ALC Game 14: Mongolia/Kublai Khan

Ha, good idea to put out your impressions of the consensus to focus the discussion. You a manager in RL, Sisiutul?

I agree with all the consensuses except switching to MM. Once you start warring with MM, the rest of the Buddhists will start to dislike you. If you lose your foreign trade routes, it'll be quite the gutpunch to your economy. MM alone is probably most of your trade anyway. I think it's particularly bad to do a plunder war, since that won't take him out and you'll probably end up declaring peace and then war again. I say wait on attacking MM until you're ready to make the run for the win, or at least to wipe out all others on the continent. To me it seems simpler to go after JC once your economy is buffed up, with the Buddhists cheering on your war against the infidel. JC's cities will be decent with the jungle cleared, and you'll have plenty of base to comfortably obliterate everybody on the continent without having to hold back a stack in case JC declares.

Settling a GP can be a very good move in a long game, especially if done in a well chosen city (like a GM in the future Manhattan), and especially if you plan to run a lot of Representation. However, this game looks unlikely to go long, you may never get around to building Wall Street, and since you'll probably get liberalism/free Speech before Representation, so I don't see settling as a good move. OTOH, London's large size for this stage means the trade mission is unusually good.

Don't forget that literature allow the Heroic Epic, which will really help your plans.

I think you might wanna send the GM to London.

After looking at the save, this is the plan I would consider.

-don't make peace with Caesar just yet. You have your stack three tiles away from Pisae. Raze it. It's worth another 150 gold or so. Raze Ravenna too. that one keshik can probably do it himself. You'll need that gold to keep research at 100% to get Construction in 10 turns.

-then declare peace. The hill cities will give you too many losses with the troops you have. Come back with maceman. His land is destroyed, he won't get longbows anytime soon. Just don't let him settle the iron city.

-then send your stack west and attack mansa. His cities will be great for you as they will be able to pay for themselves with Kumbi Saleh's gem mines and Djenne's spices. take out the city NW of Bibracte and fall on Kumbi Saleh. You'll need elephants and catapults to take the cities without veteran losses, so get those up quick by running to construction at 100%.

-on to the details of a mansa war, what you don't want to see is longbows. So, the sooner you attack, the faster you'll cripple his economy and so on. Now, as Mongolia you have keshiks which can run right in and pillage key tiles to keep him down. While your troops are sieging the cities, get stacks of 2-3 keshiks to each of the major cities. keep the gem mines, just leave units on top of the tiles to keep them from being worked, but everything else must go. Mansa doesn't have monarchy yet but churchill does, and feudalism will come next

-on to the economy. A settled GM, especially in 205 BC, provides the most long term benefit. In a in a recent game with Carthage i settled two BC GMs in a holy city and was able tech at 90-100% for most of the game, on to an early diplo win. In your case, i think the money would be better. You see, I wonder if you can beeline to Engineering, turn off research, and war to victory. That's still quite a few techs, constuction, COL, Metal Casting, Machinery, CS and Engineering to be exact, but it might be doable. But with wars and pillaging and a 1st and 2nd GM trade mission, you might just be able to tech at 100% the whole way. So go to London, whip a market and get two Merchants in Bibracte. I think doing the shrine economy by spamming missionaries everywhere is too much of a distraction.

-nitpicking.
One way to be able to support a larger military (you already have 8gpt in unit costs, + supply) is to have a larger population. Grow your cities. Karakorum needs more grassland farms. Put cottages on the plains.

-trading
I agree that you could use calendar but i don't know if you wanna be giving away military techs. Then again your ger promoted keshiks should handle any horse archer. I also noticed mansa will attack julius for HR. I know once he declares he'll build up for war, but if you were to attack him 2-8 turns later (about the same time it takes to more troops for Pisae to Mansa). Whatever. It's probably a bad idea.

-builds
I agree on the marble city. Maintinence will rise but it has enough commerce (marble, river) to pay for itself. Go 1NE of marble as you lose a peak/gain a hill (I don't think you'll ever build the fish city).
Edit- maybe or maybe not this is a good idea. HE is definately helpful, but i wonder exactly how much its mantenance amd comerce will really affect your research. It all depends on the "price" of getting to Literature and also much past it. but going on feeling, i say you build it, but i could be wrong.

