Poland had a Golden Age?

No it's explaining why North Americans and Western Europeans don't know much about Poland.

Swedishguy said:

By saying absolutelty nothing about Polish history? I'm a bit dubious.

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Well generally I thought others rose to the challenge well enough, but...

... if you want to know more about Polish history read Norman Davies "Gods Playground, A History Of Poland". It is written by an Englishman and is very good and perfectly suitable for any westerner with a thirst of knowledge about Polish history.

I think Terry Pratchett once described a Golden Age as something like "a time when men with swords could convince people to build big things out of a stone" and "a time so long ago that no-one can actually remember how bad things were". My rough paraphrasing aside, he has a point- Golden Ages are usually viewed from the top, not the bottom. Look at Britain- out "Golden Age" is the late mid-to-late 1800s, the height of the Empire and Victorian industry, yet the majority of the population lived in poverty, the country was run by an oligarchy pretending to be a democracy and the the government was only concerned was in maintaining the status quo. The Irish starved, Africans were slaughtered or enslaved and the poor were routinely imprisoned. Some "Golden Age" that was.
Frankly, if Poland has never had a "Golden Age" then it's purely to it's credit.

St Exupère;5634975 said:

Poland's Golden Age could be in the near future; there is going to be a strong christian renaissance in Europe, most likely from the east, and probably fueled by the possible end of the catholic/orthodox schism. Poland will in all likelyhood be at the forefront of such renaissance. Their economy is doing better and better, they have important diasporas all over Europe and in the USA. What they need now is to fix their catastrophic demography - it has not been low for too long, so the trend is still reversible if tackled now.

Also, if some events start unfolding the way I think they could in the world, Poland will have a very, very key role in Europe and should be able to greatly benefit from it.

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Ι think that you will be surprised that even in Eastern Europe there are many atheists , and several of which are baptized (as i was) . Even among Christians there is a good percentage of those that dismiss the church as corrupt or just don't care.

Religion IMO , is past it's time and has lost it's influence.

Plotinus, apologies for the delay in my answer.

Plotinus said:

Even if there were a reaction by Christian minorities, that would not be enough to turn the minorities into majorities.

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That is not what I said, though when a deep cultural movement starts you never quite knows when and where it stops.

Plotinus said:

Even supposing that you're right that there will be some massive resurgence in Christianity in Europe, I can't think of anything like that ever happening before (unless you count the resurgence of the churches after periods of persecution, such as fourth-century Rome, nineteenth-century France, or late twentieth-century Russia - but obviously those are very different situations).

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The thing is, for the 1st time since its evangelization, Europe is not christian in Europe. It took from the XVIIIth until roughly after WW2 to complete the process. The situation cannot be compared with anything else the continent has known.
We now live in materialistic, and relativist, societies. There is no right or wrong, morality is not connected with the laws anymore, and Humanity is indeed its self sole horizon. Humanity is an idol to itself. We are starting to see signs that this world is doomed, that the European peoples will be replaced by other stronger, more dynamic ones (mainly African and Asian) and that other absolutes will dominate the continent - islam being best positioned by far.
It is the combination of both, a vacuum or authority, power, will to create and hence will to survive, combined with the pressure from external absolutisms, that will for sure prompt a Christian reaction and hence a renaissance, since today our civilization is dying in those parts of the world. It is however, not yet dead.

Plotinus said:

The US model isn't really appropriate, because Christianity never became a minority there. The churches suffered in the 1960s like elsewhere in the west, but not nearly as much; and the key difference between the US and western Europe and Canada is that the decline of Christianity continued after the 1960s elsewhere but the decline stopped after the 1960s in the US. The reasons for that are complex and still not well understood, but the point is that in the US Christianity didn't decline as it did elsewhere - not that it declined and then recovered.

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True; since the USA whether people like it or not, is the herald of Western Civilization, there is hope that like most other cultural movements that started there, similar things will happen in Europe. I agree however that since Christians have lost almost all levers of public influence in most European countries, this resurgence will not have the same level as the American one.

