ALC Game 17, Take 2: Russia/Peter (BtS)

Pre-Game Thread
Previous Game Thread

Starting Position (this post, below)
Round 1: 4000 BC to 3175 BC
Round 2: 3175 BC to 2625 BC
Round 3: 2625 BC to 1975 BC
Round 4: 1975 BC to 1050 BC
Round 5: 1050 BC to 370 AD
Round 6: 370 AD to 670 AD
Round 7: 670 AD to 1090 AD
Round 8: 1090 AD to 1340 AD
Round 9: 1340 AD to 1550 AD
Round 10: 1550 AD to 1780 AD
Round 11: 1780 AD to 1812 AD
Round 12: 1812 AD to 1930 AD
Post Mortem

The idea of the All Leaders Challenge is that I'm going to play a game with each of the Civ IV leaders. With the help of all the posters who participate, I will attempt to make the most of the leader's unique characteristics: traits, starting techs, unit, and building. Aside from the leader, the other game settings are (mostly) kept constant for the sake of comparison. I will post the saved game files, screenshots, and status reports here as the game progresses. Everyone then has a chance to chime in with their strategy ideas, or voice their frustration (or glee) when I make a mistake.

Everyone is invited to offer opinions and advice, and to make your own attempt at playing the same game. But if you do play a "shadow game", I kindly request that you refrain from posting spoilers--i.e. any facts or even hints about the map, opponents, and so on--before I'm there myself. I'm trying to play the game as authentically as possible.

In this ALC game, I'll be playing as Peter, leader of Russia. I'm playing the game using the new Beyond the Sword expansion pack. The difficulty level is Monarch and the speed is Epic. I decided to have a go at one of the new map types included in BtS, "Big and Small".

As some of you may recall, the first attempt at an ALC with Peter didn't go well. I wound up in very poor land to run a Specialist Economy (which we decided to do to take advantage of Peter's Philosophical trait), and to make matters worse, we had Ragnar as a neighbour and he had a dream start with 3 gem tiles and marble to boot. He built the Oracle and the Great Library, then he clobbered me. Big time.

So I decided to give poor ol' Pete a second chance, and with the expansion pack freshly release, I also decided to incorporate it. So here we are again!

I'll be playing the game very slowly (very few turns per round), as I did with the first Warlords game with Asoka. Yes, I've begun playing with BtS off-line, but I doubt that I'm leveraging the new features very well, and that's one of the things I'm looking forward to exploring with everyone in this game thread.

Here are all of the game settings:



And here is a look at the starting position:



Pretty sweet for a specialist economy, eh? No, I didn't go into Worldbuilder--I never do (not for the ALCs, anyway ). I also didn't regenerate over and over again. I got this right off the bat and decided to stick with it. I think you can understand why.

At any rate, I'm thinking I might want to prioritize researching Fishing. Just a hunch.

However, we've been presented with a bit of a poser--too much of a good thing, in a way. The gold mine, to be specific. If I settle in place, it won't be in the capital's fat cross, which is a bit of a shame. I should also point out that the crabs are out of the settle-in-place capital's fat cross too. If I move, I give up some seafood and the plains hill my Settler is on. There is another plains hill 2 tiles west of the Settler, right next to the gold, but it's not coastal.

The other factor affecting my thinking is that most SE experts recommend cottaging the capital to take advantage of bureaucracy. Well, this starting position isn't a commerce city, it's a GP farm if ever I saw one! Which means that I'll either be (a) moving the capital at some point or (b) maybe I should save the hammers and move the capital now.

I could always split the seafood up between two cities. I could move the Settler onto the forested plains tile currently occupied by my Scout, or on to the plains tile 1N of the gold, and found the capital there to claim the gold, crabs, and clams; the GP farm could go on the forested grassland 1E of the Settler's current position, claiming the fish, 2 clams, and the corn and a lot of grassland that can be farmed pre-Civil Service thanks to that lake. Granted, this plan would delay founding the capital until the 3rd turn, but I should think the SE would be able to make up for that, especially given all the food that's available to at least 2 of my cities.

Let me know what you think--like I have to ask!

Too bad you're not playing on normal speed

Anyways, I would settle 1NW. Gold + crabs as you mentioned. I think I would use the gold to power your research through aesthetics to literature to nab the great library and some of the useful aesthetics wonders. You will have a high-production capital. Try to save your forests for these wonders and whip settlers instead. I would say grow to size 4 with workboats/warriors then build a worker, whip a settler. rinse repeat.

Note: Cossacks now pretty much suck imho. So I wouldn't base my game around them. Instead, I would suggest a computers beeline after democracy to take advantage of the excellent UU.

I would also suggest space race or you will not have much chance to leverage the UB.