Buddhist monastary huh? if you look at the numbers, in the ten turns it takes to finish construction, it will provide 30 of the 783 beakers. At that rate, it speeds things up about 4/10ths of a turn. Helpful, but not really that significant. finish it if you want to (and the settler), and then build two keshiks to take out gao's horses.
Edit-This game is all about the little things adding up. The monastary, or monastaries, contributing in tandem from key cities, is only gonna increase your research. Whether or not they are more valuble at this moment as opposed to two keshiks I don't know if I can answer. I think success in this game is producing "just enough" in some ways (militarily in this case) and heading for maximun in others (research). So when you get to Engineering, you'll want successful "up to Engineerring" cities, which in specific situations, may very well mean a monastary.

As always, entertaining and well played. Good luck.

Sisiutil said:

Yeah, I puzzled over cabert's point with the GM for a while too, but I think that's what he meant. I dunno, seems like a weak use of a Great Person to me. I'm still leaning towards the trade mission to fund deficit research.

Click to expand...

it very much depends on how long you expect the game to last, how significantly the money crunch is hurting you right now, how temporary you think that is. if a short-term fix is all you need, then a decision about a pillaging war with pointy stick research is in order and you have to decide if that'll be enough of a boost or not. a trade mission might be just the thing, particularly with london being so big. one of the downsides of capturing ToA is that you don't get to send GMs to that city, it usually gets mega-profits. i've gotten almost double from a ToA non-capital city compared to capitals farther away with greater population.

my perspective is admittedly warped atm, since i'm aiming to have a game last until 2050 for an HoF gauntlet. i cheer when i pop a great merchant or prophet to settle in my lovely lovely shrine city *giggle*. if your game goes til 2050, well, you're insane more insane than i thought you were.

I would not make peace with Caesar just yet. If you do, he'll certainly have a spare settler he's holding onto to go re-claim the former Cumae site. If you are intent on keeping him from claiming that site, you should keep your units around Caesar's borders, use the Keshiks to go pillage and harass, keep an eye out for one of his Settlers coming out to try to take the site back, then wipe it out.

Meanwhile, get one settler built to claim the site you want, and then you can go from there as to whether it's smart to make peace with Caesar and rebuild a bit, or to just go in and finish him off for good.

I'd keep an eye on the barbie city as well, because Mansa is almost certain to go after it for himself.

As for tech trades, do not trade Horseback Riding to anybody. See if you can do Alphabet for Calendar.

The GM... I usually have the GMs get the big trade route for lots of good, and don't actively pursue them in my games, so I'll defer to the knowledge of everyone else for the best use for him at this point in the game.

Personally i would throw anything at JC , see how advanced Mansa is and then try to pillage him before he gets Feudalism. Besides that is how the Horde should play. I think the gold you can get from London would be a great asset for the total war you would create.

Take the above as you will because i am sure you have your own experience in the game.

It looks like the the game leaning itself for a really early domination win, isn't it Sisiutil? The rest of the facts must be seen from that perspective. For a example, most probably settling the GM may not pay itself vs the trade mission, given the usefulness of a quick money injection. The settling of the marble city would be a smart move, because that city can pay itself in a short/medium number of turns.
My sketch of a game plan would be raze Antium and that 1 pop city in the north, ask for peace with JC, trade mission the GM, 100% research Construction and CoL, build a cat/elephant army + with some city raider units, attack Mali ( I have the feeling that he's beelining Feudalism) and atleast capture the gems/iron city, the capitol and the spice city ( they will more than pay itself), do the necessary whipings, regroup, hit the bulldog hard, and last but not least, the German guy. With or without finishing JC ( the situation doesn't require more than a 2/3 kek force for assuring that that guy won't have iron anytime in the near future), this sould be a almost assured domination victory, maybe even before meeting the slightly wonder happy mistery man ( or woman )

P.S. : How about sweaten Bismark with a Myst candy? It will give you a +1 in the diplo and maybe that would be enough for the calendar trade ( the bulldog won't trade if for alphabet, rats...)

