ALC Game 17, Take 2: Russia/Peter (BtS)

futurehermit said:

There once was this guy who suggested that Ragnar would take feudalism off of the oracle and to rush asap instead of settling another city.

And everyone laughed at him and said to settle the other city first.

Then the game went in the tank after Ragnar took feudalism off of the oracle.

Now here is the same guy strongly urging to settle 1NW to have an uber capital and despite having some fan support this time, he is still being ignored

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Probably the most persuasive argument in ALC history. As soon as I read it I knew we were going 1NW.

slobberinbear said:

1. Iron working! If you don't get it, Julius will. If no Iron, then Animal Husbandry.
2. The Wheel. To hook up the iron to city #2.
3. Sailing, if you can get a sea route to city #2 quicker than by road. Plus, you'll want Lighthouses and Galleys anyway.

Then Sword rush the bum! If you can manage to get a spy out to nerf his cultural defenses, so much the better! I'd get about 8 swords and 2 axes and storm Rome.

I like the city location in the middle of the island, near the pigs. Good food, production, and a river. It would be an excellent second city (if iron is there) or third city.

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to 3, no galley this early please, too expensive.

to spy, not enough EPs this early to support a revolt, usually 450 EPs for that.

another vote for iron working then.

worker can chop another fishboat (total 2) and a warrior before size going to pop 3 then build-chop the settler to claim iron.

iron working->wheel->agri->AH. myst has to be some where, but i strongly recommend that place iron in the first ring and waste no time producing metal units

Round 2: 3175 BC to 2625 BC

This was a very short round, but as I said from the start, with the new BtS expansion pack in place I'll be playing short rounds in order to glean as much advice and debate about employing the new game features as possible.

I started off by changing what I was researching, since no flasks were yet committed to the Wheel and could transfer easily to a strategic tech:



Yep, Iron Working. Staking it all on one throw. If I didn't have the gold, I doubt that I'd be doing this.

Once a second mine was built on the other exposed hill (which, if you'll recall, I started before Bronze Working was done) I decided to do some pre-chopping to hurry a Settler.



I kept working on the Work Boat and sent it to the fish tile when it was done.




The 1 commerce from the tile was actually enough to shave a turn off of Iron Working, if you can believe it:



I finished the Warrior, sent him west, and started work on a Settler. I considered letting the city grow to 3 pop by building a Work Boat or a Warrior for a few turns, but I really wanted a Settler to be ready to go the turn that IW was finished. I don't know if that's optimal, but I don't muck about with numbers like a lot of you do. It just felt like the right thing to do.

I found out that I'm flush with cash--for now:



I think I may have claimed all the goody huts on the island thanks to my Scout. Maybe someone can check the original save in World Builder and tell the rest of us.

When Iron Working had 1 turn to completion, the Settler was available to whip for one pop thanks to two chops I'd done.



With the fish, I should be able to grow the population back quickly enough, though I had to work the gold for one more turn to get IW done; working the fish would have meant another turn. Since I'm building a Settler for that turn, losing the food wasn't a big deal. I switched to the fish on the following turn, once the Settler was complete.

On that next turn...



Yes, you can see the iron, can't you? And of course it's the only source on the big island. Here's a better look at where it's situated:



Smack-dab in between me and Caesar, but still within reach. As it's the only source of Iron, I obviously have to keep it out of the Roman's hands, so it takes priority over the copper. Besides, iron enables all of three of the classical era units, while copper only enables two.

By the way, the tenuous position of the iron makes me feel justified in rushing the Settler out the way I did. I just hope Caesar isn't going to beat me there. He still hasn't switched to Slavery, which means he probably hasn't researched BW, but I wouldn't be surprised if he has his first Settler ready to go.

I'm considering three--well, really, two--possible iron town sites.

I dismissed 1N of the peak on the tundra; I think the crabs up there would be better left to a possible city on the northern island. If there's a happy resource of some type up there (I'm hoping for furs or silver and would be delighted to have both), it would be a welcome food source.

So that leaves two possibilities. The obvious one, it seems, is 1NW (again!) of the iron. It will claim that fish tile with a border pop. On the other hand, this wastes that other fish tile due west, as Rome won't be able to work it either. That's a shame, since it's coastal and the +1 commerce is nice in the early game. This is, however, the best short-term location as it claims the iron without a border pop.

The other possibility is 1NW and 1W of the iron on the seaside plains hill (there's your +1 hammer, guys!). This city would be able to work both fish tiles, which would make up for the otherwise very poor tiles in the area. It's a better long-term site, but the obvious and very big down-side is that it will need a monument and a border pop to claim the iron.