You talked about Christian (Catholic in that case) resurgence in XIXth France, which somehow continued until 1914. It was a very deep, strong, cultural movement that probably had the adhesion of the majority of the population as polls showed on a regular basis. It ultimately failed and vaned, and in my opninion it is because of external events rather than because of intrinsic events (in this case, 2 consecutive, massive and mind-bobbling world wars). The resurgence I am talking about is in my opinion bound to happen mecanically for the reasons I have explained. Yet, it is unpredictible events that will shape its form and substance. Without accidental (or providential) events helping it, I would agree with you that in all cases, this resurgence will have little chance to vanquish its two foes I have mentioned before.

I have also mentioned on another thread underground forces and trends, that many do not yet see in Europe, and that none see in the USA. In a country like France, I am dead sure that tomorrow many citizens will wake up to the sound of minarets without even noticing, or working for multinational that will have been bought by middle-eastern and asian assets. The dilution of French as a culture is going to be so fast, that turning back will be impossible. The sole counter-power that will remain to this (granted, an extreme minority, powerless) will be the Christians.

Plotinus said:

Schisms occasionally get resolved, but it happens very rarely, and the bigger the schism the less likely it is to get resolved.

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What more than often happens is that the schismatic party eventually fades and becomes irrelevant. And as we speak, there is another schism from the Catholic Church which is about to be resolved.

Plotinus said:

Whilst there has certainly been raprochement between the Catholic and Orthodox churches in the last fifty years, I don't believe that anything like union could realistically happen; even if there weren't important doctrinal and structural differences between them, the sheer inertia of having been separate for many centuries is almost impossible to overcome.

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Agree that the more time has passed, the tougher; I believe however that communion is possible sometime soon (end of century). Doctrinal differences are minor, the filioque has been solved for a long time; the biggest obstacles are cultural, liturgic and obviously, institutional.

Plotinus said:

Many of the Orthodox churches of eastern Europe have clung to a retrenched conservatism in reaction to theological liberalism, and this may cause them to become marginalised in their own cultures. For Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant churches alike, there are also internal divisions from the communist days; many Christians opposed communism because it was socially illiberal, while other Christians opposed communism because it was materalist and humanist; during communism these Christians were all on the same side, but now they are not.

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I fully agree, and I believe the trend is going to shift gradually to the advantage of the latter; because it is the materialist and humanist (as in idolatric) components of liberalism that had ex-communist finally become liberals, and that are yet soon going to drive the population (and the planet) mad. The Church's Social Doctrine is the only credible, culturally sound, alternative to progressism and the growth/consumption dogma.

Plotinus said:

After communism collapsed, the Catholic Church returned briefly to its old position of authority in Poland, but within only a few years many Poles, especially the younger generation, were sick of this. In 1990 the Catholic Church tried to unify church and state in Poland, which failed, but it did succeed in restricting abortion rights, birth control availability, and so on. This had the effect of massively undermining their popularity, and so the pendulum swung back the other way. Polls throughout the 1990s show most people in Poland wanting the church to have less influence.

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I somewhat agree, though this is not reflected as such in polls.

I believe however that Eastern-Europeans do have an edge in that, when they realize the mess Western Europe will soon be due to mainly, immigration, destruction of the Nations and their cultures, and materialism as the sole horizon to the people, that they will still have time to take another path. Maybe allied to the USA if Christians continue and succeed in their cultural revolution there, and ideally with Russia. Their long totalitarian and communist past, will help them identifying very soon the new materialist totalitarianism that should take power in the UE. Effectively, it already has all the power - the agenda is just not pushed too fast and democracy also (and surprisingly!) slows the process.

Plotinus said:

Moreover, I can't see events within the churches there having a huge amount of influence in western Europe. Even if there were a revival of the eastern churches, this would not mean much to most western Europeans, because events within the Orthodox Church are irrelevant to most western Europeans.

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Except to those Christians who are now minorities in their countries, and whose life is going to become tougher and tougher - as Christians, I mean.

