ALC Game 14: Mongolia/Kublai Khan

Oh, what god has condemned us to this cruel fate? Sisiutil has succumbed to the definitions of aelf. What is an hour? What is later? They do not care. Lord help us if we must wait until, "tomorrow".


I'm sure you have a real life to attend to. No rush bud

You guys are only bitter probably because you are bored at work Hey, be glad that you can at least read the forums while you're working!

aelf said:

You guys are only bitter probably because you are bored at work

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i think we're bitter because our impatience reminds us that we've kinda sorta capitulated to S, oh dear! is he going to protect us from the suspense or not?????

Round 8: 605 AD to 1316 AD, Part 1 - Build-up to War

My sincere apologies for the delay. Real life does, periodically and inconveniently, intervene.

During the first part of the round I was mostly concerned with building up towards war with Mansa. Since he now had Longbowmen--several of them, from what I could see--I decided that I would need much better units than I currently had, and that meant researching some key military technologies. I can't recall every trying this before--usually I bee-line to things like Liberalism and Economics for their benefits.

Nevertheless, I couldn't neglect the non-military technologies I was bypassing. So I decided to make this jovial fellow my main tech-trading partner:



Besides being a fellow Buddhist, Bismarck is the lowest on my list of targets. So I reasoned that I could afford to trade some medieval military technologies to him, since by the time I take him on I'll likely have renaissance units or better.

The Great Merchant was sent to London again, to finance research and some unit upgrades:



To ensure I got a steady supply of Great People--especially Great Merchants out of Bibracte, who are proving so useful, nay, essential--I decided I really did want that wonder I was building in Beshbalik and chopped it to completion:



Meanwhile, I kept working on military technologies:





Well, Guilds aren't purely military, they an carry economic benefit (grocers) and one for production as well (+1 hammer from workshops).

I did another lopsided tech trade with Bismarck:



Darn right you should be "Friendly", what with my largess and all!

Helped partly by the Parthenon, Bibracte produced another GM, who also went on a trip to the north:



I think I'm developing a potential rival to the CE and the SE--the GME (Great Merchant Economy)!

In 995 I obtained my next military technology:



By this time I had lined up several units in my cities' build queues in anticipation of a XP-granting civics change. With this technology in hand, that's what I promptly did:



Vassalage would provide the extra XPs while also reducing the maintenance cost of all those new units that would now start to appear. Unfortunately, I did not have Theology, so Theocracy was not available.

A few turns later I felt like I had enough units for a decent city-raiding stack. I also had several units in cities like Beshbalik and Turfan, which I felt were sure to come under some sort of Malinese counter-attack. I had decided, you see, to focus my city raids on the northern Malinese cities, which were obviously the best ones, starting with Kumbi Saleh.

Time to pay the piper, Mansa:



To be continued...

The Parthenon in 695AD!

wow!
that was surely a peaceful round

Round 8: 605 AD to 1316 AD, Part 2 - War with Mansa

Just before declaring war I had generated yet another GM out of Bibracte. (Those of you who called for placing the Colossus and the National Epic deserve kudos, slaps on the back, and a virtual round on me). I sent him towards London yet again and waited until he was safely within relatively-friendly English territory before declaring war.



As my stack moved on Kumbi Saleh, I warded off some rather lame counter-attacks outside my other cities, such as Turfan:



Really, now, Mansa. What did you expect a lone, unprotected Trebuchet to accomplish besides dying ingloriously? The same for that Longbow/Chariot combo you sent at Ning-hsia. Ah well, my Keshiks eventually earned some more promotions, justifying their upgrade to Knights.

This shot will give you an idea of the composition of my stack as the attack on Kumbi Saleh was in progress:



A pretty good mix of protective and attacking units, I think. As the Swordsmen accumulated XPs, I gradually upgraded them to Macemen. However, the real workhorses of medieval era city-raiding in Warlords are the Trebuchets.

And yes, you'll notice that I was researching towards Chemistry even though it will make the Parthenon obsolete. I just couldn't pass up the opportunity to have Grenadiers protecting my stack and newly-acquired cities.



Thanks to the way Ning-hsia's borders could now extend, that gave me access to gems immediately. The battle also spawned my next Great General:



Yes, I decided to make Vienne the Heroic Epic city and settled the GG there for the additional XPs. Vienne is well-situated for this role, being close to Mali and to England, and has very good production which I promptly worked at making better once I decided that it would be the military city. The Workers you see were busy converting Vienne's mostly-immature or even unworked cottages into workshops. Once Vienne's and/or Antium's borders pop, I'll be able to chain-irrigate that rice tile.