If we agree that I should do an early rush against Rome, 1NW is obviously the better choice, sacrificing long-term food for the immediate advantage of claiming a choice capital and having the island all to myself. But if I go for the better long-term site at 1NW & 1W, then I think I may also end up delaying an attack on Caesar, possibly until Construction, since he'll likely beat me to the copper and yes, the BtS AI does build Axemen, which would counter my own Axes and Swordsmen.

I myself am leaning towards 1NW to get Caesar out of the way ASAP. That city would be founded on the 4th turn from now. Having my sole rival gone and the island to myself seems to outweigh the necessity of founding a mediocre city. But I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks.

Here's a look at the capital. I did gain some overflow from the whip, as you can see, which will hurry the Work Boat along once I'm working the gold again in 3 turns.



And here's a look at the entire island--a slightly more complete look now that my Scout has explored all of it. The main thing he revealed was that crab tile near the northern island. I'm thinking of sending him SE next--there are a couple of ocean tiles E of the pigs that need to be revealed. Who knows, the way this map looks so far, there could be more seafood over there!

How long would it take to link the new city and hook up the Iron as this would be a factor in your choice of site. Obviously you can't start building the shiny new units until both things have occured.

Sisiutil said:

Okay, so it sounds like Work Boat - Warrior - Settler as a plan while researching IW makes sense. The Settler will attempt to claim the copper, but failing that, be ready in time to claim iron.

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Start pre-roading to your Copper city b4 you've even started building the settler. A) so it moves there fast, B) so your cap gets copper the turn it's hooked up so that C) you can rush the crap outta Rome ASAP! There's a long chunk of River so just road from: Moscow > river, river > 2nd city. Pre-roading will shave probably 5-10 turns off the time it takes you to get axes rolling (and the faster the better IMHO)

I say 1NW of the iron. It takes forever (at least for me) to get that border to pop, considering you also have to build the mine, connect the road, and start pumping out enough units to take Rome. This is a game where an early rush is very optimal, leaving you at your free leisure to continue your southward expansion in the belief of manifest destiny. Get that iron hooked up ASAP.

TRJS said:

How long would it take to link the new city and hook up the Iron as this would be a factor in your choice of site. Obviously you can't start building the shiny new units until both things have occured.

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This is a really good point. You need to research the Wheel before you can even start the road, so it's going to be a while before you can hook up anything.

Of course you'll also have to research Mysticism after the Wheel if you need a border expansion. But it should be fast with the gold being worked. And you can chop the forest from the hill to speed the monument.

I don't know that you'll lose all that many turns, and you will gain a second fish for the city which means 2 more specialists that can be worked.

Remember that this second city is going to be founded much earlier than normal for ALC games.

Sisiutil said:

I'm considering three--well, really, two--possible iron town sites.

I dismissed 1N of the peak on the tundra; I think the crabs up there would be better left to a possible city on the northern island. If there's a happy resource of some type up there (I'm hoping for furs or silver and would be delighted to have both), it would be a welcome food source.

So that leaves two possibilities. The obvious one, it seems, is 1NW (again!) of the iron. It will claim that fish tile with a border pop. On the other hand, this wastes that other fish tile due west, as Rome won't be able to work it either. That's a shame, since it's coastal and the +1 commerce is nice in the early game. This is, however, the best short-term location as it claims the iron without a border pop.

The other possibility is 1NW and 1W of the iron on the seaside plains hill (there's your +1 hammer, guys!). This city would be able to work both fish tiles, which would make up for the otherwise very poor tiles in the area. It's a better long-term site, but the obvious and very big down-side is that it will need a monument and a border pop to claim the iron.

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My own inclination would be the plains hill 1N/2W, since as you said it would be a much stronger production site in the future with 2 fish. Consider that you'll need an obelisk (oops I mean monument) to claim the fish no matter where you build (so mysticism should come after wheel, if not before!) Meanwhile you can build a warrior or barracks or whatever you like in the new city, and chop the obelisk (oops monument) as soon as it's available.

It will take at least 14 turns to build a road between your cities; Sailing will connect them immediately of course, but if you're going to war you want a road no matter what. How soon are you planning to attack Caesar anyway?

Be sure to scout the northern island with the work boat before using it.

1N 2W would be a monster costal production center. I would go for that. Maybe go Mysticism->Wheel? That way you can get that culture building asap, and have all your workers building roads/mine as soon as possible.

EDIT. Imagine adding the maoi statues to that 2W 1N site. I smell hammers.

