved. If he stops worshipping the veil he can build the gate. If Basium comes he won't declare war on him, Basium hates the Ashen Veil, not the infernals. Or more specifically Basium hates Agares, who the Veil worships. If Hyborem is redeemed Basium will leave him alone.

The AI will never do it (summon Basium with Hyborem) but I left it as an obscure option for human players. I figured someone would want to run a Basium/Hyborem team.

I can justify most combinations, the point of FfH is to allow them, and the civs and religions were picked specifically for their ability to be interchanged with each other. But I must admit, the Cult of the Dragon Dragon Slayer is pretty funny.

Kael said:

Hyborem can be saved. If he stops worshipping the veil he can build the gate. If Basium comes he won't declare war on him, Basium hates the Ashen Veil, not the infernals. Or more specifically Basium hates Agares, who the Veil worships. If Hyborem is redeemed Basium will leave him alone.

The AI will never do it (summon Basium with Hyborem) but I left it as an obscure option for human players. I figured someone would want to run a Basium/Hyborem team.

I can justify most combinations, the point of FfH is to allow them, and the civs and religions were picked specifically for their ability to be interchanged with each other. But I must admit, the Cult of the Dragon Dragon Slayer is pretty funny.

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Well I'll be darned. Is that really an intended possibility? I suppose it does mean that the outcasts can actually group together although it still seems a bit weird considering that Basium's introduction says "We've come to fight the Infernal."

"We came to fight the Infernal, but We soon realized they are pretty decent fellows after all. Now, We fight the Amurites!"

Curse those mages!

Hehehe
But who is Hyborem anyway? He obviously isn't Agares himself or incarnation of evil, so I would hate to think he is just a minor Agares's henchman

I was under the impression he's Agares' right-hand man, in the same way that Cassiel was Dagda's and Basium was Arawn's. I might be way off, though.

Shadius said:

I was under the impression he's Agares' right-hand man, in the same way that Cassiel was Dagda's and Basium was Arawn's. I might be way off, though.

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You're exactly right, he's the archangel of entropy. Just as Sabathiel is Junil's (as well as the other ones you mentioned).

For most of the gods their archangel is the leader of their angels. But Agares doesn't have an oganized hierarchy. Instead he encourages his angels to compete with each other, and any hierarchy that does exist is pretty fluid. But when he needs something special done, Hyborem is usually the one he calls on.

here's one: using govannon to teach druids to cast death magic

I built the Mercurian Gate as Hyborem (with no state religion) in my first game with .20. However, the game promptly crashed and I haven't tried again. The game before that (in .16) I (Flouros) forced Basium to adopt the Veil as the condition for a peace treaty, and got Hyborem to follow the Runes. It seems odd to me that formerly good, Ashen Veil civs still speak out againts evil, and still hate death/entropy mana so much. My solution to that is often to give those mana types away to whoever hates them the most. Sabathiel usually ends up with both death and entropy. One game (after giving her several ritualists in an attempt to convert her) Ethne fought me (Hyborem) using only Veil units, but stuck to her Runes even when the Veil was the only religion in any of her cities (I got the Armegeddon counter to 100 that game).

kenken244 said:

here's one: using govannon to teach druids to cast death magic

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death is merely the renewel of life into earth, so that life may begin anew...

Isn't Death in FfH more accurately described as Undeath?/Necromancy?

Yes. It is a violation of Arawnian death, which would be the continuation in the lifecycle to which eerr refers.

Nero's fire said:

I can see it now:"Sure, he may be a blood sucking, canabalistic murderer... but he did say he would lower taxes..."

I assume the case for vampires with republic would be that only vampires are considered to be citizens... this seems a bit more like an oligarchy since vampires would have to be a minority in the society and while they could definatly call themselves a republic (china does) they would hardly be a legitimate one. In other words, unless the majority votes in public officials I don't see the vampires truly responding to this.

But ironic or not, the great thing about FfH is it allows you to do that. Create your own unlikely but possible reason for a republic vampire state. Maybe they are good vampires, who only eat criminals or foriegners. Or perhaps they have powerful control over peoples minds. Maybe even something as simple as a society that actually believes eating people is an acceptable thing for people to do. Still seeing Chand post that made me crack up.

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again, you are confusing the concept of republic with democracy. These things are not the same (especially as you are talking about the Western Democracry, but not the original Attic Demokratia)

You are certainly aware that even in the New England States of America in the end of the 19th century there was no equality in treatment of all classes , even when all classes were allowed to vote. (in opposition to Europe were even in late 19th centuries even the Western European States allowed only male taxpayers to vote at all. If you were too poor and in general female you were simply excluded). Still we consider these states to be republics.

Obviously in a Vampire Republic the right to vote would be limited. But this does not mean that only Vampires will have to be considered citizen. More likely all male taxpayers (notice: this includes large chunks of underclass , too) and all Vampires (male and female) would be a good basis. Certainly in such a scenario the Vampires would only 'punish' (hunt) the classes who have no right to vote. This could be subclasses of underclass, but more likely be outcasts (if you have caste system established) or poor immigrants. But this is not different from the feudal scenario were the Vampires are snatching some young and unmarried (and without family) village girl from time to time and nobody really bothers.