In 1166 I finished my next military tech:



No, I didn't trade this one to Bismarck! I still remember being roundly chastised for trading Chemistry for Corporation in a previous game, especially since I was a myriad of turns away from being able to build Wall Street. I resolved to hold the renaissance-era military techs close to my chest.

My stack captured the Malinese capital next. When I looked at Timbuktu's city screen, I experienced a monumental disappointment:



I should have checked and known, but... Mansa failed to build the Buddhist shrine! Sheesh! So now I'm torn. Do I keep trying to generate GMs out of Bibracte, or do I spread all the religions I can there, build temples, run priests, and hope for a GP? Or should I just try to generate a GP elsewhere?

Meanwhile, I kept fending off Mansa's rather lame attempts to invade and pillage my lands:



The garrison in Turfan was seeing a lot of action, though none of it was particularly threatening. Nevertheless, I was glad I had a mix of units there, and in Beshbalik, to counter whatever Mansa threw at me, because there was a pretty steady stream of 1-unit pillagers coming at each city.

In the midst of all this fighting, I nonetheless remembered to start resettling the continent's western territory, starting with Nova Roma... or as the game rather incongruously called it, Old Serai:



And apparently our mystery guest got lonely, researched to Optics, and set out across the pond. Guess who?



Well, I guess it's sort of historically appropriate that he built Chichen Itza, though I don't think he's gotten much use out of it. I did manage to get Optics and Theology from him, though. I promptly upgraded a couple of Triremes to Caravels and set out to explore the world. Amazingly, even though I left it this late and several other civs had Optics on me for several turns, I managed to win the circumnavigation bonus by the end of the round!

(By the way, I have to apologize to those of you who saw the earlier version of the 1st post in this round, which included a screen shot of me trading Gunpowder to Bismarck for Optics; I mistakenly thought I went through with that trade, but I forgot that I had rejected it. Sorry for any confusion!)

My stack, now reinforced with Grenadiers, continued taking Mansa's best cities:



And yes, I produced yet another GM out of Bibracte! I escorted him north through enemy lines with a Knight. I nearly paid a heavy price when a Pikeman attacked and realized that I should have forsaken speed for safety by accompanying them with a Pikeman and a Maceman, but the Knight survived my mistake and the GM made it to London:



Phew! I won't be that cavalier again. In fact, I probably should have loaded him on a Caravel and sent him Monty's way. Duh! Habits can be hard to break. If I get another GM, that's what I'll do with him.

Mansa, by now, was willing to capitulate to me. I, however, had other ideas:



I was now ensuring that I wouldn't have any border problems in the future from Malinese cities. Maybe I'm just greedy.

And after several turns, I finished researching my next, very handy military tech:



Bwa-ha-ha! The world shall tremble before the might of Mongolian cannon!

Well, eventually. I gotta build the thinks first. I now had to change research paths, since there were several non-military techs in the way between where I now stood and Military Tradition and Rifling. Besides, if it wasn't for the steady stream of GMs, my economy and research would be a total wreck! The next tech, therefore, was obvious: Banking.

And then I captured one more Malinese city in my attempt to clean up by back yard of any intrusive foreign culture:



I played a couple more turns, mainly to get my next great person, but that is pretty much where I ended the round, with Mali a hollow shell of its former self and Mansa ready and willing to capitulate. I'll follow this post with one detailing the current state of the world and our key decision points.

cabert said:

wow!
that was surely a peaceful round

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Half-round, one can only hope. He's aelfing again.

Edit: Two minutes too late. I am rock and roll.

Sisiutil said:

I escorted him north through enemy lines with a Knight.
Phew! I won't be that cavalier again.

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Ba-dump, PSHHH!

Sisiutil said:

This shot will give you an idea of the composition of my stack as the attack on Kumbi Saleh was in progress:

A pretty good mix of protective and attacking units, I think.

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Mansa's got trebs, too. I didn't see how overwhelming your numbers were, but if they weren't insane, it helps to split the stack in two. I've never had the AI figure out what to do with its collateral-damage units when there are two stacks sitting outside. (Though it looks like it didn't make much difference.)

My stack captured the Malinese capital next. When I looked at Timbuktu's city screen, I experienced a monumental disappointment:

I should have checked and known, but... Mansa failed to build the Buddhist shrine! Sheesh! So now I'm torn. Do I keep trying to generate GMs out of Bibracte, or do I spread all the religions I can there, build temples, run priests, and hope for a GP? Or should I just try to generate a GP elsewhere?