Take the double fish site, even though caesar's border pop will take one of the fish away. It's the best spot, I was eyeing it before the iron showed up. It will even take care of Rome's gold allowing Rome to focus exclusively on being a GP farm later on. It needs a border pop, but with the forrested plains hill and the city square, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. This of course means mysticism, but I'd go with The Wheel first to get the road going. The downside is you'll have an unconnected city waiting for The Wheel and Mysticism with little to do, but the upside is your expansive and the city has the tiles to build a worker with the bonus while it's waiting. And you definately need more workers.

To go against the crowd, I'm not so sure about the rush. If you get the iron city, there's really nothing to be afraid of, and with the circumstances (border pops and all) i think you might wanna think twice about crashing your economy with just two cities and forcing a rush out. I'd like to see a 3rd city up; the spot 4S of the original starting location looks good (civseta's pink, post #128). It's a good location with mines, forrests for chopping swordman and food in floodplains (well, farmed floodplains). I mean, If you get the iron city you sit right on top of Rome, so i don't think you'll have too much difficulty taking Rome with a surprise attack first, and then moving to copper, and so on. Even if iRome gets to 60% defenses swordsman can still do fine, and it's not on a hill.

Sisiutil said:

Round 2: 3175 BC to 2625 BC

So that leaves two possibilities. The obvious one, it seems, is 1NW (again!) of the iron. It will claim that fish tile with a border pop. On the other hand, this wastes that other fish tile due west, as Rome won't be able to work it either. That's a shame, since it's coastal and the +1 commerce is nice in the early game. This is, however, the best short-term location as it claims the iron without a border pop.

The other possibility is 1NW and 1W of the iron on the seaside plains hill (there's your +1 hammer, guys!). This city would be able to work both fish tiles, which would make up for the otherwise very poor tiles in the area. It's a better long-term site, but the obvious and very big down-side is that it will need a monument and a border pop to claim the iron.

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If you have the only iron on the continent, then Rome is going to be a pushover. A chopped monument will take very little time and having a Fish for population and Iron for production means that you will be able to build a barracks and start cranking out swords ASAP. You won't be able to work the Iron from turn if you settle 1NW 1W, but you wouldn't really be able to do so anyway. Rome is relatively friendly right now, so they make a good trading partner until you crush them and if they do build a city to take the copper, then just start your war at that point to make sure they can't build Axemen.

A little extra time spent before an invasion means Rome will have more time to build as a city without any extra real defenses.

Seriously, what's he going to do? Archer you to death?

The long term benefits of picking up an extra fish are enormous. Aside from the fish, you have Plains, Plains Hills and, um... more Plains Hills. This city will be an outstanding production city if you have 2 fish. If you have 1 fish, it will be a drag on your economy whose only purpose is to claim a piece of Iron before Rome does.

Why not get Iron AND a great city? You just have to wait another 20 turns (5 to build monument and 15 for border pop).


You're going to need a good bit of those 20 turns anyway to get the Wheel to let you hook up that resource and get another Worker and work boat out of the capital to get the city moving.

Heck, you won't even have to spend time building a Work Boat in Irontown since Moscow can do it for you.

But if I go for the better long-term site at 1NW & 1W, then I think I may also end up delaying an attack on Caesar, possibly until Construction, since he'll likely beat me to the copper and yes, the BtS AI does build Axemen, which would counter my own Axes and Swordsmen.

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It is entirely possible that you might wait until Construction, but don't forget that you can pillage and there's nothing keeping you from building a sacrificial warrior or two to fogbust now and make sure that Caesar doesn't keep any copper that he thinks about claiming. All you need to do is get a single border pop from Irontown to claim the Iron.


...one more thing. I'd bet that Caesar plants a city on the plains hill 1N of the mountain between Pigs and Gold (South of Irontown's potential locations) before he tries to claim the copper. Copper is on a desert, so the only choices for Copper town are 1W of Copper to grab the Fish and have enormous overlap with Rome or 1S of Copper to grab Wheat with the metal. In either case, it will be an easy move to send a warrior or two in (or a Sword or two if he delays even a tiny bit) to pillage the square before he gets the required road and mine.


This is the exact opposite situation from the previous game. Your second city is important and you have Ragnar's advantages here. Go ahead and pick the city that can really make a difference to your empire in the long run. 1W and 1NW for 2 Fish driving 4 Plains Hills mines. That's 16 production ASAP, not even counting the Iron bonus.

Using Moscow as a point of reference, Caesar's 2nd border pop is imminent and will claim the 1NW/1W site's fish, rendering it a less desirable choice imo.

If it weren't for that, 2 South of the Iron might merit consideration as well. It provides 1 flood plain, 5 forests for chopping, 3 irrigable plains, and 1 GOLD!

