ALC Game 16: Persia/Cyrus

On city location choices: we seem to be making a sow's ear instead of a silk purse. :D

With a beeline to animal husbandry, might a worker first build make some sense? I know the math sometimes favors building something else until pop 2, but, in this case, getting a quick start on pasturage, then (after wheel) getting the royal horse road ready (if nearby) would help get the Irresistible Immortal Invasion hop-hop-hopping along.
 
On city location choices: we seem to be making a sow's ear instead of a silk purse. :D

With a beeline to animal husbandry, might a worker first build make some sense? I know the math sometimes favors building something else until pop 2, but, in this case, getting a quick start on pasturage, then (after wheel) getting the royal horse road ready (if nearby) would help get the Irresistible Immortal Invasion hop-hop-hopping along.

Well if Sis goes for a scout instead of a warrior, the sooner the scout gets out and about the better his chances of getting some goodie-hut payoff.

If he chooses a warrior instead, then you're probably right - worker/warrior/settler may well be faster.
 
Another scout might be nice so you can find and fully scout all of your neighbors before needing open borders.

Generally pillaging copper is job one for the invasion, so either early scouting or open borders is a needed. As I recall, I generally got open borders and then scouted with the first couple of immortals while building the last few. If your strategy doesn't have early writing, then an early scout could be even more helpful.

GS
 
Well, based on the principles of the ALC (showcasing the leader's characteristics), I should build a Scout first to take advantage of the initial Hunting tech. Frankly, it's rare for me to not get a lot of use out of that second Scout.
 
Well, based on the principles of the ALC (showcasing the leader's characteristics), I should build a Scout first to take advantage of the initial Hunting tech. Frankly, it's rare for me to not get a lot of use out of that second Scout.


that's why I love you man- someone else who appreciates a scout and the value of scouting
 
^^I concur, and after your scouts are done, they can stand outside your grocery stores and ask for money.
 
A couple of comments on the early build/research order:

I don't have a problem with starting with a scout. Even though it's somewhat hit or miss as to whether he'll find any huts the extra info re: resource and enemy location is always helpful. While it's true that the second scout might not survive long it's also possible that the first scout will die quickly and in that case having a second already started will be very helpful.

I don't like the idea of scout-worker-settler though. One thing I've noticed is that in 3 of the last 5 ALC games there have been no escort/fogbusting units available when the first settler has finished (Hannibal, Mansa and Mehmed). I'm not sure what Welnic's definition of "nearby" is, but by my definition horses were nearby in the last game and I don't think you would want to move the initial settler that far without escort.

The other advantage of building some escort warriors inbetween the worker and the settler is that it gives the city time to grow. If you grow the city to size 4 you can whip 2 citizens to finish the settler, and since those hammers would get the Imperialistic bonus that means the settler would only need to build for a couple of turns before it could be whipped.

Specifically what I would do is build the scout while working a grassland forest (switch to plains forest if one is available), then start on a warrior until the city reaches size 2 (working the highest food available), then switch to a worker, then finish the warrior and build 2 more, starting on the settler when the city grows to size 4, finish by whipping it as soon as I can. I'd try to position the warriors to fogbust the path to the horse city so the settler can move there at full speed.

As to research I would go Mining->AH->BW->Wheel.

The only real advantage of going for Mining first is that it opens up the possibility of getting BW from a hut. But since you're going to finish both Mining and AH before your worker can be built and finish the corn farm it doesn't seem like you lose anything with this approach.

I think BW has to come next since I don't think you can finish the Wheel and BW before you'll need to whip the settler. Also one other point in favor of BW is that you can't mine hills that have forests on them. One of the hills already has a forest and the other 2 are adjacent to forests. You'll need the Wheel for the UU and almost certainly to hook up the resources and connect the cities (it doesn't look like you're going to get a lot of help from rivers :( ). But this doesn't need to happen as soon as whipping/chopping.
 
Well, based on the principles of the ALC (showcasing the leader's characteristics), I should build a Scout first to take advantage of the initial Hunting tech. Frankly, it's rare for me to not get a lot of use out of that second Scout.