Plotinus said:

In the unlikely event of there ever being a major Christian revival in western Europe, I would say that it would probably be Protestant in nature, and it would be far more likely to be inspired by African Christianity than by eastern European Christianity.

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I doubt it, because what that resurgence will target is precisely going to be liberalism which after all, is a product of portestantism. As for African christianism, it has never been an important political force in Africa itself yet (except, maybe, Ethiopia) so I doubt it will have such impact. Besides, most African immigration into Europe is - sadly - no christian.

Traitorfish said:

From the East and in the East; Western Europe is not going to see any great revival of religion any time soon. People these days don't need God, they've no reason to embrace the madness that it took so long to shake off.

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I live in France and since I was born, I have never seen so much debates, interest, fears, hopes, because of religion. Mainly because of the irruption of islam which is now very popular; but there is also, a visible trend within Christians if you look closely. Despite constant and even accelerated de-christianization, there is a growing, young, visible and outspoken catholic minority that will eventually have a role to play. Also, all materialist ideologies are dead despite having conquered us all, and the horizon is IMO religious again.

Traitorfish said:

Besides, I don't think that the Catholic/Orthodox schism is going to end anytime soon, especially since the increase in religious enthusiasm that you suggest would, in all likelihood, just lead to an increase in sectarian rivalry, not to the re-union of a thousand year old schism. I've heard talk of an Anglican/Catholic reunion, but that was in response to falling interest in religion, not an increasing one.

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Anglican/Catholic is not a schism, but a heresy. Oecumenism exist but reunion is technically not possible for the dogma gaps are immense. Catholic/Orthodox is "only" a schism and it will have more and more chances of happening as Christians in Europe get marginalized and bullied both by secular relativism, and islam. Again, if I know History, it is bound to happen mecanically. The magnitude of such resurgence, however, is unknown.

Traitorfish said:

I think Terry Pratchett once described a Golden Age as something like "a time when men with swords could convince people to build big things out of a stone" and "a time so long ago that no-one can actually remember how bad things were". My rough paraphrasing aside, he has a point- Golden Ages are usually viewed from the top, not the bottom. Look at Britain- out "Golden Age" is the late mid-to-late 1800s, the height of the Empire and Victorian industry, yet the majority of the population lived in poverty, the country was run by an oligarchy pretending to be a democracy and the the government was only concerned was in maintaining the status quo. The Irish starved, Africans were slaughtered or enslaved and the poor were routinely imprisoned. Some "Golden Age" that was.

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1/ the notion of a Golden Age is, naturally, purely relative. Take Louis XIV's France: the material conditions of the French back then might look anachronically shocking to you today, yet they were better off than most other humans in 1700.

2/ you are referring to only and solely, materialist and individualist conditions. This is a very biased view of History, a marxist one if anything. Who is the happy teenager, the one living in a modern home with 3 TV plasma screens, video consoles and 2 fridges but divorced parents and no brothers or sisters, or the teenager living in a poor suburban area with a solid and fraternal family, strong religious social bonds that create a natural order around him, and playing football in the dust every evening with his numerous pals?

Besides probably being less happy than the latter, the future of the former and the future of the people he belongs to, is also much darker IMO.

scy12 said:

Ι think that you will be surprised that even in Eastern Europe there are many atheists , and several of which are baptized (as i was) . Even among Christians there is a good percentage of those that dismiss the church as corrupt or just don't care.

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I am anything but surprised.

scy12 said:

Religion IMO , is past it's time and has lost it's influence.

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Humanity cannot survive long without a quest for Truth, which is in essence, religious.

St Exupère;5643091 said:

I live in France and since I was born, I have never seen so much debates, interest, fears, hopes, because of religion. Mainly because of the irruption of islam which is now very popular; but there is also, a visible trend within Christians if you look closely. Despite constant and even accelerated de-christianization, there is a growing, young, visible and outspoken catholic minority that will eventually have a role to play. Also, all materialist ideologies are dead despite having conquered us all, and the horizon is IMO religious again.