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My favorite part of this turn (and all variations thereof) is the minimap fireworks as you gain LoS in half the world. How many GP have come out so far? Can you afford to shut down your GME long enough to get a prophet out of Bibracte? Can another city generate enough GPP to compete? (My gut says try for the prophet elsewhere, but my gut sometimes says "no more margaritas" so I only trust it so far.)

And apparently our mystery guest got lonely, researched to Optics, and set out across the pond. Guess who?

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The game has finally revealed to us the best way to neutralize that nutbucket! Isolate him, and he's harmless! (I can't wait to see his boat full of axes show up in 50 or so turns to make some mischief.) Did he run into you before anyone else?

Amazingly, even though I left it this late and several other civs had Optics on me for several turns, I managed to win the circumnavigation bonus by the end of the round!

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Pretty sure the AI doesn't try for circumnavigation, they just launch caravels and wander aimlessly. (Correct me if I am wrong!) So unless they luck out and wander westward consistently, you've got a good chance of catching this bonus even if you're behind by many turns.

Awesome round, Sisiutil. Like usual. And thanks in advance for the F8.

The State of the World, 1316 AD

Let's start by looking at the map. Here's my continent:



And here's Montezuma's, or what I've seen of it so far, which ain't much.



Bismarck is willing to trade me his world map and 160 gold for Banking, and since he's had Optics for several turns more than me, I suspect his map is more slightly complete than mine. What do you think of taking him up on that offer? He's unwilling to throw in a technology, so that probably means he's nearly completed researching Banking on his own. Since he has Education on me, he'll probably beat me to Economics and the free GM--but I'm certainly had my share of GMs in this game, so I can't begrudge him that!

Speaking of offers, here's what Mansa is willing to give up in return for peace:



Scythian, in case you're wondering, is a barbarian city Mansa captured in the middle of my war with him. (I think it's south of Berlin.) Yes, even with the improvements in the patch, the AI still has a misplaced set of priorities! I'm hoping I can persuade Mansa to part with a tech rather than that city, say Drama.

Then again, should accept his capitulation? The way I see it, I have three choices: (a) accept his capitulation now, leaving him with all of his southern coastal cities as well as a couple in the north; (b) finish taking his northern cities (Niani and Walata), leaving him with his southern rump; or (c) finish him off completely.

I'm leaning towards one of the first two options. I have a considerable tech advantage over Churchill right now, so I think the time to hit him is very, very soon; taking Mansa's southern cities will delay war with England long enough for Churchill to research some military technologies, including those that will get him close to Redcoats! So I really don't think wasting time finishing Mansa completely is wise.

However, should I capture those 2 northern Malinese cities or leave them with him? They are pressing a bit on Kumbi Saleh's borders, but not oppressively. Mansa's southern cities, with the exception of the horse/pig city I initially coveted, kind of suck, lessening his worth as a vassal and tech source considerably. And having my vassal's cities closer to my next opponents' cities than my own gives me a convenient buffer. So is option a the best one?

There is, of course, the land % needed for a domination win to consider as well; remember Mansa's land only counts 50% towards my victory. So maybe I should take those 2 northern cities to boost my land ownership? Decisions, decisions...

The Great Library, at long last, managed to produce a Great Scientist in Karakorum:



I should mention at this point that Bismarck beat me to Liberalism. Lightbulbing Philosophy, therefore, seems like a waste. An Academy seems like the best option to me--or should I get Philosophy and Paper from someone else, then use him to help research Education? Well, we'll look at the tech board shortly and work out a strategy there.

Here's the domestic advisor:



So, yes, a mix of military and civilian builds, as you might expect of a rapidly-maturing empire.

Current civics:



I've been running Vassalage since I switched to it just before the war started, and now I'm thinking it's run its course. I don't really need Cannon to have the additional XPs, since they're often suicide units. So I was thinking of switching back to Bureaucracy. Should I also switch to Caste System and Mercantilism to try to produce more Great People, especially since they're starting to become expensive? Lightbulbing Philosophy would enable Pacifism, so that's another thought.

Foreign relations:



Yes, Churchill converted to Confucianism part-way through the round! That makes things interesting. Bismarck may not mind if I declare war on him, and may even join in.

The tech board, first compared to Mansa:



Compared to Bismarck:



Remember that besides Paper, Bizzy obviously has Education and Liberalism on me, and a free tech to boot, though he may have chosen Gunpowder--tough to say at this point.

Techs vis-a-vis Montezuma:



Montezuma will trade Paper and his meagre pile of gold for Guilds. How does that sound?

