ALC Game 16: Persia/Cyrus

Huayna teched next not to Rifling, nor to Military Tradition

I noticed from your diplomacy screen picture that you do not have Nationalism. Is that correct? If so, you wouldn't know whether or not Huayna has Military Tradition unless Cavalry showed up on your doorstep. You can't research, so you don't get told if anyone else has it.
 
A possible drawback to capitulation is that it is possible that Huayna would put a settler on a galleon and settle a new city somewhere on the coast of the former Incan empire before your borders can expand to block all city sites. With the way culture works this new Incan city would immediately get control of the nearby tiles, and there would be nothing you could do about it. It looks like you're going to need just about all of the tiles on the continent to reach the domination limit, so losing some to a vassalized Huayna could force you into a naval invasion. :(

That's not a problem. Remember that it takes ~40-50 turns to build a settler in that lonely island without resources. And HC will definetely build something else before that happens.
 
CivSetä;5609616 said:
That's not a problem. Remember that it takes ~40-50 turns to build a settler in that lonely island without resources. And HC will definetely build something else before that happens.

Also, if Huayna would be completely removed from the map with the exception of that one city on the island remaining, settling a new city on the former Incan continent would force him out of the vassal system wouldn't it? Because he doubled his ground and all that. Anyway, that's still is all far away.
 
Also, if Huayna would be completely removed from the map with the exception of that one city on the island remaining, settling a new city on the former Incan continent would force him out of the vassal system wouldn't it? Because he doubled his ground and all that. Anyway, that's still is all far away.
the bolded part is completely wrong
IF (don't sell the fur before killing the bear) Sisiutil vassalizes HC, HC needs either :
- to be reduced to half his land
or
- to have more than 50% of Sisiutil's land and population.

If he only has one city left, being reduced means he is dead. I had a vassal that broke free of me this way:mischief: (RIP mansa musa).
If he wants to have more than 50% of Sisiutil's land, he'll need to settle a bit more than 1 city.
 
It's also worth noting that sometimes when you :hammer: a civ really hard and they're down to 1 city, they won't vassalize to you.
 
the bolded part is completely wrong
IF (don't sell the fur before killing the bear) Sisiutil vassalizes HC, HC needs either :
- to be reduced to half his land
or
- to have more than 50% of Sisiutil's land and population.

If he only has one city left, being reduced means he is dead. I had a vassal that broke free of me this way:mischief: (RIP mansa musa).
If he wants to have more than 50% of Sisiutil's land, he'll need to settle a bit more than 1 city.

Damn, you are right. I was completely wrong, I never had it happen to me before, so I only vaguely remembered the rules. :crazyeye:
I will continue to cheer on Sisiutil army from from a distance then.:blush:
 
Doesn't vassalizing give you LOS to the vassal's land and cities? I'm still on Vanilla and waiting for BTS so I'm not too sure. If so, you could prevent his expansion. And also, how many seafood tiles does this city have? I've played games where capitals were on peninsulas surrounded by 8 seafood tiles, like

S S S
S C S
S L S

where L is land and C is city and S is seafood. I'm only asking this because food is a factor in settler/worker production.
 
Damn, you are right. I was completely wrong, I never had it happen to me before, so I only vaguely remembered the rules. :crazyeye:
I will continue to cheer on Sisiutil army from from a distance then.:blush:

I didn't want to throw you a bucket of cold water.
I just didn't want wrong information left unchecked.
I'm pretty sure every bit of discussion is welcome, don't be afraid.
 
Another (albeit minor) annoyance: Huayna built a city on a single-tile island to my east. Which means in order to finish him off, I'll have to research Astronomy myself (no one else besides Huayna has it), build a couple of Galleons, and go get him. It might be easier to vassalize him at that point, especially if WW is getting problematic. Thoughts?
Bah. Let him have his Elba. You're going for Domination, not Conquest. :p

Astronomy, eh? Well, that's a nice tech you can extort out of him for peace! Incidentally, I was just about to inquire as to the state of your navy -- not so good at this point, I imagine. :lol: Oh, well. If the AI were smarter I'd be concerned about him landing an invasion stack well behind enemy lines...but I wouldn't be too concerned about that...