The AI builds a lot of units so you have to be more judicious in your warring.

First of all, good luck for your first BtS ALC!

Next, about city positioning: I'd just settle in place and build another city later 1N of the gold (from what I see right not). It could grab the capital's clams if needed. Of course gold city might change depending on what you find S and W of the gold, and also N of the crabs (looks like tundra, though we can't tell if it's an island or part of the continent).

And a question: what's "Big and Small" as map type anyway?

Well, my first thought was that your scout was your settler, and that you should then settle in place. So I like settling the capital where the scout is, and then settling a second city on the forest 1 east of the settler.

With a specialist economy, it's not such a bad thing to share food resources: if you feel like MMing, whichever city is closer to popping the next specialist gets the additional food and can run more specialists to get the next one out quicker. Especially when you have so much food already!

Okay, I'm off to get my own copy of BTS. This is too much.

Move scout to grassland hill NW and post again

Hmm... I would probably settle in place as the plains hill will give you an extra hammer in the capital city's tile... all the better to churn out those workboats for a fast start. 1 NW doesn't look bad either though... picking up the gold and crabs at the expense of 1 clam, freshwater, and settling on the plains hill. This definitely looks like a food/GP farm, but it will also serve very nicely as an initial production city. 1 NW would get you 9 (?) coastal tiles, which with the Moai Statues and bureaucracy could be quite nice!

EDIT: With all the seafood present near your settler's current location, I personally don't think it's worth it to move the settler 1 N of the gold or that far in general... you can easily pick that up with another city soon... especially with all that food! =)

I say settle 1NW, you pick up a gold, exchange 1clam for 1crab.

Only downside is that you lose a few grassland tiles for plains tiles(but that could be good with your abundance of food)

Sisiutil said:

... or on to the plains tile 1N of the gold, and found the capital there to claim the gold, crabs, and clams; the GP farm could go on the forested grassland 1E of the Settler's current position, claiming the fish, 2 clams, and the corn and a lot of grassland that can be farmed pre-Civil Service thanks to that lake. Granted, this plan would delay founding the capital until the 3rd turn, but I should think the SE would be able to make up for that, especially given all the food that's available to at least 2 of my cities.

Click to expand...

This seems like the best plan to me. I would move the scout NW and then W to check for more resources in that area just to see if a different location makes sense . Gold in your capital's fat cross should more than make up for not settling until turn 3.

I guess this start makes up for the last game, although I think the map scripts may have been adjusted somewhat as I've seen some really good starting positions in BTS.

BTW I didn't see any mention but I assume you're using the 3.02 patch.

One problem with settling NW is that it is a very high food site but it is not fresh water so it may be hard to get enough health to support the massive population that site can support

I'm with the "settle in place group" . The gold would be good for a later city... if you settle in place you'll get a 5 food start + fresh water lake ( like you said: a fairly decent GP farm. Maybe a capitol change would be in hand for the future ) . If you can get the Collosus ( adding to the Moai statues ) this will be a heck of a city.

A small note: Consider building the GW if you get stone nearby. GW now gives spy points and a early GSpy ( hooray, another GS to make confusion in posts. Like if the GP wasn't enough ) can give you a bunch of techs if used against a civ with some nice techs ( like CS, CoL, Currency, you name it... ). It's so powerful ( some would say unbalancing ) that I doubt that it will last long ( see this )

What settings did you use to make the Big and Small map? I mostly use Custom Game, so I'm not sure how much it asks you about, but I know that for Hemispheres, it asks about every setting available.

I like 1NE. It gets you all but one visible resource, and gives you some of the best production available. And getting that gold early is huge. I'd build the Maoi Statues (9 coastal tiles, 5 of which you'll always want to work isn't bad, since this will already be a strong production city) and the NE, and probably move the capital later. It's probably too far north anyway. You'll have tons of food to run specialists and be able to swap to Wonder building on a whim. And there's no better GP farm than a city with a ton of wonders and a ton of specialists.

Big and Small generally has plenty of islands and seafood, so getting the Colossus and Great Lighthouse may be worthwhile. You'll probably be running low on the science slider with your SE, which means that any coastal city can become profitable at 2-3 population.

One thing that I've noticed is that having a tech lead is less of a game breaker than before. They've done a good job of adding intermediate units/delaying good units, so it's often worth playing a more balanced game than trying to run to liberalism ASAP and then rush with an overwhelming unit. There isn't one, so numbers really count. And the AI does numbers. The liberalism race is still worth winning, of course, but it won't make up for ignoring other aspects of the game.

Don't neglect your navy either. You may be going for Space, but the AI will invade, and invade pretty hard. Much better to kill their units on boats than on dry land.