And Churchill:



Obtaining Philosophy, as you can see, may be tricky--unless I vassalize Mansa. But he as some other technologies that may be more appealing in return for Chemistry and Steel, including some I may not be able to tell if he has yet.

Current trades:



You'll notice I'm researching Astronomy. That seemed to make the most sense, as it will open up trade with Montezuma and allow me to build Frigates and Observatories. It will also probably be good trading fodder. Unless any of you have a better option?

The Victory screen, which several of you suggested after the last round, since we're aiming for a domination victory:



So things are progressing steadily here. As I mentioned above, the key justification for taking the two remaining northern Malinese cities seems to be obtaining more land for the win.

The power graph, which warms the cockles of my heart whenever I look at it:



If you were wondering why Mansa has not capitulated voluntarily to someone else, you now have your answer. I wouldn't want to fight me either.

The Demographics, however, are not nearly so cheery:



My GNP is no longer 4th out of a field of 4, it's 5th out of a field of 5! And Mongolia's proscribed military service isn't exactly doing wonders for everyone's life expectancy. If I stop producing GMs or stop getting war booty, my economy may very will grind to a shuddering, ugly halt. IIRC, I would have to drop the slider to about 30% to break even right now.

So there are several key decisions to make at the start of the next round. I look forward to everyone's input!

Since you took a very different way than mine, I'm still keeping my shadow game where it belongs : in the shadow.
Knowing my own game better than yours, it's a bit difficult to give advice but I'll try anyway:
- capitulating MM seems the right move, taking his money is probably more important than any tech he has. The city he offers is of no value to you. Try to get drama instead.
- From the mini map, it seems too late for settler spamming. Anyway, don't forget to do it if you see free tiles.
- Go straight for England. If you manage to make money steadily you may want to run xp civics and upgrade to CR 2 or 3 grenadiers.
- Your continent is big enough to get domination. let montezuma try to tech all the way to astronomy

What Cabert said.

Yes, take the capitulation right now with Drama and/or Music (or Philosophy if possible!) Great relations, great tech trading, great buffer, great occupation of marginal land. The game won't let him get any tiles in your fat crosses.

Yes, attack Churchhill as soon you're healed up and on his border.

Yes, do the priests thing in Bibracte with temples and a cathedral.

Mercantilism for sure. Caste System, no way! Either OR or Theocracy is good. I wouldn't switch out of Vassalage. Better to exploit your military advantage, and research is not that important now.

Astronomy, nah. Education, nah. Military Tradition is all you need, and only to counter enemy Cavalry, although your Gers will be great, and fun! You should be able to wrap up before Infantry. Even if Bismark got Infantry, you could bury him under a mountain of Cannons.

The only subtle thing is tech trading. It's no big deal if you get no further tech trades, but you might as well do what you can to keep on track to Military Tradition. I think you should make sure that Churchhill (definitely) and Bismark (preferably) don't get anything traded to them. I guess what I'd do is after the capitulation, check on available war and trade embargo deals. I doubt any will be available. In that case, just lightbulb Philosophy and continue to Nationalism. Pick up Drama and Music along the way. Hopefully you can trade with Mansa later, when you're at war with Bismark. I wouldn't be shy about declaring on Bismark early just to keep Mansa from trading with him.

Don't worry about your economy. 30% is more than fine. You are huge and have Banks if you need them. You'll have more city capture money and eventually the shrine. You can use your Mercantilism to run Scientists if you want.

Nationalism is better trading fooder than astronomy. It also enables drafting. Someone do the math if you can conquer the whole continent and just get domination straight off. If so just build insane amounts of units and let the GM keep you afloat. IF so it might be a posibility to stop research at some point though you might want to get nationalism(trade for music) and get military tradition before you get to that point. Astronomy wont realy do anything since your not realy planing on building any observatories(right?) and your not gonna invade mister monty. Hack and slash the fastest way possibly. Bismarch definatly took gunpowder from liberalism as you can see from the tech trading screen. Bismark is obviously building the ankor wat. Which doesnt realy matter one way or another to you. If you think that getting a GP will give you more gold than getting a GM i would go for it. Though remember you do have a limited amount of turns left in the game(i bet you only need this continent to win). So a shrine might not help that overly much. At 20 gold per turn(from the shrine) a GP still need 100 more turns left in the game to be worth it. No reason to take bad land if you dont need it. Though if you do need it your gonna regret it very badly not getting it... As you can see taking over churcil will leave you with 52+% land and assuming Bismarch and 50% of mansa can give you 12% i would say your fine. Just vasalize him and move on before he get those nasty redcoats out there. I dont see how you can call canons suicide units when they are just as good as granadiers.. Giving them 5 exp also makes them able to get accurancy right off the bat. cityrider 2/3 canons are also nothing to sneese at. And they do give colleteral damage. Canons can take down pretty much everything very easy up to infantry as long as they have protection. Watch out the enemy soon have cavalery though so trading away nationalism after you get it might not be best(it is however awesome to trade since the AI rarly if every prioritize it. I would say skip Bureaucracy entierly and just jump right into nationhood. Go take over all the land and hope your cultural trait is enough to cary you to domination once all your guys go on strike...