Good to see you're pressing forward...can't wait for the next update!!
 
I didn't want to throw you a bucket of cold water.
I just didn't want wrong information left unchecked.
I'm pretty sure every bit of discussion is welcome, don't be afraid.

I was just kidding. Of course I don't mind. :D

I'm really interesting in how this games will end. Throughout these ALC threads I have learned so much by just reading along. And still every time I check in I am amazed how much depth the strategy discussion has. :goodjob:
 
Hey sneaky please feel free to keep commenting and putting forth ideas. I've learned a bunch here by expressing what I thought was gospel and having myself proved quite wrong. Great way to float ideas, and you never know if one may develop into a great new strategy. This is basically 'brainstorming' in my mind, so spout away.

With regard to the game, HC building anywhere other than the main continent is just a distraction. Yes, once he's cleared from the home turf go ahead an vassal him. The choices at that time would be to invade the island, make peace without vassal, or vassal. If you found that you had to go "off continent" to get enough for a domination, then better to take Izzy's island and/or make inroads into Vikingland or Germany. So at least with the Vassal deal you get some happiness out of the bargain (oh, and half the land toward the domination, perhaps a fraction of a percent, but what the hey).

Is there a danger that he might vassalize to the Vikes or Germans? I guess even if he does, who cares - you won't be invaded by anything from them anyway.
 
If you pick up all the continent then it doesn't really matter a jot (self-censorship in action) if HC has one, two or ten cities on little islands as long as you've reached the domination limit.

If you haven't got enough land with the one continent then you're committed to overseas invasion (or a different victory condition).
 
Okay, I finished the round last night, but it was quite late when I got done. I'll post the update tonight.

Is there a danger that he might vassalize to the Vikes or Germans? I guess even if he does, who cares - you won't be invaded by anything from them anyway.

Unlikely. If Civ A accepts Civ B as a vassal, and you're at war with Civ B, one of three things happen:
  • If Civ A was at peace with both you and Civ B, Civ A is now at war with you.
  • If Civ A was at war with Civ B but at peace (i.e. allied) with you, you are now at peace with Civs A and B.
  • If Civ A was at war with you (i.e. allied with Civ B), nothing changes.
So in order for another civ (only Isabella or Ragnar would be eligible at this point; Germany is Ragnar's vassal) to accept Huayna as a vassal, they'd have to be willing to go to war with me. Since I'm the meanest, biggest kid on the block in this game, and Huayna is the only one remotely able to challenge me, that's pretty darn unlikely.
 
Round 11: 1553 AD to 1709 AD - Part 1

Keep up the pressure, all of you urged, so I did. I moved my stack to Vilas and attacked it next:



As you can see, I also kept researching Replaceable Parts with Rifling in mind as the next target tech. I originally planned to also get Nationalism, switch civics, and draft Riflemen, but things didn't work out that way, as you'll see.

I also thought it made sense to have a fire sale on some of my old techs, especially to erstwhile allies who would be dead by my hand before long:



And then, as luck would have it, Ragnar finished researching Nationalism! It didn't come cheap, but I got it from him:



Whatever its other failings, the AI is quite capable of driving a hard bargain. A pity he didn't have more gold, or another, cheaper tech to throw in there. I actually kind of hoped that with Printing Press, the Financial Viking would have more money to throw around. I did get a little over 100 "spare this for a good friend" gold from him later on, so I guess it helped. I certainly didn't want to make his life easier by giving him a military tech like Chemistry, though!

I spawned my next Great Person, a GS in Persepolis, and used him to lightbulb most of Scientific Method:



Meanwhile, the campaign continued, with a slight diversion from the plan I'd posted previously. The next city I took was Murcia on the south coast:



I also kept it, despite Cabert's recommendation to raze it. Why did I prioritize this city? Check out the resources: silver and whales. 2-4 additional happiness in every city, depending upon buildings. War weariness was not unmanageable at this point, but it soon could be, so having these resources helped.