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"Visible trend of Christianisation"? Maybe where you are, but certainly not over here. I come from a more religous background than most- Irish Catholic family- which includes the whole Catholic education deal, and I'd say that less than a quarter of the students at my school even believed in God, let alone Catholic doctrine. Maybe a few will grow up to the zealots that you expect, but I doubt that they'll be anything except a loud-mouthed minority.

Anglican/Catholic is not a schism, but a heresy. Oecumenism exist but reunion is technically not possible for the dogma gaps are immense. Catholic/Orthodox is "only" a schism and it will have more and more chances of happening as Christians in Europe get marginalized and bullied both by secular relativism, and islam. Again, if I know History, it is bound to happen mecanically. The magnitude of such resurgence, however, is unknown.

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Hey, I didn't say I thought an Anglican-Catholic re-uinon was likely, just that it had been mentioned by some, and that even that- Anglicanism and Catholicism are, in fact, much closer than Anglicanism and Orthodoxy- was highly unlikely.
I'd like to know how historical events have any bearing on this because, unless I missed something major, there has been nothing like the events you describe. Closest I know of is (most of) the Free Churches of Scotland re-joining the United Presbyterian Church of Scotland back in 1900, and even then the original split had not been on any major theological grounds.

Traitorfish said:

"Visible trend of Christianisation"?

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No, I don't recall using these words; I said that beyond an obvious accelerated de-christianization, there is a trend of the resurgence in the public, cultural, moral and political arenas of a dynamic and motivated christian minority. And as you know, it is torrents that eventually form rivers.

Traitorfish said:

Maybe where you are, but certainly not over here. I come from a more religous background than most- Irish Catholic family- which includes the whole Catholic education deal, and I'd say that less than a quarter of the students at my school even believed in God, let alone Catholic doctrine. Maybe a few will grow up to the zealots that you expect, but I doubt that they'll be anything except a loud-mouthed minority.

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You never know, because if those "loud-mouthed" minorities are the only ones to really fight for something they believe in while the rest of the lads don't have much to say in respect of such "quest for truth", then they could end-up much more influential than what you think today.

Traitorfish said:

I'd like to know how historical events have any bearing on this because,

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It is quite simple: as long as most people believe that their future is better in a progressive materialist society, nothing will change. When they start (and it has already started) to believe that it isnot the case anymore, then Western Europe might change extremely rapidly.

Traitorfish said:

unless I missed something major, there has been nothing like the events you describe. Closest I know of is (most of) the Free Churches of Scotland re-joining the United Presbyterian Church of Scotland back in 1900, and even then the original split had not been on any major theological grounds.

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During the first conciles of the christian era, there was a slim chance that all the different early Christian churches would agree on a creed and dogma. They did. Later on, divisions, heresies, schisms were more than numerous; most eventually vanished or got resolved. Who is aryan, nestorian, or bogomile today? instead, you have the moslem.

What's all this stuff about Western Europe not being Christian? When did Christians become a minority in W. Europe? As far as I know, the majority of W. Europeans are still Christians ... or at least regard themselves as such. E.g. 68% of Germans regard themselves as Christians. In Scotland, no longer a Christian country according to its secularist elite as well as the last Pope, consists of a population of whom 65% regard themselves as Christian, with the vast majority of the 27% who claim to have no religion having received Christian baptism. Atheist Europe is very much an elite delusion and the product of wishful thinking on the part of its intelligentsia (and those who ape it further down the intellectual food chain) and the propaganda of this elite (who use the claim to undermine Christian institutions) as well non-Europeans like the American Christian right and certain Islamists.

St Exupère;5643430 said:

During the first conciles of the christian era, there was a slim chance that all the different early Christian churches would agree on a creed and dogma. They did. Later on, divisions, heresies, schisms were more than numerous; most eventually vanished or got resolved. Who is aryan, nestorian, or bogomile today? instead, you have the moslem.