So this republic scenario would be completely fine with the established upperclass (mostly belonging the Vampire Patricians themselves) and the upcoming middle class striving to become a Patrician and maybe to buy a glimpse of the eternal life with enough expenditure on the 'right' friends.
Nevertheless, as Orwell states out (1984), people go for revolutions not when they are suppressed but when they see an easy way to graps power.
So as long as the Calabim state is striving and under good governance nobody would even think about replacing the Vampires on top - I mean they do a good job after all and they are damn experienced in all matters of life not to mention their vast amount of knowledge. Who cares what they eat. Some people are vegetarians,some people are eating meat and some people are eating humans ..( but not all humans but just the worthless ones).

Just imagine a poshy fancy party where we all go hunting in the slums at midnight as the highlight .. One really good looking young aristocratic vampire lad is chasing a quite dirty but at least healthy slum girl. Eventually he catches her and gives her her first and final peek .. All his friends (Vampires and Non-Vampires alike) are cheering him and applauding. Later after the official investigation the police states out that she was a homeless and familyless ragpicker, not to mention a notorious thief and a prostitute, immoral by all means. The young lad was fined 50 gold for violating the Rules of Hunt Registration. His family is very unhappy about his ignorance to law. It was his 100th birthday and he was certainly in very jolly mood. Nevertheless the young lad is sorry and promises that next time he will register his party HUNT ..........

Even more likely .. some poor fellow is selling his life for a considerable amount of money (that goes to his family). In this way he declares himself a prey that can be hunted in strictly ruled out bloodsports (no collateral victims etc.). The whole procedure is documented and defined in two volumes of the Combined Public Law of Calabim. You need to study at least one semester to learn about all the details....
or .. or .. or
As long as there are strict rules that punish any Vampire who feasts from 'protected' classes this society would be damn good shape. (notice that in this scenario Alexis would have been sidelined by her family as she is simply notorious. She is now serving as a abbey matron in the Church of the Octopii. Her brother Flaurus is senator of the Prespur State. He will candidate for presidency next year as candidate for the 'United Calabim'-Party. This is the conservative more traditional party in opposition to the reformed 'New Born' Party which is currently ruling the state)

In any way Vampires are more human than we like to believe .. they simply represent our desire for omnipotence and eternal life .. very human concepts ..

(or to quote Quark in Star Trek - Deep Space Nine: "You Humans call us Ferengis greedy Barbarians. But if I look into human history I see slavery, concentration camps and atomic wars. Ferengy history has nothing of these astrocities. We are better than you!")

Why all this about Vamparic republics, I think that Clan of Embers..... or any barbarian civ which is a republic is the worst. Looking at Clan, a people who decided on the leader by him being the biggest and strongest, republic does not seem to go.

How about, you have the ability to treat people as bad as possabile with sacrifice the weak. To kill them in your rituals and religion..... but you cannot capture slaves?!?

Schoolarship with barbarians.

Scortched earth and Public healers.

Slavery and protect the meek.

Guarding of Nature and casting enthropy spells

Is that enough

chocmushroom said:

Why all this about Vamparic republics, I think that Clan of Embers..... or any barbarian civ which is a republic is the worst. Looking at Clan, a people who decided on the leader by him being the biggest and strongest, republic does not seem to go.

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Perhaps the Council of Tough Guys votes on who among them is the Toughest, and shall be Ruler.

chocmushroom said:

How about, you have the ability to treat people as bad as possabile with sacrifice the weak. To kill them in your rituals and religion..... but you cannot capture slaves?!?

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Animal Husbandry: Everyone but the followers of the Overlords thinks slavery is wrong. You can sacrifice the weak, but that's letting them die rather than forcing them to live a miserable existence.

chocmushroom said:

Schoolarship with barbarians.

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We value knowledge, we're just really not good at getting it.

chocmushroom said:

Scortched earth and Public healers.

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OUR people are cared for. **** everyone else. BURN IT TO THE GROUND!

chocmushroom said:

Slavery and protect the meek.

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They may be slaves, but we like to give them good health care - makes them last longer.

chocmushroom said:

Guarding of Nature and casting enthropy spells

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Well, if you also have nature spells, you can wither the enemy's lands, making them easier to capture, and restore them once they're safely in your possession.

The idea being that it's sort of fun to imagine how these sorts of situations work. I had an Amurite army composed almost entirely of Wizards running Military Discipline rather than Scholarship. This doesn't mean my mages are learning swordplay, it means they're learning how to execute battle plans, and fire volleys of fireballs together.

Well I could swallow scorched earth and public healers-their point is destroying infrastructure, not killing populace, and besides they are caring for their own people, but not for others. And whats wrong with orc republic? They are race just like humans and elves, they can be enlightened as well. If fact I would call you a racist!!!
For vampire republic, I dont know, you could justify it but its effects couln't be the same as Malakim or Elohim republic, I mean in GP,culture and happiness bonus.

If fact I would call you a racist!!!

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Orks, elfs, dwarfs are not a sub-rase of human. They are different species so not a racist but specieist [or whatever you spell it]

chocmushroom said:

Slavery and protect the meek.

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Naw, we only enslave the proud aristocrats...