ALC Game 16: Persia/Cyrus

Given GK being Please with HC it might be difficult to pull off, but have you looked into bribing him to attack HC?

I assume that it would be impossible in this case, but on a couple of occasions, I've bribed civA to attack civB, and after giving civA a couple turns to move their military into position on civB, I then attack civA; the mutual struggle bonus offsetting the hit for paying for them to be attacked. (civA==HC, civB==GK)
 
S: you run into money problems, and you mention pointy stick research. that is one way to get some. but if your pals have money, you can often get it from them without selling techs, worth a shot. if they're at pleased or friendly, you can ask them to spare something for a friend. they'll say yes or no, but there's no diplomatic modifier either way, and quite often they'll say yes. which is spiffy. credit where it's due, i often forgot to try this until i played an SG with cabert. now i do it a lot, cabert has made me rich!

glass-half-full note for you: isabella will like you more hate you less when you change to Theocracy, if she's in it that is. *giggle*.

Noobie question--assuming you're going to beeline for Military Tradition-->Cavalry, is it more or less or equally expensive to have upgraded the Immortals to Knights (and then, hypothetically, to Cavalry) rather than straight from Immortals to Cavalry? Don't think I've ever had the luxury of doing this--thus the question.

it's always cheaper to just do one upgrade to the final thing you want it to be. the formula for the cost is based on X gold per the difference in hammer cost between old and new, plus an additional flat upfront fee you pay every time. so if you upgrade twice, you pay that amount twice. but sometimes you have to, since somebody wants to, like, kill you or something.

i think the flat part is 25g or so, might depend on game speed? i'm cheap so i try to pinch pennies. see above about begging money from friends. oh, and i'm careful to ask for their money *before* i get the negative modifier for DoWg on their friend *giggle*.
 
^^thanks for the credit Kmad :).

Could you spare something for a friend?
I'm sure you have 200$ you don't need :lol:.

To sisiutil : I have the feeling that playing this game "slower" (= more time between updates) is leading to less focus = not so good playing.
gifting engineering to GK is not a mistake in your situation because you weren't ready for a war with him, OK. But why weren't you ready for a war with him? you know the guy! He's Monty's horsed twin.
I hope your "switch to theocracy, get loads of highly promoted units" trick will include enough macemen and trebuchets, because knights will have defensive value only.
 
Yes, but like Monty you CAN put a collar on him if you work on diplomatic relations from day 1, starting on gifting alphabet and going from there. And in this situation, that should've been done imho.

Once HC was wiped off the map and Genghis had developed all those jungle tiles, then it would be easy to backstab him (he techs slowly) during the early renaissance era (cavalry) and take him out. Issy with her poor land can be taken out whenever.
 
To sisiutil : I have the feeling that playing this game "slower" (= more time between updates) is leading to less focus = not so good playing.
gifting engineering to GK is not a mistake in your situation because you weren't ready for a war with him, OK. But why weren't you ready for a war with him? you know the guy! He's Monty's horsed twin.
I hope your "switch to theocracy, get loads of highly promoted units" trick will include enough macemen and trebuchets, because knights will have defensive value only.

Precisely! :agree:
I feel the situation would be much better if efforts after the 1st war with Qin were focused on researching and poducing apropriate city taking units, along with a bit of economic development so that newly conquored cities could be easily afforded.

futurehermit said:
Yes, but like Monty you CAN put a collar on him if you work on diplomatic relations from day 1, starting on gifting alphabet and going from there. And in this situation, that should've been done imho.

Investing in friendship with your imidiate neighbors rather than distant ones is always good, even if just to keep em comfy and catch em unprepared in your next planned war. Still every game poses its own practical restriction to such strategies -religionresouces in shortage etc.
But, very militaristic leaders like HC or Monty tend to build a large army and research accordingly nomatter what, and come seeking a weak target to use them on... So one may benefit more from maintaining a higher military/power rating -so they choose someone else first-, or if needed be force-bribe them in such a war, while you go ahead with yours.
 