So what tech you intend to pop this time ?

Astronomy ?

;)
 
I like the Mining > AH > Wheel > BW tech path. Mining so that BW is possible from a hut and that we can mine that plains hill sooner. AH so we can see where the horses are. Wheel for roads and immortals. BW for slavery and chopping. Probably better to see where the horses are early so we can plan for it.

For the unit tech path, Scout > Worker > Settler. Scout so we can grow to size 2 before worker and start goodie hut hunting. Worker to get the food online and perhaps a mine depending on whether horses are nearby.
 
Nope, that's part of why when in doubt the starting spot is usually the safest route, because it's guaranteed to never be the spot where a resource pops

That can't be true, that's happened to me in 3 of my last 10 or so games. Once I got copper, another time iron, another time horses right on the starting spot. I'm playing Warlords 2.08, mac version.
 
That can't be true, that's happened to me in 3 of my last 10 or so games. Once I got copper, another time iron, another time horses right on the starting spot. I'm playing Warlords 2.08, mac version.

Yeah I've discovered I was wrong, I'll go back and edit that post to save further confusion, my current theory is that it was true in Vanilla but isn't anymore (since I haven't had Warlords very long it would be realistic that I've just never seen it happen).
 
I agree that tech order should be AH, Wheel, Mining, BW to start.

As for builds, I'd take advantage of the early Scouts and build one. Then a Worker, then a Warrior, then a Settler. The Warrior can fogbust and defend against most animals. If you are lucky enough to have Horses in your capital's BFC, then you can strat cranking out Immortals for fogbusting and defending cities as needed.
 
Round 2: 3970 BC to 3100 BC

After the last game, I don't want to go too far without getting some good advice. Hence the short rounds thus far.

I started off by founding the Persian capital in the recommended and agreed-upon spot:

ALC16_3100BC_01.jpg


Ooo look! Another hut! No more resources, though. Oh well, maybe they're hidden. Keep your fingers crossed.

The first build was a Scout, the first tech to research was Animal Husbandry:

ALC16_3100BC_02.jpg


With that accomplished, it was clearly time for the Scout to go a-hut poppin'. I sent him north first:

ALC16_3100BC_03.jpg


97 gold. Nice! Some people don't like getting gold from huts, evidently preferring free techs. They're nuts. Gold from a hut = a free tech, possibly more than one, and of your own choosing, because the gold lets you run the early science slider at 100% for a longer period of time. And it certainly beats the heck out of barbs. But of course, Scouts can't pop barbs from huts, another reason I like them so much.

The Scout then headed south, making a detour into uncharted territory along the way, and turning up something interesting:

ALC16_3100BC_04.jpg


Gold, and right beside a river to boot! Very handy. I was keeping my fingers crossed, hoping for horses to appear in the fat cross, or, failing that, near the gold.

I next had the Scout pop the hut that you see to the east in the above screenshot. I could have let the capital's first border pop claim it, but I was heading in that direction anyway and decided not to risk letting a rival appear and claim it before me.

It popped for a map:


ALC16_3100BC_05.jpg


Maps are probably my 2nd least favourite hut result, second only to barbs, especially when they reveal a lot of water tiles. However, I try to look on the bright side: it might save my explorers a turn or two of exploration, or reveal defensive tiles where they can head for protection from barbs. Yeah, I'm a glass-is-half-full kinda guy.

The above map does reveal a good location for the gold city: 2 west of the wheat, claiming the gold, crabs, and wheat and is coastal as well. It misses out on the wine and the flood plain, but you can't have everything. Of course, we'll be getting into a dotmap discussion after this round, so we can kick that idea around some more.

The Scout headed east, close to home, to pop that tile SE of the capital and to explore the east coast. The hut contributed more gold to the coffers in Persepolis:

ALC16_3100BC_06.jpg


I'm building up quite a nice little nest egg there, thanks to all those generous (and surprisingly wealthy) tribesmen.