I say 1NW to grab the gold. Leave that far clam tile for another city to the east. 5 food tiles and 1 precious metal makes an awesome capitol. Just think of all the scientists you could run in this city with Caste System. You might want to switch them to merchants later and build Wall Street there.

EDIT: I mean move the SETTLER 1NW.

You guys may want to clarify the city positions you're suggesting--are you talking about a position relative to the Settler, or relative to the Scout? Sorry, I'm easily confused. It's a sign of my ever-advancing age.

Maybe make it clearer by referring to a position relative to one of the resources, like the gold or the corn.

Quornix said:

What settings did you use to make the Big and Small map?

Click to expand...

Sorry, I should have mentioned that. Not that I understood them, but these are the choices I made in generating the B&S map:

• Normal Continents
• Islands
• Islands Mixed In

Validator said:

This seems like the best plan to me. I would move the scout NW and then W to check for more resources in that area just to see if a different location makes sense . Gold in your capital's fat cross should more than make up for not settling until turn 3.

I guess this start makes up for the last game, although I think the map scripts may have been adjusted somewhat as I've seen some really good starting positions in BTS.

BTW I didn't see any mention but I assume you're using the 3.02 patch.

One problem with settling NW is that it is a very high food site but it is not fresh water so it may be hard to get enough health to support the massive population that site can support

Click to expand...

1 NW (of the settler) gives four different health resources in the fat cross. With a granary and harbor, that's +8 health. That should keep him going for a while And without moving the settler, those crabs are probably going to go to waste (unless there happens to be silver and/or furs on that [probable] island).

Looks like the (probably) island to the north is covered in Sisiutil's favorite terrain: forested tundra.

Ah, good to see this up and running.
I would agree with the general consensus to move the settler 1NW. Interestingly, that city will have every resource obtainable w/ fishing in the BFC. Seems like that could later translate into some tasty sushi...
EDIT: I also just realized that Peter starts with mining, meaning that gold mine could be up and running very quickly if you settle 1nw

It's not an easy call but I'd settle 1NW of the settler.

Advantages:
-gain early gold mine (outweighs disadvantages IMO)
-gain crab resource

Disadvantages
-lose rightmost clam
-lose 1 turn
-destroy a forest upon settling

Great! I have been looking forward to the first BtS ALC ^^

I agree with settling NW of the settler. You'll lose the fresh water bonus, but I think the expansive trait makes up for that

For me there's no question: in place, then Crabs/Gold.
Plains hill!
Fresh water!
Forests!
Cottaging the capital is situational, don't worry about it!

If I were you I'd save the forests for a National Park, or at least Ironworks, but probably a National Park for ALC flava. I'm confident you can pull it off, and for me the fun factor would be very high. (In fact, I must try it in a shadow game!) You could mine the hills if you must, but resisting the urge would again be very delightful to me. (I would not trust Forest Preserves to spread forests back to previously mined tiles, unless they're surrounded by 3+ other Preserves.)

You're looking at something like 24 specialists with a National Park.

So many Possiblities, It's difficult to choose which starting location is best so I'll post the Pro's and Con's of each location.

Settler's Current location.

Pro's
-Keeps all Forest Tiles within FC
-has Lake for Extra health
-Don't lose any turns not settling

Con's
-Loses out on Gold and Crabs
-Overlap with 2nd city

1E of Current Position

Pro's
- Less overlap with 2nd city
- Health bonus from lake

Con's
- Lose's on 1 Calm and other Resources (eg-gold)
- Loses 3 Forest Tiles in FC
- Loses one Turn
- Tiles in Far East unknown.

1NW of current Position

Pro's
- gets gold in FC
- Far East Clam City MAY have less overlap with Cap.

Con's
- Loses 5 Forest Tiles in FC
- Loses Health Bonus from Lake
- Loses One Turn

kniteowl you muppet, it is not possible to settle 1NE, unless of course sisiutil has devolped the ability to settle underwater cities.

Click to expand...

Oops my bad, don't worry I fixed it.

Scout's Current Location

Pro's
- Has Gold
- less overlap with 2nd city

Con's
-No health Bonus from Lake
-Loses Far East Seafood Resources
-Loses 2 turns
-Loses 6 Forest Tiles in FC

I haven't included how many unimprovable tile you may have gained or lost but I Doubt that matters much.

My Person Preference would be to settle in place to keep all those nice forest tiles for wonder construction, but it's really up to you.

Obvious Tech choices Fishing => BW (For whipping and Chopping) then Arg to improve the corn then possibly AH to Locate horses depending where Copper is.

I'd build a Scout First to get those Goody Huts then a Fishing boat or worker depending when you finish Fishing tech. Although I'd Switch straight to Work boat once Fishing Tech finishes, even if the worker is incomplete, you can always go back and whip the worker later with all the food resources nearby.