ALC Game 17, Take 2: Russia/Peter (BtS)

Normally I'd side with you completely, but I am trying to run a specialist economy here, which means food for specialists rather than cottages. Nevertheless, even in a SE, you need some cottages. And since it looks like I'll be largely living peacefully rather than warring, meaning a lack of point-stick research, it may be wise to head for a hybrid economy rather than a pure SE. Thoughts?

Even if you have a hybrid economy, I would not say you want to have a hybrid GP farm. At this stage of the game for any city, the farm vs. cottage decision costs you 1 food and buys you cottage commerce. The 1 food is half a specialist. That half a specialist is less important in cities that don't produce many GPPs (they don't get you any more Great People on the margin). However, in your GP farm, specialist points are more valuable since they will in general be cashed in to produce Great People. (they do get you more Great People on the margin)

I would generally vote for farms in my GP farm and for cottages most elsewhere. If you get the pyramids then specialists are more valuable in all cities. This would generally turn the tide for me and make me go farms instead of cottages almost everywhere...

GS
 
ALC_17_Dot.JPG


This is close to the others and the last thing we need is another dot map, but here's mine.

1 is the best production spot on the map. It only has 30 food w/out city square, so it'll need 5 biology farms (or watermills and farms) to get to 20 pop, but no other tile can match it's production.

2 can be debated. I have it giving the wheat to the horse city, but then i have the horse city built late and so it might be better to take advantage of the wheat earlier. I expect Moscow and Rome to do most of the great people heavy lifting, but maybe this city could contibute a person or two with wheat. But as I have it, it's fairly well balanced with pigs covering the mines and a floodplain and river to help with whatever's desired.

3 for copper and to help with Rome's food. More on rome later.

4 for marble

5

6. The wheat gives it more balance but you could just as easily move it 1S, give wheat to the pigs and farm to work the mines. And 1S has more mines.

7 and we're filling up space, but if you farm it to a high pop it could bring alot of trade

and white will probably never be built.

Rex 1 & 2 out with 3 not far behind, timed with St. Petersburg's forge. 4 a little before the GL and the rest at your leisure.


I just don't see a cottaged capitol in this game; validator's blue is just too low on food. All it can work is cottages making it very production poor. If you want a cottaged capitol than the best sopt is 2S of the peak, with wheat and pigs.



What does everyone think? Should Rome be farmed or cottaged? I'm leaning towards farms and making it the GP farm myself.

Farming Rome would make an INSANE GP Farm...it can potentially reach size 37 after Biology. :crazyeye:

Rome has way too much food to handle in the early game so I wouldn't expect to be using its farmed floodplains anytime soon. Working four of its seafood supports pop 12, and you still have a while to get your happiness cap that high. As far as the cottages i think I'd just keep them (and maybe cottage all of it), using the bronze city to work the clams and some floodplains. Maybe Rome is where the capitol goes.

Can you still try for the Great Lighthouse? It'd be nice to have that and the colossus in St Pete for a mid-late GM
 
I agree with you that your priorities to connect are the copper, marble and two gold resources. Then hope for barbarian state, so you canuse your settler for somewhere else. It's almost as though you're praying for the company of another civ on your island. As long as it isn't monty.
 
Some thoughts on my dotmap based on some of the comments:

I thought about the city 1W of the copper but thought that it would take too much food away from Ruska, which would keep Ruska from becoming the powerhouse that it could otherwise be. Depending on what the eventual plans for Ruska are (NE specialist heaven running 15+ scientists, GT whipping post, ???) this could be a major loss. But I failed to take into account the fact that copper has to be hooked up relatively quickly to speed up Colossus. With that in mind 1W of copper is a definitely needed.

I thought about moving red dot and orange/brown dot 1N but decided against it. Trading the wheat for the floodplain in red dot is food neutral now, but is -1 food after CS. Considering that this city has a lot of negative food tiles losing 1 food isn't insignificant. But even more important is the effect of the other tiles that would be gained/lost by the move. In the north you would gain 2 plains tiles, a plains hill and a peak. In the south you lose a grassland hill, a forested plain and 2 riverside plains. With levees added in BtS riverside tiles are even more valuable than before. Also by moving the city N you would be settling on a forest.

