Tubby Rower
Chronic Slacker
do the deal.. I've been advocating being in bed with Epsilon for a while now. it was a big pill to swallow, but after you get it down, the world seems so much simpler.
Department of Stranger Affairs
- Thread starter Bede
- Start date
Kickbooti
Ecclesia Militans
Do the deal. And I think Sweet is right, we should start building some holding forces at the north ends of our country.
killercane
Deity
Well I will tell them we will accept the deal, but I think we should just do a "until we have vanquished our two enemies" kind of thing. Not a game long deal. This is to leave us an out with Innovia.
It seems like these guys are already nervous about us as it is. Saying that to them, I think, would only serve to add a little more fuel to that fire. As well as possibly putting us in the crosshairs ahead of Innovia.
killercane
Deity
Epsilon already said that they are fine with it. We just need to make some diplomatic inroads with Innovia.
Kickbooti
Ecclesia Militans
I don't disagree with your assesment, but in the face of the other team's unwillingness to deal, Epsilon gives us some things we need desperately to progress.
As much as I hate to say it, I think we have to take the cockroach approach to victory - get in a position to survie the holocost and come out on top.
It smacks of a 'live for today' stragegy, but we are behind the eightball and can't really plan for the future with any certainty.
Besides, if we aquit ourselves well in our deal with Epsilon, we can use that as a selling point to Innovia in the future - "we are strong and honorable allies, join with us against Epsilon..." or something like that.
Ummmm ... this research path that Epsilon did up has us researching 13000 beakers vs their 12000 beakers ...
killercane
Deity
Do we want to ask them to throw something else in there on the tech deal?
Innovia is gearing for war. With whom? Likely candidate is Loco. Second likely is us or Epsilon; either would involve us in a war per our agreement.
I contacted 1889 for a pow wow, Innovia's turnplayer, he is out of town and passed a message along to Theoden... yet he is still playing saves. Kind of strange.
Innovia is gearing for war. With whom? Likely candidate is Loco. Second likely is us or Epsilon; either would involve us in a war per our agreement.
I contacted 1889 for a pow wow, Innovia's turnplayer, he is out of town and passed a message along to Theoden... yet he is still playing saves. Kind of strange.
killercane
Deity
Ok I talked a bit with Theoden. They just finished guilds and are doing HBR. They are planning on attacking Loco with their troop buildup. They do not have a defensive pact with Aloha, but are working closely on tech deals/coordinating research. In exchange for his candor I advised that we are on Liberalism, and the thought of attacking Aloha has crossed our minds if we do not settle the rest of our land first. What else do we need to know/need to keep secret?
Edit: A short summary of possible plans with Innovia:
1) 3 way (Aloha, us, Innovia) agaisnt Epsilon @ 1260 AD when our peace runs out. Surely this will succeed. Problems are that Innovia naturally does not want us or Aloha to have the extra land/cities, and maintenance would kill Innovia if they also shared towns. For us, the problem is Aloha and Innovia's long relationship, and the possiblity of a 2 vs. 1 against us. Tech situation with Epsilon is dicey, and we probably coudl not do our deal at this time.
2) Us vs. Aloha, Innovia vs. Loco, then team vs. Epsilon. Innovia provides no military help to Aloha, and hopefully at the end we take down Epsilon, and only 2 teams remain to do a spacerace/late war. Maybe share techs so that both teams are on roughly even starts.
Edit: A short summary of possible plans with Innovia:
1) 3 way (Aloha, us, Innovia) agaisnt Epsilon @ 1260 AD when our peace runs out. Surely this will succeed. Problems are that Innovia naturally does not want us or Aloha to have the extra land/cities, and maintenance would kill Innovia if they also shared towns. For us, the problem is Aloha and Innovia's long relationship, and the possiblity of a 2 vs. 1 against us. Tech situation with Epsilon is dicey, and we probably coudl not do our deal at this time.
2) Us vs. Aloha, Innovia vs. Loco, then team vs. Epsilon. Innovia provides no military help to Aloha, and hopefully at the end we take down Epsilon, and only 2 teams remain to do a spacerace/late war. Maybe share techs so that both teams are on roughly even starts.
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
This is bound to get back to Aloha. If we are going to attack them, we don't want to give them advance notice. Hopefully, tho, it was worth the risk in fostering good relations with Inno. Is it too early to trust them with something like this
considering we just "met" them?
killercane
Deity
Well Theoden pledged upon his honor that the conversation would not reach Aloha or Epsilon, so I put my faith in that; they were pretty forthcoming so it kind of had to be the same on our end. Of course if Aloha switches to Theocracy next turn, we will know where we stand with them. But this is a risk, to be sure, you are right.