My stack then turned its attention north, heading for one of the key Incan cities we had discussed as a primary target:



Machu Picchu held a nice prize, too--a wonder:



Okay, the Sistine Chapel isn't exactly going to be a cornerstone of my victory in this game, but I never scoff at a wonder I get for "free".

All this fighting (and the Imperialistic trait) spawned my next Great General. I decided to have some fun with him, and combined him with my best city raider as a Warlord:



I gave the CR III Grenadier Leadership and Combat I (and II, I think). Leadership is a fun promotion for a unit like this, especially with the Charismatic trait's cheap promotions. He'll accumulate promotions quickly as a result. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Imperialistic also multiply the extra XP's earned from Leadership? If so, there's a definite synergy there between the two traits that would argue in favour of creating a Leadership-promoted unit much earlier in the game to rack up more Great Generals even faster.

Around this time, Huayna apparently got tired of fighting a two-front war and made peace with the comely religious fanatic:



Notice that Isabella did not become a vassal. It meant I could focus on Huayna. Unfortunately, it also meant he could focus on me; after this, his counter-attacks increased in frequency. I managed to hold him off, though.

Despite the wars, Huayna still managed to find the hammers to build a wonder:



That's actually a pretty good spot for Versailles--for me. I looked forward to taking it off his hands.

As I shared in a post above, Huayna, strangely, researched Astronomy rather than a more immediately useful tech like Rifling or Military Tradition. Since he had Chemistry, this gave him access to a more advanced military unit...



As I mentioned in a previous post, I could only defend my seafood tiles with Caravels at this point, so I was resigned to having them pillaged and losing some population in my coastal cities as a result. (That high production rate I had was supported by all that seafood allowing my coastal city citizens to work more hammer-rich tiles.)

Undaunted by the Frigates, I kept pressing Huayna, next depriving him of his sole source of horses.



And just as Huayna's Frigates were approaching my closest seafood tile, Freddy came to my rescue:



Again, the tech did not come cheap, but it allowed me to quickly upgrade a couple of Caravels to Frigates and build more of the latter. Rather than attacking my better-protected seafood tiles, Huayna used a Galleon to drop off a meagre little stack outside of Ecbatana (the city built right on top of the ivory). They did a little pillaging before they were wiped out--not a big problem.

In 1646, two important things happened. First, I finished researching my next military tech. I had actually delayed Rifling a little bit by lowering the research slider. My think was (a) I could afford to delay it a turn or two; (b) it allowed me to spawn more Macemen out of Beijing with CR II; and (c) it gave me a little more gold for upgrades.



And even though Ragnar and Huayna had both finished researching Nationalism before me, I nevertheless managed to build the Taj Majal in the former Mongolian capital of Karakorum--starting a very welcome golden age!



The irony of this combination of events, however, was that with a GA underway and Cyrus lacking the Spiritual trait, I couldn't revolt into Nationalism to draft Rifles. I had to build them all from scratch instead! Fortunately, with my already-high production levels boosted by the GA, the Riflemen started appearing pretty quickly, and with full XPs from the barracks.

I researched Military Tradition next, thinking Cavalry might prove useful.

To be continued...
 
Round 11: 1553 AD to 1709 AD - Part 2

With the Golden Age going on, the war continued. My primary stack now started doing a U-turn while I built up a second stack in Ollantaytambo.



A few turns later, the second stack captured its first city--Cuzco, the Incan capital, which was surprisingly poorly defended.



Further north, Huamanga fell next:



This city also held a couple of prizes:



Versailles and the Hagia Sophia. Not bad.

Just as the Golden Age drew to a close, I finished researching my next tech:



Ragnar had actually beaten me to MT several turns earlier, but he stubbornly refused to trade it. I then started researching Constitution. My thinking here was that since I was still running something of a SE (a hybrid, really, since I kept all of Mongolia's and Inca's cottages), Representation would be very helpful. Not to mention jails to help minimize war weariness which, as you can imagine, was mounting--hence the gradual climb of the culture slider.

My next Great Person also appeared. Against all odds, I got a Great Engineer in Guangzhou:



As you can see, he'll lightbulb Steam Power to an extent. The other option is to save him for a wonder. I have no idea which one. Maybe I should go after Democracy for the Statue of Liberty? Then again, the game could be over before that wonder is finished. Thoughts?