All in all a significant downgrade to the quality of the city if it's moved North IMO. Of course it would leave the wheat to be worked by the horse city which is a definite improvement there. But I still see horse city as being pretty marginal overall and not worth settling until CS is available or imminent. Red city has the capability to be a powerhouse and I wouldn't want to weaken it to make a marginal city better.

With that being said, I'm not really sure how to specialize red dot. It could be cottage spammed, or it could be developed into an IW city with watermills, workshops and lumbermills. :confused:

I just don't see a cottaged capitol in this game; validator's blue is just too low on food. All it can work is cottages making it very production poor.

I have to disagree with this analysis of that location. It's not low on either food or production for a cottage spammed city. Working 4 cottagged FPs brings the city to +6 food. The gold mine lowers it to +4 which is still enough for reasonable growth. The food surplus stays at that level until it grows to work the 7 grassland cottages. The surplus doesn't decrease until you start to work the cottaged plains, but it has enough food to work 15 cottaged tiles plus the gold. If the two grassland hills are windmilled they can also be worked. That leaves only the plains hill and the desert unworked.

For production it has 3 hills in addition to the gold mine. These can be worked any time production is needed (at the cost of slowing growth). Also with bureaucracy it will get a +50% to hammers. It's clearly not going to be a production powerhouse, but it will have no trouble building needed infrastructure/multiplier buildings. I've had plenty of commerce cities with less production.

One other point in this regard is what to do with its forests. I think it's too late to make a try at chopping Pyramids, but they could be used to chop another wonder. Parthenon might be a good choice, as building it in this city avoids the Artist GPP contamination in specialist cities. HG or the new Mausoleum of Maussollos might be another option. Statue of Zeus might also be an option just to keep it out of the hands of an AI that you will want go to war with. But if the forests are not needed for a wonder they can also be used to speed production of infrastructure if they're chopped when necessary.



On another point I would not convert to Hinduism now. You may meet more than one AI and they may not all be Hindus. If you meet an AI with a different religion they'll immediately dislike you and will likely refuse OB which will prevent you from exploring further. It's also a good idea to get the lay of the land concerning religions before deciding which religion to follow.
 
It might not necessarily be too late to go for the Pyramids. I wouldn't necessarily risk it, but the last game I played the Pyramids weren't built by the time the AI's had muskets in their cities. It seems they don't necessarily prioritize it if they don't have stone or don't 'plan' on nabbing it.
 
Btw research Masonry Right after MC, you'll need it to hook up MArble eventually anwayz plus It'd very annoying to find out you can't wonder rush Pyramids with you're GE and when you finally finish the tech someone else got them before you lmao!
 
Sisuitil,

I don't think you have enough food for a SE here.. but I could be mistaken. if you find good tech trading partners it might be worth it.. atleast you have 2 good spots to run scientists in to atleast augment your research.

cottaging now will pay off much better in the long run. do not forget that maxed riverside cottages can produce 2 hammers now with the levy. those riverside resourcless city suggestions on the dotmap aren't bad ones if you cottage them early. production wise they'll suck but will turn into decent production centers once you get to the industrial era.

masonry soon would be a good plan.

the newest dot map shows yellow city #1. I know it would be tempting to do otherwise but if you can manage to leave it with just cottaged or farmed flood plains and roads it will be a bombshell late game.

why? national epic and national park. once you start putting down forest preserves the city will go NUTS. if you farm the flood plains it can support 18 pop and get 10 or 11 free specialists.

I used worldbuilder so you can see it, I had to plug some extra happy in so the city wasn't freaking out. they're all just citizens but you can set it up to be a batch of spies or engineers or whatever you want really.

just consider for the looong game. it takes a little investment... but makes a CRAZY GP farm late game. (well any city with this national park/ national epic combo does if you do it right)
 
did some one mention the great lighthouse? i think it worth trying for your economic benefit. we could change to research mansory and then continue MC, so we can build the GL in st peterburg, and settler in moscow and ruska.

cottage ruska for now to aid expansion. a farm can be immediately done, but towns are not. ruska has too much food rightnow even shared with the copper-fish city.

remind u to have one unit near the flood plain in the blue city so that the stupid barbarian won't settle a city on that flood plain. and it can't be recovered.
 