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Er, there are many Nestorians today: they are called the Church of the East. There are also many Arians today: they are called Jehovah's Witnesses. There may not be many Bogomils, but there are certainly a lot of Gnostics, which is what Bogomilism was (apparently) a version of. Heresies and schisms rarely die, they just go underground. And at the councils you mention, everyone didn't agree - what generally happened was that a majority agreed, and a minority got condemned. If there hadn't been disagreement no-one would have bothered calling a council to settle the issue. Those minorities didn't just disappear overnight as a result.

calgacus said:

What's all this stuff about Western Europe not being Christian? When did Christians become a minority in W. Europe? As far as I know, the majority of W. Europeans are still Christians ... or at least regard themselves as such. E.g. 68% of Germans regard themselves as Christians. In Scotland, no longer a Christian country according to its secularist elite as well as the last Pope, consists of a population of whom 65% regard themselves as Christian, with the vast majority of the 27% who claim to have no religion having received Christian baptism. Atheist Europe is very much an elite delusion and the product of wishful thinking on the part of its intelligentsia (and those who ape it further down the intellectual food chain) and the propaganda of this elite (who use the claim to undermine Christian institutions) as well non-Europeans like the American Christian right and certain Islamists.

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Statistics such as these are notoriously ambiguous. Christianity is certainly a minority affair in most of western Europe to all intents and purposes. Atheism is also a minority affair - being non-religious does not make someone an atheist. Most people claim to believe in something or other, but most people do not subscribe to any organised religion, and certainly most people are not active Christians.

The problem is partly that you can't rely hugely on polls and censuses, because people do still tend to think of themselves as Christian by default, as it were. But this does not reflect how they actually behave. For example, the 2001 census in Britain found that 71% of the population claimed to be Christian, but only one in ten people actually went to church (roughly the same proportion as in France). The point at which Christians effectively became a minority is obviously hard to pinpoint, but it was probably some time in the 1960s. The role of the 1960s in relegating Christianity to a minority interest is very much debated and still poorly understood: historians are mainly divided between those who think the 1960s marked something really new in this matter, and those who think they were the culmination of an anti-Christian trend that had been going on for decades.

There's a very interesting book on this by Callum Brown, The death of Christian Britain London: Routledge 2001.

To answer the OP, the Polish golden age started when their unique unit, the Winged Hussars, won a battle.
It lasted 20 turns.

Plotinus said:

Statistics such as these are notoriously ambiguous. Christianity is certainly a minority affair in most of western Europe to all intents and purposes.

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That is factually and statistically unsustainable.

Plotinus said:

Statistics such as these are notoriously ambiguous. Christianity is certainly a minority affair in most of western Europe to all intents and purposes. Atheism is also a minority affair - being non-religious does not make someone an atheist. Most people claim to believe in something or other, but most people do not subscribe to any organised religion, and certainly most people are not active Christians.

The problem is partly that you can't rely hugely on polls and censuses, because people do still tend to think of themselves as Christian by default, as it were. But this does not reflect how they actually behave.

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Well, it's not up to you judge the religion of others. If that's what they say they are, then it's difficult to argue with them. Using their behavior to judge their Christianity likewise is very dangerous too. Since even Christian fundamentalists can't agree what it is to be a true Christian, I can't see where one is supposed to derive some model of "true Christianity" with which to contradict people's own beliefs about themselves.

Plotinus said:

The problem is partly that you can't rely hugely on polls and censuses, because people do still tend to think of themselves as Christian by default, as it were.

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As above.

Plotinus said:

For example, the 2001 census in Britain found that 71% of the population claimed to be Christian, but only one in ten people actually went to church (roughly the same proportion as in France).

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The reason people don't go to church every Sunday (not a requirement of Christianity in any case) is because of the breakdown of the communities for which church life was central, as well as other such reasons. Becoming non-Christian only explains a small percentage of the decrease in Church going.

Plotinus said:

The point at which Christians effectively became a minority is obviously hard to pinpoint, but it was probably some time in the 1960s.