I love the way that this game has gone, and your power chart is very intimidating. Whats the earliest an ALC has been won? I ask because I think we are on course to beat that.

I wouldn't call cannons suicide units against longbows and muskets. They will rip Chirchill to shreds despite the protectiveness, however, it would certainly be better sooner rather than later where he might get his redcoats.

I'll post another vote here for launching a cannon onlsaught against Churchill. One thing I am not sure of with cannons is do you both giving them CR at all or just go for barrange/accuracy promotions all the way.

With Canons i would most likely give the first or so barrage depending on what your fighting and the rest CRs(if your at positive ods all the way, over 50% with CRII i dont see a reason for not giving them CR all the way).

I'd relieve him of Niani and Walata, just so they don't cause problems for you culturally with the English cities in particular. Then capitulate him...

Sisiutil said:

The State of the World, 1316 AD

Bismarck is willing to trade me his world map and 160 gold for Banking, and since he's had Optics for several turns more than me, I suspect his map is more slightly complete than mine. What do you think of taking him up on that offer? He's unwilling to throw in a technology, so that probably means he's nearly completed researching Banking on his own. Since he has Education on me, he'll probably beat me to Economics and the free GM--but I'm certainly had my share of GMs in this game, so I can't begrudge him that!

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I've noticed that when a Civ offers me their world map in exchange for some cash and a Tech, I can get them to give me the map for another few dozen coins instead of the Tech.

Try offering him 170, 180 or even 200 gold. It's probably worth 200 gold to get his map, but is it really worth Banking to get that map?

Then again, should accept his capitulation? The way I see it, I have three choices: (a) accept his capitulation now, leaving him with all of his southern coastal cities as well as a couple in the north; (b) finish taking his northern cities (Niani and Walata), leaving him with his southern rump; or (c) finish him off completely.

I'm leaning towards one of the first two options. I have a considerable tech advantage over Churchill right now, so I think the time to hit him is very, very soon; taking Mansa's southern cities will delay war with England long enough for Churchill to research some military technologies, including those that will get him close to Redcoats! So I really don't think wasting time finishing Mansa completely is wise.

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I'd take his capitulation. Even with a limited empire, Mansa can still generate good techs and he'll still trade them to you even after you declared war on him. He's still your religion, so he'll like you and may very well give you good trades for the rest of the game. If you trade him Chemistry after the capitulation and then give him 600 or 700 gold (or trade him Chemistry +1000 gold for even more Tech), you can declare war against Bismark and have Mansa joining your side with newly upgraded troops. The fact that the AI gets such a significant discount on upgrading troops is one of the best reasons to take Vassals in my mind. Give them military techs and a decent pot of gold and you'll see outstanding armies fighting along side you.

There is, of course, the land % needed for a domination win to consider as well; remember Mansa's land only counts 50% towards my victory. So maybe I should take those 2 northern cities to boost my land ownership? Decisions, decisions...

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Bah. Who needs land percentage? Mansa's land will count 50% toward your victory and that's better than having to spend extra time on fighting. Every trooper of yours that dies is unavailable to fight Bismark. Every trooper of Mansa's that dies is unavailable to fight Bismark. Take the capitulation and experience the joy of AI advantages coupled with human ingenuity.

I've been running Vassalage since I switched to it just before the war started, and now I'm thinking it's run its course. I don't really need Cannon to have the additional XPs, since they're often suicide units. So I was thinking of switching back to Bureaucracy. Should I also switch to Caste System and Mercantilism to try to produce more Great People, especially since they're starting to become expensive? Lightbulbing Philosophy would enable Pacifism, so that's another thought.

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I'd be willing to bet that you can get that from Mansa. I'd bet that you can get A LOT of tech from Mansa. Wait a couple of turns to switch civics until you've gotten as much as you can from Pointy Stick Research(tm) and from your Chemistry + Cash trade to your new ally and then switch civics to something really worthwhile.

I think that everyone here knows that the game is really over at this point. The only question now is how long will it take to have the victory declared and what goodies can you pick up along the way.