I think it will be very interesting & informative to see if you decide
to take the collective advice & try to take on a two front war.
my experience with the game & the lessons of history would show this is NOT a good idea (see napoleon -WW1 -WW2 etc).
Rome is weak but far away ,mansa is stong but close and has lots of stuff (gems -spices- a holy city) you will want to keep .
the UU of the khan might be the only one capable of pulling the two front war off ,but you really dont have many cities that can really pump out military units (heroic Epic ?) do you
Looking forward to the next post

Round 7: 205 BC to 605 AD

I started the round by making that somewhat controversial tech trade with Churchill:



Yes, it does give him Horseback Riding. But remember I said way back that one of the big benefits of researching HBR early (or, in my case, gaining it by fluke from a hut) is that the AI hyper-values it, making it very handy for tech trading. As I don't expect to go up against Churchill anytime soon, it made no sense to hoard it (if you'll excuse the homonymic pun).

I took your suggestions to finish Caesar to heart and kept pressing him, even in the absence of Catapults:



I was very luck in the battle; I attacked with a CR1 Sword and a CRIII Axe, and both survived. I razed the city, as it has little to offer other than being a drag on my already-sluggish economy. I also earned my first Great General from this battle, whom I attached to a Combat I/Medic I Keshik as a mobile M*A*S*H unit (Medic I, II, III and March).

In spite of the economic challenges I was facing, I stuck to my guns and founded my next city.



Just in time, too... there was a Settler accompanying Mansa's Skirmisher in the upper left, there. Mansa has been expanding like crazy into territory that is rightfully Mongolia's. (Come to think of it, all of his territory is rightfully Mongolia's, isn't it?) He built a city right beside the western gold tile, he took the barb city next to the southwestern horses and pigs, and he even had the nerve to found a city on the southern coast beside the wheat (which somehow manages to miss both the deer and the whale tiles). This is the sort of behaviour by the AI that bugs me, not because it's illogical like so much else the AI does, but because it's irritating. Mansa is not long for this earth.

And I have just the tools now to ensure that's the case:



Catapults and Ger-powered War Elephants. Yahoo! However, I did not launch a pillaging war against Mansa this round. I devoted myself to finishing off Caesar. Perhaps I should have weakened Mansa, but taking Caesar's remaining cities and keeping my economy going was sufficiently taxing, thank you very much.

Oh, that Great Merchant? I sent him to London:



Not spectacular, but it ensured that I could keep research running at 100% for several turns. Almost all the cities I could have sent him to would have given me 1350 gold. I chose London because, since it's the largest city around, I kinda hoped that amount might change by the time he got there. No such luck, but the result is nothing to sniff at this early in the game.

Another reason to keep Mansa around for a while: he is, as always, a very good tech trading partner.



I switched to Hereditary Rule right away. I'm being careful with Mansa, however--I prefer to trade techs to Churchill or Bismarck if I can, since I anticipate them being later targets, and I want Mansa to have as few advantages as possible when I come after him.

I kept taking and razing Roman cities:



Neapolis cost me a CRII Swordsman. My CR III Axe, however, continues to shine, as you can see. Shortly after this, he earned his next promotion:



Yes, by this time, I had a War Elephants and a Catapult or two, which helped ensure the Axeman's survival. Antium I kept, as it will give me both dye and sugar.

So the Axeman appears to the the star of the show! (Sounds like he should have his own comic book, doesn't he? "The Amazing Axeman! His super-powers: the proportionate strength of... er, well, a big hulking guy with a sharp axe.)

What of the Keshiks? Are they merely spectators to the Amazing Axeman's awesome adventures?

Not so. The Krazy Keshiks have proven their worth time and again. Three of them razed Ravenna all on their own, surviving and earning promotions on the way. And they have also dominated on open ground. The Keshiks have killed numerous Archers that Caesar has sent out. They were intercepted attempting to enter my territory to loot and pillage. ("I am shocked... shocked to discover that the Romans would resort to pillaging!" "Your looted gold, sir." "Oh, ahem, yes, why thank you..." ) Some were also escorting Settlers. Yes, even in the midst of warfare, the AI is consistent in that regard. I think I earned 2 free Workers out of it:



Shortly after I took Antium, I finished researching Civil Service. Before that, I'd picked up Metal Casting. Then I did some tech-trading soft shuffle. First off, I managed to weasel Polytheism from Bismarck, the only remaining Buddhist I hadn't hit up for a "spare this for a friend" tech. I didn't change civics just yet, which, yes, I know will shock most of you. On the next turn I went to see Churchill to get another civic-granting tech:



With both Bureaucracy and Organized Religion now in hand, it was, indeed, time for a civics change:



Now give this some thought: I now have marble, Literature, and a triple boost to production in the capital (a forge, OR, and Bureaucracy). Guess what I started building (and chopping) as soon as anarchy ended?