I tend to attack my immediate neighbours :D

I try to befriend ones that are far enough away from me I can't attack them, but they are close enough to my enemies (i.e., neighbours) that I can bribe my allies to help me in war.

With Monty you have two options: 1) Take him out, if he is close enough; or 2) befriend him and send him after someone else. Otherwise, he will come at you. I swear Monty is programmed to only attack the human player :lol: I've had him come all the way across the map to attack me, even when pleased, even though he is annoyed at AI civs close to him :lol:
 
^^thanks for the credit Kmad :).

Could you spare something for a friend?
I'm sure you have 200$ you don't need :lol:.

i would, but ... *checks the exchange rate* ... unfortunately, you live overseas and that ends up being more than my current budget allows.
"You press us too hard."

I swear Monty is programmed to only attack the human player :lol: I've had him come all the way across the map to attack me, even when pleased, even though he is annoyed at AI civs close to him :lol:

my favorite was when two of his axemen were trapped by closed borders when people founded new cities. he declared war on me the very next turn, even tho he was annoyed and had closed borders with all three people he was now trapped between. he hadn't even had EOOH when i'd last checked *giggle*. his axemen died of course. i built a bit of an army but knew i couldn't reach him since i didn't have OB with 3 people in between us. i waited around ... waited some more ... waited some more ... he never sent anybody else. i could see two of his cities by holy vision, and he was definitely making troops and moving them around, but a lot of the map was dark to me.

i finally realized that the black-to-me part of the map worked out so that he couldn't reach me from his cities eithers; his closed borders with just 2 of the 3 people i had closed borders with must have been enough to seal off the entire pathway. those trapped troops were all he ever sent. what a nutcase *giggle*. he ended up paying me for peace since i am of course such a fearsome early warmonger. or maybe because i asked nicely.

i guess he didn't want to go to all the trouble of also declaring war on the people he'd have to travel through on the way to reach me. fits with fh's theory, they weren't the human :lol:!

end of my sidetracking for now.
 
Bump.

This thread actually slipped to page 2.:eek:

Maybe Sisiutil went back to his home planet.:p
 
knock knock knock, SISUTIL is anyone home, you havent posted in this thread for almost a week, yet you have been on since then. grrrr, RL gets in the way of my entertainment
 
Yeah, sorry about that, RL does indeed get in the way. I had to write a Microsoft exam last week (passed, yay me), got very busy at work, and the wife got me into a show she has on DVD (curse her) (j/k, honey!), so...

I somehow found time in there to play the next round. I'll try to post the write-up ASAP.
 
in reference to genghis demanding engineering (where i would have given it to him, like you did)...

"Then again, it's been my experience that the AI generally asks for free techs as tribute or gifts when they've already researched most of it themselves. So I'm going to assume I only saved Genghis a few turns rather than several. Y'know, just so I can feel better about it."

i've had a chance to watch this in a game of my own. tonight's evidence seems to point to "looks like it, but maybe not at the time they're asking, which is weird." spoilered simply to save space, the facts are not about this game.

Spoiler :
i've seen other people think this is the case too, not just S. tonight's evidence is weird. i've been taking notes since it's an event game so i actually have dates too. i haven't checked every leader's research every single turn, i only have so many spies so they make the rounds of course. but i'm interested in their pace (particularly since this game is on prince which so completely throws me off, i do not know how to judge how slow they'll be on prince and i do not play well since they don't play well *giggle*) so i put that stuff in my notes too sometimes. anyway...