Only three Incan cities remained on my continent.



Make that 2.



Er... one.



Oh, so that's where you've been hiding your troops, Huayna! Such as they are. Yes, Huayna eventually managed to research Rifling, but as you can see it was too little, too late. I had managed to steadily chip away at his economic foundations by capturing city after city, and I now had a large force of veteran units to send against him. He actually wound up throwing most of the units listed above in a valiant but futile last attack on Tiwanaku. Poor dumb bastard.

The remaining Riflemen weren't much of a match for my hyper-promoted city raiding Grenadiers:







All that action spawned my next Great General, who appeared in Guangzhou:



I still haven't decided how to use him. Another Warlord unit? A Military Instructor? Many of Huayna's cities have Military Academies, so I don't really need any of those. It's a pity these guys don't lightbulb techs. They really should, shouldn't they?

Huayna has now been kicked off of my continent. He still has that little island west of Samargand, and I saw one of his Galleons sniffing around another large island west of Persepolis, which has a barb city on it. I'll show it in the State of the World post. Meanwhile, here's what Hauyna is now willing to offer in exchange for his miserable life:



Well, I've almost got Constitution, so I was thinking of waiting one turn and then either making peace or vassalizing him. That would end the war weariness and allow me to immediately send my troops after Isabella's territory--which I think will be enough for the win.

As I said, a State of the World post will follow in a little while. For now, here's the saved game file.
 
Would the Incan leader offer more stuff if you conquered more of his cities? If so, might as well go for that last tech he's holding back.
 
He already lightbulbed most of Scientific Method, and has two turns left on Constitution. The only tech he needs from Huayna is Economics.

---

Sisiutil, I'd use the Great General as a Medic III to speed up the process of capturing Izzy's cities, but that might be superfluous. I'll wait to see how much you have to the domination limit to make a comment on it.
 
Divine Right?? Feh. See if he'll cough up Scientific Method instead! Then you can pick up DR after you wipe out Izzy. :lol:

So what's your Domination threshold now?

He already lightbulbed most of Scientific Method, and has two turns left on Constitution.
No, he said the GS could lightbulb most of SM. At least I hope that's what he said...it makes no sense to partially lb a tech that you don't plan to research immediately...
 
I looked at the save and you really have a good opportunity to wrap this game up in the next 20 or so turns (and the last several of those will just be waiting for revolts to end and cultural borders to expand).

First of all take the capitulation deal that Huayna is offering or just make peace with him. You don't have anything more to gain by fighting him.

Then immediately declare war on Isabella and move your units into Spanish territory before the borders reset. According to the power graph she isn't going to be able to offer any resistance. If I read the tech screen right Isabella has MT, but not Chemistry or Rifling. So your army might face a few cavalry at worst, but there will be nothing better than musketmen to defend the cities. :D

You have a massive stack in Cordoba that can move this turn. Move a cavalry next to Seville to see what its garrison is like and then decide how many troops you have to move toward there to take the city. The rest of the stack should move toward Madrid. Also move most of the stack in Tiwanaku toward Madrid. You can use a frigate to check out the garrison of Toledo to make sure there is no threat there.

Your forces should be in Barcelona within 10 turns. :dance:

A couple more things to consider:

You don't have any ships with transport capability anywhere near Spanish territory, which you'll need to deal with Salamanca. Switch the build of Corihuayrachina to a galleon and switch a citizen from a farm tile to the workshop tile. That will get the galleon done in 6 turns, which should get it to Barcelona about the same time you army arrives there. A few turns of ferrying troops over should give you enough firepower to take the city. Start transporting a rifle and cannons and continue with more cannons. The Spanish civilization should be destroyed in about 15 turns. :mwaha:

If you're concerned about reaching the land domination treshold you could use the galleons you have/are building on the east coast to transport a couple of settlers plus garrison units over to that island with the barb city to found cities on the south coast. Build culture in the new cities to get a quick border expansion. Although Freddy may beat you to it.
 
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