First of all, let me congratulate you on the unification of the savage roman tribes to form the glorious city of Ruska.:goodjob:
The AI might not have handled the war optimally, but you werent excctly lucky on the combat rolls. So this war shows off what an early rush really can feel like, ending the 1st war by 1000BC rather than just begining to build units.;)



What does everyone think? Should Rome be farmed or cottaged? I'm leaning towards farms and making it the GP farm myself.
Is this a trick question, or are you having regrets about scrubbing the Romans entirely even as a memory?:D
Seriously, go ahead and pillage Ruskas hamlets for the 50 or so :gold: they are worth regreting only you didnt get to pillage at least one of them as a village!
Yes, Ruskas has too much food this early and the :) cap is low but GP ponints are more worth it this early and the :gold: is gona fund your important short term research MC/masonry contributing more in your economy than by creating dilemmas. You just cant whip infrastructure and have 3 specialists librarys(2)+forges(1) while working the cottage.

By the way immidiate prioriies should be two things:
  1. Exploration
    Definitely make at least one more boat to explore north and send a couple of swords with your galley.(They ll fare better against barb archers;) )
    You could easily come across a passable city site with furs or silver this north. Plus meeting multiple opponent is likely on a big-small map and you want as big a chance at any extra gems or especially ivory as you can get through trades.
    Not to mention they are gona speed up your research even without trades. Last but not least, your long term strategy should be adaptive depending on who excactly shows up.
    I keep hoping for at least a couple BTS only civs.:D
  2. Pyramids
    The AI does not prioritize them unlike most other early wonders and for good reason, he is not the best at deploying SE and the cost enormous :hammers: reducing his growth. For us however the :) bonus and +3 :science: from represantation in the BCs still are godsend.
    Either a GE from a forge or chopping coul work. A GE will let you grow better as building a forge will tie one city up much less than Pyramids themselves.
    I am not neceserily worried about somebody having finished both GW and SH via stone, they are reasonably cheap and most AI will attempt them ASAP provided they have 2 cities on line.

I would dread even considering going for :culture: rate induced :) during peacetime because eiter of the above didnt work out even partly.:eek:
We may intend on a SE. But 3 gold mine give quite a bit of :commerce:, plus so will a capital deployed probably in the gold/FP site.
 
Both capitals should run max specialists. Other cities should be commerce/production. Having an uber national park city as a 3rd city is also fine. One of your high-food cities should be your scotland yard city later and should run max spies. If you nab the kremlin there that is an additional 2 spies.
 
Hum, now I'm torn.
I have bought BtS and played this one out as my first game.
I don't know if I should suggest things or not...

Let me just say that if you complete the quest before having the great library, all you get is +2 beakers in moscow :(.
 
Spying is a good way of getting techs and as the only way that your oponents can get spies to you, give their ships the Nelson touch.

Looking foreward a little there's the glorious privateer. You get cash from blockades every other turn, I think. Send them out in pairs as the A1 will attack if he has enough caravelles. He seems to churn them out like hot dogs once you start to blockade.

This game has the makings of a great naval struggle.
 
Yes having a solid navy based largely of privateers early (can attack/pillage/blockade with no diplo penalties or war implications) is a great idea in this situation. A solid navy in general is going to be important though.

Food for thought: Spies can be powerful late game. Put all of your espionage toward your space race competitor. Then send mass spies (by mass I mean 20+) to your enemy empire. Things you can do: 1) Pillage towns completely in 1 turn for cheap; 2) destroy production and science buildings; 3) sabotage coal, iron, aluminum, etc.; 4) sabotage production; etc. Basically, you can really mess your space race competitor over ensuring a reasonably comfortable victory. Be sure to have spies stationed in your cities, etc. to ward off the AI's efforts.
 
Hi everyone,

I've played the next round--a much longer one this time--and have much to tell.

Unfortunately, Photobucket is down for maintenance this morning. :cry: So the update will have to wait.