Meanwhile, I finished off Julius:



The last couple of battles were made easier by the presence of Catapults, of course. And look at that: 5 Workers! By the end of the round, Antium's sugar and dye were hooked up and giving everyone in Mongolia a warm, happy feeling and a few cavities to boot.

I then spent a few turns shoring up my creaky economy. Against all odds, despite not researching Literature on my own, Karakorum managed to churn out my first wonder of the game:



The only complication, of course, is that the capital is low on food, making it hard to run additional scientists. I may have to farm some of the riverside grassland tiles. All those lovely cottages! Boo-hoo! that's what I get for moving the capital, I guess.

Shortly after this, the GL helped finish my next tech:



And I wasn't done with the wonders, gaining another one in Bibracte to help the economy and generate more Great Merchants:



So I can now build Macemen and Crossbowmen, and I've working on Pikemen. Despite the successes, you can see that the economy is in rough shape: -23 GPT at 60% on the slider. I think I have to drop to 30% or so to break even. So is it time for more pointy-stick research, or do I need to focus on the home front?

To help answer that and other questions, a state-of-the-world post will follow this one.

The State of the World, 605 AD

First off, another reason I played to 605 AD was not only to see if I got those two wonders, but also to see what Great Person I spawned in Bibracte. I got another Great Merchant. I suppose a Great Prophet for the Hindu shrine would be better in the long run, but a GM is nothing to scoff at. I think I should send him on another trade mission:



That would support research, as well as some unit upgrades.

A look at the map:



IIRC, Mansa has another city to the far SW (horses and pigs) and NE that don't show up here. I lost all my Scouts to either barbarians or wandering Roman Archers, and all my other units were busy with the war effort. I should send my Flanking II/Sentry Keshik around before I close borders, shouldn't I?

The domestic advisor:



Yes, the courthouses and markets are my attempt to shore up my economy. As for the Parthenon--well, why not? Even if I don't get it, the gold I receive for failing would be handy.

Foreign relations:



Yeah, we're all one big, happy Buddhist family. Until one of us decides to kill somebody. Now who would go and do upset the apple cart like that?

Technologies, especially vis-a-vis my next target, Mansa:



Yes, everyone has Feudalism for Longbows. Why do you think I'm going after Engineering? For Trebuchets, their arch-nemeses, of course!

Techs compared to Bismarck:



And compared to Churchill:



Well, it's no fun being the only kid on the block without big nasty bows and arrows, so I think I ought to somehow get Feudalism from the German. Does everyone agree?

Trade deals:



Military advisor:



Power graph:



Looks like a dead heat, but remember that most of the AI's units are likely Longbowmen, i.e. Treb food.

Demographics:



Well, that's not so bad! My GNP is fourth out of a field of... oh.

Top 5 cities/wonders:



Still no idea who the mystery civ is. Looks like he/she built Chichen Itza, the wonder without a use.

So I was thinking of finishing the current civilian builds while I research Engineering. The GM goes to London again to finance research and some upgrades (the Amazing Axeman will make a dandy city-busting Maceman, don't you think?). Get Feudalism from Bizzy. Once I have Engineering, I build Trebs, maybe switch to Vassalage to increase the promotion levels, and then unleash H-E-double hockey sticks on Mansa; with his cities, keep the best, raze the rest. Research towards Guilds for Knights (so long, Keshiks! Sniff!). After Mansa, go after Churchill, then Bismarck, rebuild and take over the continent FTW.

Sound like a plan?

if you can trade for feudalism, good for you. Then it's time for pointy stick research vs Churchill (if you can find him) or time to vassalize MM.

Genghis Khan never died! Sisuitill!!! Shake the old word to its knees and burn the land under the monolian banner!!!

I think you can easily cruise here. It might be fun to challenge yourself by thinking about how you can get the fastest win.

It would be interesting to try building fewer buildings than usual.