Tubby Rower
Chronic Slacker
hmm.. I'd rather stick with one team and stay with them. jumping around with alliances creates a little doubt to what people will share with us. after all if a team was willing to leave their current alliance to ally with us, that would cause me to doubt their motives and what I could trust them with
killercane
Deity
So we want the whole kit and caboodle with Epsilon?
Tubby Rower
Chronic Slacker
maybe not, but I'd think twice about jsut swapping horses mid-stream. that was my point
EDIT:: I am not and have never claimed to be good at diplo, so I'll shut up now and let more-skilled diplomats handle this.
EDIT:: I am not and have never claimed to be good at diplo, so I'll shut up now and let more-skilled diplomats handle this.
I think the deal, as currently structured, is a tad lopsided ...
Epsilon (ranked 1st place) agrees to attack Loco (ranked last placed). We (ranked 4th place) agree to attack Aloha (ranked 3rd place), the current GNP leader.
Epsilon agrees to provide 12,000 beakers worth of technology. We agree to provide 13,000 beakers worth of technology.
Epsilon gives us Feudalism and Music for free.
Personally, I think it would be cheaper to research those 2 techs ourselves.
But the thing to remember about doing deals with Epsilon is that there is always some hidden "gotcha" to the deal. In this case, the gotcha is that Epsilon will consolidate Loco's lands before we have even completed our assault on Aloha. And they will probably be in a position to win a space race without even attacking Innovia. Just a guess, mind you ....
Of course, the not-so-hidden "gotcha" is that we probably lose if we don't do the deal. We've gotten ourselves into a tech hole and Epsilon is the only one that seems to want to trade with us.
Seeing as I'm even worse at the diplomacy, I should probably follow your lead ...
killercane
Deity
Does someone want to write up a proposal for them? Adding in some other technology to make it more even? Im fine with allying fully with Epsilon, but we have to beat them somehow!
Can everyone vote, and add in any revisions to the deal with Epsilon that you want? They have been waiting a while now...
Can everyone vote, and add in any revisions to the deal with Epsilon that you want? They have been waiting a while now...
killercane
Deity
[sorry this took so long to send, it's been drafted, and never got sent when my wife had the baby!]
Dear Piffle,
We are still awaiting a response on our Alliance deal. We trust the long delay is due to slow activity on the forum and not some major problem with the deal?
The issue of a 1,000 trade imbalance in our favor was raised, and let us assure you, we want to make this right. If we cant find a clever (mutually acceptable) way to pay off the 1,000 as the alliance progresses, were willing to promise you a free tech once we reach the end of this current tech plan. (A free tech that will be worth at least 1,000 in all likelihood itll be worth more than 2,000 but were ok with that.)
If this was the only sticking point remaining, hopefully that clears it up. Though were operating under the assumption that our Alliance is on, were still eager to get signatures on the final deal.
All the best,
Your Allies,
Epsilon Team
By the hand of Foreign Minster General_W
Dear Piffle,
We are still awaiting a response on our Alliance deal. We trust the long delay is due to slow activity on the forum and not some major problem with the deal?
The issue of a 1,000 trade imbalance in our favor was raised, and let us assure you, we want to make this right. If we cant find a clever (mutually acceptable) way to pay off the 1,000 as the alliance progresses, were willing to promise you a free tech once we reach the end of this current tech plan. (A free tech that will be worth at least 1,000 in all likelihood itll be worth more than 2,000 but were ok with that.)
If this was the only sticking point remaining, hopefully that clears it up. Though were operating under the assumption that our Alliance is on, were still eager to get signatures on the final deal.
All the best,
Your Allies,
Epsilon Team
By the hand of Foreign Minster General_W
killercane
Deity
Epsilon says they will send us cavalry. Here is the revised treaty to send to them. It has the Lend Lease thing and the extra tech for them to send us (do we want to be specific about which tech?).
Piffle-Epsilon Grand Alliance Treaty
Article 1: Alliance
It is hereby agreed that Piffle and Epsilon shall be allied until they are the only 2 remaining teams in the world.
Until the last opposing team is eliminated, Piffle and Epsilon will cooperate for mutual advancement, defense, and forgo hostile actions of any sort toward the alliance.
This alliance can be dissolved prior to the elimination of the last team only by mutual agreement of both parties.
Article 2: Technology
Both Epsilon and Piffle agree to make no trades with the other teams unless they have express permission from their ally
Piffle agrees to allow Epsilon to sell a few non-key techs to Loco for gold, to accelerate Epsilons research Epsilon will notify Piffle about the details of each of these sales.
Piffle and Epsilon agree to coordinate their research to reach Cavalry and Astronomy as soon as possible and then to continue to work together after that for mutual benefit, with a focus on getting Rifling.