This looks like it's going to be a very fun game. Very different from the 1st attempt with Peter.
 
Hi Sisiutil! I don't have any particular strategic suggestions to offer (a moot point, since you just said you played the next round), but I just wanted to let you know that this game/thread is definitely helping me getting a grip on strategy.

I eagerly await your next update! :goodjob:
 
no. wall can be added to your capitol even if it is your only city :D

sisuitil, take a look at the save I left you, see if it is worth it long term.

NaZ
Just before I get into the update, I have seen your posts but haven't looked at the save. Sorry, but I'm trying to avoid spoilers, so maybe if you tell me in more detail what's in it and why I should be looking...?
 
Hi everyone,

I've played the next round--a much longer one this time--and have much to tell.

Unfortunately, Photobucket is down for maintenance this morning. :cry: So the update will have to wait.

This looks like it's going to be a very fun game. Very different from the 1st attempt with Peter.

Why don't you use Image Shack?
 
Round 5: 1050 BC to 370 AD, Part 1

A much longer round this time, but I wanted to get several things accomplished. Not everything you all set out for me to do at the end of the last round is done yet, but I believe I'm well no my way.

Early in the round, I loaded my Scout onto my lone Galley and set it off exploring to the west, seeking the founder of Hinduism and anyone else it could find. First off, I discovered that there is indeed seafood near that iron source:

ALC17b_370ADa_01.jpg


Very tempting, but as you'll see, there are other far more tempting offshore sites.

Meanwhile, back home, the barbs started showing up. God, but these things are stupid. I mean, check this out. What I set up was, essentially, the Civ equivalent to a slaughterhouse chute. The barbs were intent on heading to Moscow from the vast fog to the southeast. I put one Axeman in each of the forests to either side of the corn farm, which I new would attract them like flies to honey. This meant that the barbs were sitting ducks (is that too many metaphors to mix?) for my Axes. They avoided attacking the difficult target of an Axe on a forest tile and instead chose to go after a (supposedly) easy pillaging target, not to mention a capital protected by a lone warrior:

ALC17b_370ADa_02.jpg


Morons. Oh well, stupid barbs = free and easy XPs, we always say. Both Axes earned their Shock promotions very quickly, though I haven't seen any barb Axemen and, at this point, I think they're unlikely. The map doesn't always cooperate, but this is a trick I'm going to try to remember in future games.

I dropped the Scout off on the Western continent to do some exploring and soon ran into the first neighbour:

ALC17b_370ADa_03.jpg


I got an OB agreement with him right off the bat. He founded Hinduism and will likely stick to it for most of the game, and I think it would be good to stay on good terms with Gandhi. Especially considering who the other neighbour is (same continent, further south):

ALC17b_370ADa_04.jpg


Good ol' Toku, as useless as ever. I should point out that in my 2nd off-line BTS game, I manged to get Toku up to Pleased status without sharing a religion with him--just by selling him old, obsolete techs. But that's unlikely in this game. Tokugawa is likely to be my worst enemy, as you'll see.

Back home, I got started on the expansion we discussed.

ALC17b_370ADa_05.jpg


Novgorod would, of course, assist with the Colossus once its copper mine is on-line. Once Metal Casting finished, now that I had contact with Gandhi and new he had contact with one other civ, I decided to pursue Alphabet. I figured I might as well see what techs on the path to Literature and the Great Lighthouse I could get out of him.

I also got news about various wonders being built. Some of you were suggesting the Great Lighthouse, but that was completed very early in the round:

ALC17b_370ADa_06.jpg


However, as you'll see much later on, I have another somewhat similar wonder in mind that may help out quite a bit.

I founded another city, which will likely, at a later date, become the capital:

ALC17b_370ADa_07.jpg


I'm cottaging this city. I left the cottages in place around Rome--sorry, Ruska--for now, though I didn't add any others. Ruska is indeed destined to become the GP farm, so watch for those cottages to eventually be plowed over in favour of farms. For now, I need the cash.