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But this is wrong, Christians are not a minority. They have yet to become one. The decline of many Christian institutions and the peripheralization of explicitly Christian teaching in Western life does not equate with Christians becoming a minority. In the vast majority of the West's Christian history actual Christian teaching was just as if not more peripheral to the lives of its nominally Christian inhabitants. Just read any of the interviews done by Papal inquisitions and such things throughout the Middle Ages. The ordinary person (sometimes even the local priests) did not have a clue about even the basic tenets of Christianity, yet these people made up most of the society people regard as more Christian than the modern one.

What has happened is that numbers of Atheists have grown while Christian institutions have become weaker in the everyday life of most people; but people regarding themselves as Christian still form the vast majority of the population of Western Europe. Lack of real Christianity (as perceived by a hard-core minority) has been a problem in Western Europe since the nominal conversion of the Emperor/its kings in the Dark Ages.

this isn't about Christianity in europe, it's about poland's golden age ...

St Exupère;5643430 said:

No, I don't recall using these words; I said that beyond an obvious accelerated de-christianization, there is a trend of the resurgence in the public, cultural, moral and political arenas of a dynamic and motivated christian minority. And as you know, it is torrents that eventually form rivers.

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Well, that was not a direct quote, I admit, but it was a rough summary of what you'd said, or at least how I understood it.
I still don't see where this notion of a resurgence is coming from. In my experience, religion is an increasingly minor factor in most people's lives, even those who are still officially Christian. Maybe in France it's different (though I doubt it's all that different), but here in the UK the Church- Anglican, Catholic or Presbyterian- is a relic of the past.

You never know, because if those "loud-mouthed" minorities are the only ones to really fight for something they believe in while the rest of the lads don't have much to say in respect of such "quest for truth", then they could end-up much more influential than what you think today.

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No, they won't, because people don't give a damn what zealots think anymore. This isn't the dark ages, you can't brandish a cross and get people's attention. For better or worse, people have their minds on other things. Even my family, who, as I've mentioned, are more religous than most, don't pay the loud-mouthed minority much heed.

It is quite simple: as long as most people believe that their future is better in a progressive materialist society, nothing will change. When they start (and it has already started) to believe that it isnot the case anymore, then Western Europe might change extremely rapidly.

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Ah, so round about the time hell freezes over? Good to know.

During the first conciles of the christian era, there was a slim chance that all the different early Christian churches would agree on a creed and dogma. They did. Later on, divisions, heresies, schisms were more than numerous; most eventually vanished or got resolved. Who is aryan, nestorian, or bogomile today? instead, you have the moslem.

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But the Aryans, Nestorians and Bogomiles did not re-join the church, they did not peacefully convert to your ways, they did not see the wisdom of the Church. They were "purged" by the hypocrites who lead the church, that's why they're gone.

@calgacus: some of these polls, for whatever they are worth, go into many more details. A very recent one in France gave ~60% catholics + ~3% other christians (protestants mainly). Yet among these and again roughly from memory, only 2/3 believed in God, 1/3 in Christ, most could not explain the concept of the Trinity and 10% declared going to church on sundays.
I know I have seen roughly the same trends in UK polls, and I strongly suspect it to be the same in most of the rest of Western Europe with the possible exceptions of Portugal, Ireland and just maybe Italy where that christian resurgence I have mentioned is already on its way (for the first time, we are seeing increases in church attendance that went up to ~30% of the global population).

On top of this and beyonf these polls, most Western European societies clearly breach in theory and in practice what most Christians consider as non-negotiable ethical positions - abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem cell research, defense of the traditional family. On other less critical but very controversial ethical positions (divorce, capital-interest based economy) there is not even a debate anymore.

Finally, and speaking for France only, while the word God is now again admitted in public discussions with strangers, collegues, or in general people outside of one's inner circle (and I suspect this is mostly due to the incursion of islam into public life), pronouncing the words Jesus-Christ on such occasions immediately raises eyebrows and usually cuts short the discussion and creates unease.