7 civs, three of us know democracy. HC came by eleven turns ago demanding democracy from me, i guess he's jealous since he's not one of the lucky three. i had just done a check on him, he was not even trying to learn it himself, he was working on assembly line. he had been constantly annoyed with me. i told him no, if you want to learn it so bad, crack open a book yourself, since i'd never seen him trying to research it himself (altho again, i didn't check them all every turn). then he finished assembly line, and then the next turn of course i couldn't see anything on his research bar since they don't make up their mind until the following turn.

it's now 11 turns after his demand, and the first turn following the assembly line discovery that i'm able to see what he's decided to learn next. and this is what my spy sees:

HCdemocracy.jpg


he's getting a discount since 3 of the 6 civs that he's in contact with already know the tech. but obviously with that sloooooooooow tech pace you can see from the non-filled-in green part (he's at war and being pillaged), it would take him longer than 6 turns to learn if he'd started from scratch *giggle*. so i guess he must have started it some time ago, and then delayed it for military techs and is now backtracking to it.

so when he asked, my "you're not even studying it, dork" reasoning was technically correct in the letter of the law, but apparently it wasn't complete, i didn't know he had started research on it. but it sure looks like he had, doesn't it? or he lightbulbed part of it, i thought of that but there aren't any recent GPs for HC in the event log. back when he asked, he wasn't at war, and hadn't been pillaged, so his research time would have been faster come to think of it.

so this makes it look like there is something to that theory, but it's not always a situation of "he's almost done with it right now and he's gonna have it within a few turns whether i turn him down or not." i don't know quite what's going on there.

edit: OMG i love that show! one of my best friends i met in an online game because his name was Rayge and i asked him if he got the name from QaF. he did, instant friends <3.
 
I somehow found time in there to play the next round. I'll try to post the write-up ASAP.

Yay!

Reading the ALCs have improved my gameplay by magnitudes - but having just recently jumped into this game, it's hard actually having to *wait* for the ALCs to update instead of just reading the next one.
 
Yes, glad to know the next round has been played. I got so bored I started my own thread game. I'll probably crash and burn, but at least it will be painfully fun to watch.:D
 
Janus0 maybe, but ... "or he lightbulbed part of it, i thought of that but there aren't any recent GPs for HC in the event log." and again, it wasn't a spoiler game, it didn't start with S's file at all, it's Prince level/different map/different everything ;). it's just that i so rarely have a chance to see that in action so i shared it. that, and i have to always be typing something.
 
Round 9 (at last!): to 1472 AD

I'm baaaaaaaaaaaack...

I started this round off by taking a gamble that I could finish researching Gunpowder and Liberalism before Huayna. So I switched research targets to Gunpowder. The prize I was after was Chemistry, free from Liberalism, for Grenadiers.

Now you may remember (cast your mind back) that I had been building up several units in all my cities' build queues in anticipation of changing to the war civics, Vassalage and Theocracy. I did this on the first round:


ALC16_1472ADa_01.jpg


After that, I started pumping out units like there was no tomorrow. Even when all the pre-built ones came out, I still kept building units. I didn't stop until after I finished researching Gunpowder and had produced a couple of 7 XP Musketmen. This helped my power rating tremendously:

ALC16_1472ADa_02.jpg


Just before declaring war, I checked what the other civs had to offer. Huayna had been a busy boy and had finished researching Education. On the positive side, this meant that I could trade it, even to my erstwhile target:

ALC16_1472ADa_03.jpg


Huayna was much less co-operative. Despite being "Friendly", he wouldn't cough up any free gold all round long.

ALC16_1472ADa_04.jpg


A little while later, however, I at least managed to trade Music to him for Drama and most of the gold he refused to give me here.

With my army built and in position on Mongolia's doorstep, it was finally time for some action:

ALC16_1472ADa_05.jpg


Huayna had declared war on Isabella (again) by this point, so he was busy elsewhere, allowing me to shift almost every unit I had to the northeast. The screenshot below will give you an idea as to the composition of my stack, and the opposition I was facing:

ALC16_1472ADa_06.jpg


Despite the presence of 5 Accuracy Catapults, taking a city usually took 2 turns. Genghis had built walls in all his cities, so I had to use the Trebuchets to remove the city defenses as well, then wait until the next turn to use them in direct city attacks.