With one more space it might have been just the ticket to get the Swordsmen up and running in a big hurry. The irrigable plains would grant hammers and commerce and the 4 hills would be available for windmills on down the road (assuming mines on iron and gold of course.) Sadly the flood plains won't be available quickly enough owing to Caesar's aforementioned 2nd pop, but it would be there once he has gone to his eternal reward. As is though there probably wouldn't be enough food to make it worthwhile.

Is there some early angle I'm overlooking that might win the culture war with Caesar and make the floodplains available?

another vote for 1n 2w, it just looks so good, and you'll be able to build the Maoi there to test it out

EDIT: it may claim the fish, but once we take out Ceaser it wont matter

Wow, two rounds in a day? Nice trend.
Tough question about the Iron city placement. I would place it 1N 2W, but my concern is that you may get beaten to the site by those crafty Romans. If you could get your warrior up there and check out how soon the Romans will get there, I think that could make your descision easier.

The more I think about it, the more 2W 1N makes sense. It really wont take much longer to get it up and running.

Steps:

• Switch to Mysticism, then wheel, and then sailing(might shave a few turns off when you get iron to capital)
• Settle at the 2W 1N site
• Have your only worker build a mine on that plains/forest/hills 1 S of that site
• Start building a workboat there(work the plains/forest/hills for now) but once mysticism is done switch to monument. This should be near perfect timing to when your worker chops down those trees. So then next turn you'll have a monument. Finish building workboat
• In your capital, once the workboat finishes, work on another worker
• As soon as wheel is in, start roading, and as soon as borders pop build mine
• Final step, kill ceasar

i forgot you could use sailing to connect your cities, i would definately follow above

Save the iron city for later. You'll want it 2-W, 1-N of the Iron (for future strength) and that's too long to wait to hook up the iron. Send a spare warrior or archer to stand on the iron.

Just go for the copper city (1-E of copper) and use axes for now. The benefit of this city is the it's in about as decent a location as it can be for future use, but when it's border pops you'll have enough culture to be able to move right beside Rome in 1-turn from the city. Also note, with no river between your axes and Rome to penalize the city raid either so it's as fast a capital rush as you can do with Melee units pre Great Artist bombing. It's also got a big river leading a fair distance to Moscow, and with the wheel delay this will further speed teh rush up. A faster rush is better than a slightly stonger later rush (which he'll likely have copper for since the iron hookup will be too slow to deter him settling).

The cultured desert peak will let you see exactly what's in Rome. You know he'll build a settler and send half his garrison of archers with it, the AI always does. Since you (hopefully) refuse his open borders since you don't need them to peek at his defenses he'll be forced to settle north. You wait a turn or two so they can't get back in time and bam, DoW and stand on the steps of Rome probably against 2/3 archers. Then send any healthy units to go stand on the iron to make sure he can't hook it up. When your force is healed crush his last city and that's probably his obituary.

I on the other hand am very sure about the rush. No need to waste time building settlers while Julius hooks up copper and mixes archers with axes. The BTS AI is no pushover and Julius is quite a bit military inclined. Anybody has an idea how much effort it takes to take a city defended by axes without sieges. Julius may never get praets but even with axes alone its gona go our vs his . And obstructing the hooking of metals with a warrior is a desperate measure as declaring sets Julius on military mode and he has archers.

The main thing about settling 1NW of the iron is rushing a couple of swords quickly to ensure Julius gets no metal. Other than that no significant amount of time will be gained if it comes to making 6-8 swords to take Rome. Maybe 10 turns or so, mostly because we have to connect the cities and probably develop them a bit to, researching relevant techs at the same time (wheel/mysticism).

If mysticism is researched first in 7 turns, we can use the idle now worker to prechop the monument and complete it 3 turns after mysticism. The main delay will be the one till borders pop. Still there is a decent chance the first sword is out in time to forbid the copper city, he has grown 2 pop in Rome during the last 20 something turns thus hasnt yet started his settler.

I lean towards settling W+NW on the plains hill, if everything is timed right the result will be roughly the same, even if we have to declare just to pillage his copper.

But keep things focused develop Moscow until the iron is hooked and make only swords afterwards.

Getting sailing after mysticism / wheel makes sense too, and not just to connect cities earlier, its the next step to grow all these sea cities.

Errrrr, why copper?

There are 2 reasons to get iron over copper:
Iron allows you to build more units
Romes UU needs iron(and thats the only source)

I think we have a little more time then everyone thinks to rush rome. He doesnt have any metal in his city, I doubt he has a settler by now, and his production in his main city doesnt look that great. The worst we might see is 2-3 axes. just my opinion.