And yes, Virginia, there is seafood on the east coast:

ALC16_3100BC_07.jpg


So a later city will likely be founded at some point 1 south of the Scout's position in that screen shot, something that would not have been possible if I'd taken the starting position. Oh, I would have eventually been able to work the crabs, but not feed a city with them, which would have been a shame. Sometimes it pays to move around.

The Scout then did an about-face and headed west. Due west of my position, he found my first victim... er, neighbour:

ALC16_3100BC_08.jpg


The Mighty Qin! Well, not really all that mighty if I wipe him out before he gets to Machinery and those nasty Cho-Ko-Nus, which, given his proximity, is his likely fate. All I need is some horses...

ALC16_3100BC_09.jpg


So where might the ponies be? My second Scout found them a little ways to the north, along with another wealthy tribal village:

ALC16_3100BC_10.jpg


You'll get a better idea as to the horse's exact location and surroundings shortly. No horses in the fat cross nor near the gold, unfortunately. That meant the next tech to research was definitely The Wheel. I was also, at this point, building a Worker in the capital, which had grown to pop 2.

As the Scout continued to the north, he found jungle, including dye and gems, and another rival, this one decidedly more formidable than his Oriental counterpart:

ALC16_3100BC_11.jpg


I finished researching the next tech:

ALC16_3100BC_12.jpg


Which enables the Immortals, not to mention the means to access their rides. I decided to research Mining next, followed by Bronze Working, I should imagine. I'm hoping now for copper within the capital's rather sparsely-resourced fat cross.

Meanwhile, my western Scout recovered from a lion attack, then, against all probability, found another hut northeast of Beijing:

ALC16_3100BC_13.jpg


Validator, evidently the RNG was listening to you. I now have a unit to fog-bust and protect my Worker and Settler on their way to those horses! Usually I'm not enthused about popping a Warrior, but this time it's decidedly convenient, especially given the location.

In addition, the fact that Qin missed this hut, along with the fact that I haven't seen any of his units near my territory, leads me to believe that there's a whole lotta land to his west and/or north and that's where his units have gone exploring. So obviously the Scout will skirt around Beijing and head in that direction next.

That is where I decided to end the round. Here's a look at the capital:

ALC16_3100BC_15.jpg


I think the Worker ought to first farm the corn, then build a road heading north to the horses, protected by my hut-popped Warrior.

And, more importantly, here's a look at the map as revealed thus far:

ALC16_3100BC_14.jpg


So horses in two locations, one of them out of the question at the moment, since they'll be claimed shortly by Beijing's third border pop. One spot for a horse city is on that desert tile 2 south of the northern horses, the only immediately acceptable source of them. Of course it has problems, not the least of which is the fact that a border pop will be required to claim the horses, and it has four peaks in the fat cross--ugh. But it will claim the sheep and silk in addition to the horses and keep Genghis from heading further south.

The other possibility is 1 north of the horses, which would claim the ponies immediately as well as the corn and marble and also choke off Genghis. It only has 2 peaks in the fat cross as opposed to 4. It's further away, however, increasing its maintenance cost, and a little more dangerous to reach what with more tiles outside my cultural borders for a long time. It leaves space for a rather awkward city 1 south of the desert tile to claim both the silk and sheep, I suppose, and the northwest fish would have to somehow be claimed by another city on that still-darkened northwest coast opposite.

Another possibility is for the horse city to go 1 south of the wheat, claiming the corn and the fish, though this has the border-pop problem and is even further away from the capital than the other two possibilities I've mentioned.

I still think a third city 2 west of the southern wheat makes sense to claim the wheat, gold, and crabs. Qin may beat me there, but that's no biggie; I'll just use the hammers for Immortals instead of a Settler and wrest the city from his cold, dead hands. As I mentioned before, a later city on the southeast coast to work the other crab tile is a likely possibility. But of course, I look forward to everyone's dot maps.
 
1W of the Horses. Monument, Barracks, and you're off. Two-city rush.
 
one N of the horses gets you marble for the GL (or another wonder if you plan on build any) and after the third border pop you will have a pennisula all to yourself to settle without the threat of opponent settlers (until boats) so my vote is for 1N of the ponies
 
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