This would be a great game to try a military beeline: if not in this game, when?
Feudalism (trade)
-> Engineering
-> First scientist Academy
-> Guilds
-> Second scientist Philosophy
-> No Paper!
-> Gunpowder
-> Chemistry (third and fourth scientists)
-> Steel (or turn off research and mass Macemen -> CR Grenadiers)
For faster Scientists you can run 2 in Bibracte, and if you get a Merchant, fine, faster research. Cottages everywhere else. Any Artists can go Music -> Theology, not bad.

If you rapidly expand while running a low research %, then you get as much benefit from Markets and Grocers as Universities, and missing out on the Universities doesn't hurt so much.

Just because the GL *allows* scientists doesn't mean you should run them. They don't do any more research. Three developed cottages produce more than a scientist (+6 to 12 against +3) so let the cottages be. The GP points are quite valuable, but losing value and you should be planning a GP farm any.

I'd say go peaceful for a round of economy-boosting buildings while you grow towards your pop caps. I'd drop any specialists for a while if you've go some growth opportunities. . Remember your economy will take a further hit when you lose trade with Munsa. Then build a treb stack and rip out the heart of Mansa's empire. Kumba Saleh and Timbuktu should produce enough cost to support their upkeep. Then you can go for the extermination win.

Def trade with Bismark. Looks like he's lagging in the tech races so it's basically costless to trade him stuff.

Well, he's already building the National Epic in his Great Library city, so Scientist GPPs get doubled there and with no extra scientists he has a 25% chance of an Artist. Sure, he could put the NE in Bibracte instead.

I don't understand why you razed all the Roman cities, particularly Rome itself. They all had a lot of coastal tiles and with Collossus each of those is effectively an instant grassland village. I doubt many of your other cottages will make it all the way to a town anyway... so a village is going to be good. The Roman peninsula would have been the main commerce source funding the remainder of my conquests if I had been you.

Trade in Bribacte is looking good with 9 and 7 for its two trade routes but that would be more with greater city size. I would have chopped the market into it before chopping either the forge or Collossus. I'd also build grassland farms next to the lake to grow the city as fast as possible. Then you'll be able to run 2 merchants to speed the production of GMs. The ToA will give 5 GPP. Collossus 2 GPP and the 2 merchants 6 GPP for a total of 13 and that could be another 2 or 3 GMs to finance the rest of the domination of this continent.

Research: I see you've selected Engineering and that is a good short term choice. But will this continent be sufficient for domination if you conquer and vassalise the 3 remaining civs? How about a quick detour to research harbour and optics to send a caravel or two to find the other continent(s) before researching Engineering?

i did some comparison with my own game at same point. Of course it means not much because of very different maps, but still some points.

I had 4 opponents on my continent. Had only a little less luck than you with huts (but got 2, HBR and agri (or was it mining ?) ). I decided to go keshiks only because the map was almost only jungle and hills so the ignore terran bit was huge. i did only one sword, and the first catapult is still in construction (keshiks can put done longbow, but not without big losses on hills). So, all war mode in full gear.

More than 40 Ks built, 15 left after encounters with the big bows (but the mighty Ks won in the end). My cities all have only granaries, barracks+ger, courtouses + some forges & libraries.

in the meantime they took or razed 14 cities, Togu is long gone, Isabella so crippled she will never rise again, and gandhi will be finished in less than 10 turns. Washington is next on list.

I had 9 cities against your 7, but they were much smaller right at the time. A bit behind in tech (but not much). my score was also smaller (730) but the others too (not so surprising without any tech whore, no mali nor incas)

later the rate of grow was astonishing when jungles were fully cleared out, and i cruised to conquest (in keeping mongolian spirit, i used mostly cavalry and later tanks ). The level 14 warlord gunship was fun (Combat 6/commando with 80% withdraw chance, nice !!! )

Now, i had the chance to have rome on other continent. Do you feel that, in retrospect, the Ks would have been enough against Rome ?

UncleJJ said:

I don't understand why you razed all the Roman cities, particularly Rome itself. They all had a lot of coastal tiles and with Collossus each of those is effectively an instant grassland village. I doubt many of your other cottages will make it all the way to a town anyway... so a village is going to be good. The Roman peninsula would have been the main commerce source funding the remainder of my conquests if I had been you.