To better coordinate, both teams agree to follow this rough schedule which can be modified at anytime by joint agreement of the teams. Epsilon agrees to provide one more technology under the previous schedule, which probably would be Steel, Scientific Method, or Steam Power or the equivalent.
Note: All beaker amounts in this chart are based on actual in-game beakers (approx 1.4x base beakers) and assumes an average research rate of 200bpt.
Article 3: War
Epsilon will attack and hold the lands of Loco, while Piffle attacks and holds the lands of Aloha.
Recognizing that while both Loco and Aloha are about equal on the bottom rung of the power graph, Loco is an easier target due to some technological backwardness, Epsilon will gift the knowledge of Music and Feudalism to Piffle without condition to help make up the imbalance.
If Innovia moves to defend either Loco or Aloha by declaring war on either ally, then the Alliance will shift aid to the beleaguered ally.
For Example, If Innovia were to declare war on Piffle, then Epsilon agrees to gift, say, at least 1 cavalry unit every 5 turns to Piffle until peace is made with Innovia, until Aloha is destroyed, or until Piffle notifies Epsilon that they no longer need support. This deal would work both ways.
When the time comes to attack and destroy Innovia, both teams agree to a fair division of Innovias land and cities. The definition of fair will be mutually agreed upon when the time comes, but fair cannot mean less than 45% of Innovian Cities or Population for either ally unless agreed to by both parties based on other strategic considerations that may arise.
Article 4: Misc
Finally, it is agreed that Epsilon and Piffle will favor each other in all resource trade deals and seek opportunities to advance both empires via trade. Foremost is a happiness resource deal that has been previously discussed.
Article 5: Lend Lease Act
Epsilon will provide approximately 5 promoted cavalry to Piffle to aid Piffle's invasion of Aloha (30-40 turns). These cavalry or their equivalent will be returned at the end of the war. Military aid from Piffle will also be available at the end of this war, should anything arise.
Piffle-Epsilon Grand Alliance Treaty
Article 1: Alliance
It is hereby agreed that Piffle and Epsilon shall be allied until they are the only 2 remaining teams in the world.
Until the last opposing team is eliminated, Piffle and Epsilon will cooperate for mutual advancement, defense, and forgo hostile actions of any sort toward the alliance.
This alliance can be dissolved prior to the elimination of the last team only by mutual agreement of both parties.
Article 2: Technology
Both Epsilon and Piffle agree to make no trades with the other teams unless they have express permission from their ally
Piffle agrees to allow Epsilon to sell a few non-key techs to Loco for gold, to accelerate Epsilons research Epsilon will notify Piffle about the details of each of these sales.
Piffle and Epsilon agree to coordinate their research to reach Cavalry and Astronomy as soon as possible and then to continue to work together after that for mutual benefit, with a focus on getting Rifling.
To better coordinate, both teams agree to follow this rough schedule which can be modified at anytime by joint agreement of the teams. Epsilon agrees to provide one more technology under the previous schedule, which probably would be Steel, Scientific Method, or Steam Power or the equivalent.
Note: All beaker amounts in this chart are based on actual in-game beakers (approx 1.4x base beakers) and assumes an average research rate of 200bpt.
Article 3: War
Epsilon will attack and hold the lands of Loco, while Piffle attacks and holds the lands of Aloha.
Recognizing that while both Loco and Aloha are about equal on the bottom rung of the power graph, Loco is an easier target due to some technological backwardness, Epsilon will gift the knowledge of Music and Feudalism to Piffle without condition to help make up the imbalance.
If Innovia moves to defend either Loco or Aloha by declaring war on either ally, then the Alliance will shift aid to the beleaguered ally.
For Example, If Innovia were to declare war on Piffle, then Epsilon agrees to gift, say, at least 1 cavalry unit every 5 turns to Piffle until peace is made with Innovia, until Aloha is destroyed, or until Piffle notifies Epsilon that they no longer need support. This deal would work both ways.
When the time comes to attack and destroy Innovia, both teams agree to a fair division of Innovias land and cities. The definition of fair will be mutually agreed upon when the time comes, but fair cannot mean less than 45% of Innovian Cities or Population for either ally unless agreed to by both parties based on other strategic considerations that may arise.
Article 4: Misc
Finally, it is agreed that Epsilon and Piffle will favor each other in all resource trade deals and seek opportunities to advance both empires via trade. Foremost is a happiness resource deal that has been previously discussed.
Article 5: Lend Lease Act
Epsilon will provide approximately 5 promoted cavalry to Piffle to aid Piffle's invasion of Aloha (30-40 turns). These cavalry or their equivalent will be returned at the end of the war. Military aid from Piffle will also be available at the end of this war, should anything arise.