In addition to the city attacking stack above, I also piled a mix of Knights, Pikemen, and Catapults into Goth. This was the counter-counter-attack force. Once I captured Tiflis...

ALC16_1472ADa_07.jpg


...I began taking Mongolian cities by moving the stack clockwise around the map. This allowed me to move my counter-counter forces into Tiflis and Old Serai to ward off Genghis' counter-attacks. The Catapults were essential; Genghis sent stacks of War Elephants, Knights, and Catapults against me; Knights or Pikemen alone would have gotten creamed.

Huayna was, as expected, beginning to run away from me in the research department. Despite my city captures I ran out of gold and endured a single turn in a strike; I acted quickly, shifting citizens and specialists around, and avoided losing any units. Still, I was floundering a little, so I felt obliged to make a tech trade with the only guy still talking to me:

ALC16_1472ADa_08.jpg


This allowed me to switch economic civics to Mercantilism for the free specialist. Since neither Isabella nor Genghis were talking to me, and Huayna was running Mercantilism himself, the loss of the foreign trade routes barely registered.

Imperialistic started kicking in again. I earned my next (cheap) Great General a few turns into the war:

ALC16_1472ADa_09.jpg


I used him and the next GG as military instructors in Beijing, the Heroic Epic city. This is an idea I came across on the board--it gives you the equivalent of West Point in your military city, often long before that national wonder is available. It also means that you don't have to stop producing units in the HE city in order to build West Point, which instead gets built in your second military city.

In 1280, I got some bad news: Huayna beat me to Liberalism and took as his free tech the same one I was after, Chemistry:

ALC16_1472ADa_10.jpg


Well, so much for that. Probably if I was more effective at running a specialist economy I could have pulled it off. I kept researching Liberalism since I was so close anyway.

As it was, I soon got two Great Scientists, both of whom I used for lightbulbing. The first helped finish Printing Press, and the next one lightbulbed... Chemistry! So in a way, I got the tech nearly free anyway.

The other civs weren't sitting on their laurels. The two remaining mystery leaders finally showed up:

ALC16_1472ADa_11.jpg


ALC16_1472ADa_12.jpg


Notice how Frederick doesn't have Optics on me? Strange, no? This meant his continent must have been relatively close by. A few turns later I was able to trade world maps with Frederick (among other things--such as Optics and some gold for Philosophy). I found out that this theoretical proximity of the continents was indeed the case:

ALC16_1472ADa_14.jpg


It looks like a combination of German and Spanish border pops allowed Frederick to reach my shores without Caravels. At any rate, both he and Ragnar are far behind and unlikely to be competitive in the game.

While all this was going on, my stack continued its clockwise run around Mongolia. (I guess I should also mention that in addition to capturing several cities, I also founded one--Tarsus, on the southeast coast, to work the crabs and iron.) By taking the Mongolian capital, I captured a very handy wonder, since war weariness was beginning to take a huge toll on my cities:
ALC16_1472ADa_13.jpg


The +1 happy from Notre Dame was very welcome indeed. Other good news included Isabella finally beginning to talk with me again. I traded an old tech (Paper) to her for a few shekels, and began trading iron to her again as well. I really think the AI needs to be improved in this regard; by having no access to metals, Isabella was hurting herself more than me by not trading a few GPT for iron. I can understand suspending diplomatic relations, but come on, if there's an advantage to be gained, history has shown that most nations are willing to dance with the devil.

I pushed a few units to the last Mongolian city, ahead of the main stack, in order to end the war and restore the economy to normalcy as soon as possible. in 1466, it was finally all over for Genghis in this game:

ALC16_1472ADa_15.jpg


I know the research rate above looks dismal, but I played another turn or two so that the next post--showing the current state of the world--would more accurately reflect my civ's capabilities.

Stay tuned!
 
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