Trade in Bribacte is looking good with 9 and 7 for its two trade routes but that would be more with greater city size. I would have chopped the market into it before chopping either the forge or Collossus. I'd also build grassland farms next to the lake to grow the city as fast as possible. Then you'll be able to run 2 merchants to speed the production of GMs. The ToA will give 5 GPP. Collossus 2 GPP and the 2 merchants 6 GPP for a total of 13 and that could be another 2 or 3 GMs to finance the rest of the domination of this continent.

Research: I see you've selected Engineering and that is a good short term choice. But will this continent be sufficient for domination if you conquer and vassalise the 3 remaining civs? How about a quick detour to research harbour and optics to send a caravel or two to find the other continent(s) before researching Engineering?

Click to expand...

I was wondering about razing Neapolis and/or Rome too - an extra source of clams wouldn't be such a bad thing, if for no other reason than as trade material. Or Rome itself had a double-shot of seafood IIRC, although I vaguely remembering already having fish. But I think the main reason for razing was because the economy was in such bad shape already - don't quote me on that, though.

Other than that, well fought with your Horse-riding Hordes, Sisiutil.
I do like UncleJJ's idea of stirring up a caravel (even though the research is needed to get there) to find the others. Hey, you're 4th out of 4 now economically, maybe you'll be 4th out of 6 after that caravel makes landfall (or was it 7? I can't remember anymore). Odds are, since not a single top city is unknown, you're looking at some backwards hicks that could easily be crushed. Who knows, if they're backwards enough, you might get to keep using your keshiks on them.

curtadams said:

Just because the GL *allows* scientists doesn't mean you should run them. They don't do any more research. Three developed cottages produce more than a scientist (+6 to 12 against +3) so let the cottages be. The GP points are quite valuable, but losing value and you should be planning a GP farm any.

Click to expand...

Jet said:

Well, he's already building the National Epic in his Great Library city, so Scientist GPPs get doubled there and with no extra scientists he has a 25% chance of an Artist. Sure, he could put the NE in Bibracte instead.

Click to expand...

in general i use the Jet thinking on this one. i really don't like the NE artist contamination in a game where the point isn't to get artists. i want it where i'll be running other specialists, or have GPPs from other wonders, to increase my odds. for a game that looks like it'll end quickly, like this one, you may be fine. i can never remember how the GPP formula is figured out ... GLib itself is 2 scientist GPPs for the wonder forever, the 2 scientists it gives are 3 each until scientific method and then turn to 0 (which you may never reach), and National Epic is only 1 GAP, not 2. so i don't know if the 25% is right or not. i don't feel like doing math today, i just feel like looking stuff up.

it is a national wonder, i'm not gonna lose the race for it. sometimes i delay those more than i ought to out of indecisiveness, silly me. it often works out that my capital is food-heavy enough to support quite a few scientists when it's not in production mode, so i try for GLib there, and it gets Oxford and NE. i tend to not try for one of the very first religions any more because i don't want to be stuck with Wall Street in my capital, and if i get a holy city WS is going there for dang sure.

i'm talking general theory for long-term games though, this one looks like it'll end quite early, so apply salt as needed. if this continent is big enough (i haven't loaded the save to check) you may not even reach scientific method eh?

if you do get an Artist, he can be very useful in wartime to get cities out of revolt quickly, and particularly to get useful tiles without having to overcome culture from neighbors you're at peace with when you capture a city. i'm giving Cathy an evil look here, for those tiles you snagged during the interturn after i took Chartres from Louis, and it's still in revolt. grrrrrrrrrrr. but i doubt you'll run into that in this game either.

not a spoiler about this game, but total shameful story about a non-shadow game including a giggly apology to S:

Nice round. Using your last merchant for a trade mission worked well, so no reason you shouldn't do it again. Mansa should be taken out first. Vassalize him, but don't cripple him too much because you want a tech trading partner. Only then will you be strong enough in the dark side of the force to take on Churchill. Do you think you can do all that before Churchy gets those nasty Protective Redcoats? Trade for Feudalism from Bizzy. I can't see him becoming a threat at all during this game, so I'd trade with him as much as possible.

Why did you send the Merchant all the way to London when Kumbeh Saleh (2 turns away) would have yielded the same +1350 gold?