All this considered, it is clear to me that Christians are spiritually and culturally, a minority in Western Europe and I agree with Plotinus that in most countries the turning point was the 1960/1970's. Yet, in my parish of central Toulouse as in many other, mainly large cities, mass attendances are clearly on the rise. Where I attend office, it is quite spectacular when compared with 15 years ago.

Traitorfish said:

In my experience, religion is an increasingly minor factor in most people's lives, even those who are still officially Christian. Maybe in France it's different (though I doubt it's all that different), but here in the UK the Church- Anglican, Catholic or Presbyterian- is a relic of the past.

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It is clear that what you say about religion does not apply at all to islam which is strongly on the rise all over Europe, and in particular in the UK and France. It is also clear that there is a desillusion for progressist and materialist ideologies, and a spectacular attraction towards esoterism. The christian resurgence might be much less clear to most, but this is because it is happening at the same time as mass de-christianization. As European cultures gradually void themselves of their christian elements (with all the consequences this brings, mainly in family lives and social violence in general), Christians become minorities and as such are more and more dynamic and vocal because they understand it is a condition of their very survival (as a distinct culture, I mean).

Traitorfish said:

No, they won't, because people don't give a damn what zealots think anymore. This isn't the dark ages, you can't brandish a cross and get people's attention.

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Humans simply cannot abandon their quest for truth - personal and collective.

Traitorfish said:

Ah, so round about the time hell freezes over? Good to know.

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This is chicken and egg: people don't have faith because hell freezes over them, yet when they massively stop being faithful hell usually start to freeze over their heads (see first part of XXth century for this).

Traitorfish said:

But the Aryans, Nestorians and Bogomiles did not re-join the church, they did not peacefully convert to your ways, they did not see the wisdom of the Church. They were "purged" by the hypocrites who lead the church, that's why they're gone.

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It is a little difficult to exchange views given the use of some of your words, as someonelse already told you. But let me answer that what you are saying is pure propaganda: take the Cathars in my region (Cathars were dualists, akeen to Bogomiles); it is only a very tiny minority that got killed, most eventually converted to Christianism. You will argue that they were forced, at least by social pressure. But this would be both a specious, and improvable point.

Plotinus said:

Er, there are many Nestorians today: they are called the Church of the East.

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Not quite: Nestorius believed in a dual-personae Jesus, the Assyrian Church does not. Yet, I agree that the schism is still there and originates from Nestorians so you have a point. Even though most of the ex-Nestorians are to be found in what we call today the Chaldean Catholic Church which is in full communion with Rome.

Plotinus said:

There are also many Arians today: they are called Jehovah's Witnesses.

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Technically, there have been no survival of arianism. JW's come close, though in all cases it is a very late resurgence of that heresy.

Plotinus said:

There may not be many Bogomils, but there are certainly a lot of Gnostics, which is what Bogomilism was (apparently) a version of.

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Yes but gnosticism is so vague that it can hardly be called a religion - while Bogomiles, and Cathars, had organized themselves.

Plotinus said:

Heresies and schisms rarely die, they just go underground.

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In that they are divergences of opinions on key, complex theological points, I agree that they will always come back. Yet when they have not, or ceased to develop as religious movements one can consider them to have died. Which also gives a case to prove that intellectually, they were flawed.

St Exupère;5646556 said:

Not quite: Nestorius believed in a dual-personae Jesus, the Assyrian Church does not.

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Nestorius didn't either, really: his views were fundamentally the same as those of Theodore of Mopsuestia, supposedly his cousin, who has always been the main authority for the Assyrian Christians. Indeed, later Persian theologians such as Babai the Great were, if anything, more Nestorian than Nestorius.

I'd like to address many of the other points that have been raised on this page, but as someone said, none of this has much to do with Poland's Golden Age, so let's save it for somewhere else. I'm sure we can have a thread in History on the decline (or not) of religion in Europe in the twentieth century if we want.