Once the Forge was finished in St. Petersburg, I got the Colossus under way:

ALC17b_370ADa_08.jpg


Notice I started running an engineer. This actually added a turn to the build (since I took him off a 4 hammer mined plains hill), but the idea was to generate a Great Engineer whom I would use to complete the Pyramids. The downside was that this meant throttling back my research by putting the scientists in Moscow and Ruska back out in the fields and fishing boats to guarantee that I got the GE as my first great person. Yes, the scientists grumbled, but what do they think this is, a democracy? Not until after Nationalism and Constitution, you lazy pencil-necked geeks!

My intrepid Galley was unable to continue its exploration of the western continent's southern reaches because, surprise surprise, Tokugawa refused to sign an Open Borders agreement. So the ship swung around to the east, found another continent due south of my large island, and met another civ:

ALC17b_370ADa_09.jpg


Interesting--I've met 4 of the other civs so far and all of them were around in vanilla! Not even a Warlords leader in the bunch yet, let alone one of the new BtS leaders. Oh well, there's 2 more to go, and I'm guessing that they'll be more recent additions. Of course, I would have preferred just about anybody to Toku.

In 260 BC I finished researching Alphabet:

ALC17b_370ADa_10.jpg


I haven't built a Spy yet, but I'm looking forward to it so I can map out the truculent Tokugawa's terrain. After Alphabet, I went after Aesthetics, heading towards Literature and the Great Library. I was hoping to get Polytheism from Gandhi. He wasn't willing to trade it right away, which is why no tech trades occurred immediately. Toku, of course, wouldn't trade techs if his life depended on it (and, ironically, it often does). Mao, meanwhile, apparently had contact with no one but me, so he wouldn't trade techs either! I don't know if it's just this game, but I'd heard Alphabet and tech trading were not as high on the priority list as they used to be.

Then another random even occurred, and not a good one:

ALC17b_370ADa_11.jpg


This is why I now ensure I have a little gold in the treasury. The first option would have resulted in unhappiness--the pop-up was unclear as to how long it would last--and the last option meant the revolt could continue. Having your capital off-line this early in the game is crippling, so I didn't want to let that be a possibility. The -1 pop is easy enough to recover.

I then founded the marble city, again planning on pursuing the GL:

ALC17b_370ADa_12.jpg


As you can see, my Swordsmen were out fog-busting with a vengeance. I even decided to fog-bust the horse area--too many hills, it just seemed too likely that the barbs would found a hard-to-take city down there. They did found a city to my east, out near the yellow city site on Validator's dot map. Notice I said "near". It's on the hill 2S of the crabs, a far from optimal site. It'll have to go. At least it should give me a chance to earn a Level 4 unit so I can build the Heroic Epic.

I still hadn't completed the first quest, for 7 libraries--I didn't even have 7 cities at this point--when another quest appeared!

ALC17b_370ADa_13.jpg


Like the previous quest, this one seems right up my alley. With this map, I'm going to need a strong navy, so the reward from this quest should be helpful. Heck, 7 Triremes won't even be enough to protect every seafood tile I have, and St. Petersburg was perfectly capable of churning out boats like there's no tomorrow. Unfortunately, having missed the Great Lighthouse, I won't have that reward option available.

Well, enough waiting with the tech trading. Gandhi still wouldn't budge on Polytheism, but he finally had a few other worthwhile techs to trade:

ALC17b_370ADa_14.jpg


It was a tough choice, choosing between those two or Mathematics. In the end, with the marble sitting there and a drive for the Great Library imminent, I decided that I needed Masonry more. Archery just made it worth my while. I'm not big on Archers, but once I get Feudalism, Longbowmen are great for raising your power rating and intimidating an opponent.

On the next turn, I completed my first wonder:

ALC17b_370ADb_01.jpg


Yay! I'm not working too many of the seafood tiles, since my happiness caps are still quite low, but the ones that I am helped out. And I might get a Great Merchant in the mid-game from this. The only fly in the ointment would be getting a GM now. Oh, they're great to have, as we saw in the Kublai Khan game, it's just that I'd really like that Great Engineer for the Pyramids, only now the GE points were being polluted by GM points... so I was nervous.

So what happened? Did I get a GE for the Pyramids? And what about the Great Lighthouse? Looks like Gandhi could have a head start on me there. Stay tuned!
 
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