ALC Game 17, Take 2: Russia/Peter (BtS)

Actually, I'd disagree, the AP isn't necessary. All you need to do is pay Gandhi to go to war with Toku, and spoil their relationship (which is already bad). At that point, Toku isn't going to vote for Gandhi, and you're not going to vote for Gandhi, and considering how many cities you have with Gandhi's religion, he won't have the votes to push through a win with just his own votes.

Bh

^^Agreed
Even if he has the votes to get elected resident he wont be able to push through anything without your and Toku's votes.

I would definatly want the palace built somewhere Hindu though, or you might have to deal with resolution being hoisted upon you from the other side of the world because you have one confusion city.

bulid the AP in Rostov, the tao city.

i think that would work...

Bhruic said:

Actually, I'd disagree, the AP isn't necessary. All you need to do is pay Gandhi to go to war with Toku, and spoil their relationship (which is already bad). At that point, Toku isn't going to vote for Gandhi, and you're not going to vote for Gandhi, and considering how many cities you have with Gandhi's religion, he won't have the votes to push through a win with just his own votes.

Bh

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I was thinking the same thing--it sounds like a waste of hammers I need for other things. If I play my cards right, I should get much larger than Gandhi and be able to win the leadership of the AP even though I didn't build it. Very similar to becoming UN Sec-Gen without building the wonder yourself.

It's a good point, though; if I think Gandhi's going to build the AP, it makes my own growth (and potential colonies) very important.

On that note: I'm reluctant to turn Vladivostok into a colony. It's pretty close to my own territory, and it has 2 fur resources--one for my own happiness, one for trading. I'm not sure if a vassal has to hand over >1 of a resource? And even if they do, can you then trade it to someone else?

I think there are better areas for colonies, such as the resource-poor islands to the SW. And there's territory to my east which has to be explored as well. It seems to me like the best spot for a colony is a distant area with resources you already have. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

You seem to be on top of the situation as far as research is concerned, and thats likely the most important aspect in this game.

I wouldnt trde techs and maps like you did and probably bulb less on the way to liberalism myself. One bulb should have been enough considering the various war tech are much less of a priority. Toku hasnt launched a naval invasion simply because each troop would cost him half a galley as well.

But hey the game is supposed to be fun above all, and i am glad you are enjoying yourself bulding wonder after wonder.

The Apostolic Palace is kinda costly, thats why i suggested burning that GE on it. Better move than HG IMO. The point isnot to avoid others getting an early diplomativ victory and locking it on Hindu. Horseloads of fun can be had by spreading Hindu just a couple of times into everyone you meet, and then messing their relationships around. You know forcing them to war and when one side loses a couple cities force peace and give them back. The point being you force eveyone into stale wars that hinder their growth. The new propositions are much more fun than the Warlords UN ones.
Well, maybe Ghandi will build it for you, maybe not.

Eitherway, keep focusing on research and naval superiority even after the privateers golden season is past. By the way id rather start their era early and get a biger lifespan, as well as an early shift of the AI towards frigates further hinderin their reaserch than waste time to get steel and build drydocks. You ll get those eventually but your privateers are going to wreak havoc longer if you prioritize them. Just tackle AI one or two at a time starting from the more advanced(i.e. the more rich).

The best reason for a colony and i mean a real colony of several cities is to deny competing AI land thats to expensive to keep maintenance-wise. Regardless of what the game claims colonies are hardly worth making over just a couple of resources.

Just a bit more constructive (hopefully) criticism:

No courthouse means no spy points. You really ought to build one in every city.

A pair of timeres through Tokus land would give you circumnavigation bonus way before actually bulding a caravel.

There is not a lot of point in creating a colony unless you have 4 or more cities on one landmass that is not your main landmass.

The main reason to give a group of cities independence is to free you from high maintenance cost. As I understand it, the extra penalty that is included in BTS to give you this motivation is related to a multiplier that is equal to the number of cities on the foreign continent.

That may have not been clear. Example:

A city on a two tile island will cost the same in maintenance as it did in warlords. Four cities on 4 two tile islands will cost the same as they did in vanilla.

The same 4 cities on one island will cost significantly more. Because of this is is possible to expand in an archipelago juts like in vanilla, but in a 'new world' situation the cost will become too much and the colony will need to be broken away. I actually really like this feature and think it is more historically consistent and allows water maps to remain playable.

I did some WB tests to verify this. Basically It grows exponentially. With one city you have only regular city maintenance. When you have more you get another cost called 'colonial expenses'

In the one quick test I did it jumped like this:

2 Cities = 0.36 gpt
3 cities = 1.52 gpt
4 Cities = 3.50 gpt

This is a flat cost per city it seems and it is added to city maintenance however it only appears when you mouse-over it, not in the total on the city screen.

I have started a thread on this here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5789155

popejubal said:

...and with Espionage, you can see what techs they are currently researching (especially since you'll be building Courthouses). That means you can hold Liberalism off until the very last moment and potentially grab something truly extraordinary (like Biology, Physics or Steam Power). Just research up just a couple of beakers remaining and then you can grab it at your whim.

Click to expand...

I liked this idea so much, that I went ahead and did it in my shadow game, picking up where Sisiutil left off.

I got...



I stand by my suggestion.

Porphrius has got it about right, in my opinion, be like Nathan Bedford Forest, the firstest with the mostest.

I still think you need the A. P.

I know you can't do everything but this is where your great experience comes in.

Take a look at Haika's game, Brick by Brick. He spammed Privateers like they were going out of fahion. His game is in this section, I don't know how to do links. I suppose I should learn, the amount of posting I'm doing.

dazman92 said:

bulid the AP in Rostov, the tao city.

i think that would work...

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Don't you need to run the state religion of a certain reigion to build the AP of that Religion?

no point in building a Taoism AP if it's gonan waste a turn of Anarchy.

kniteowl said:

Don't you need to run the state religion of a certain reigion to build the AP of that Religion?

no point in building a Taoism AP if it's gonan waste a turn of Anarchy.

Click to expand...

If it's built during a golden age, thanks the the MoM there's no anarchy.

Vladivostock is hemmed in by Gandhi who's doing a bit of hemming himself and attacking with his feared culture. I think you can stay on your path to liberalism.

I would have liked to see Tokugawa fight Gandhi who at least shares the same island rather than a foe he can scarcely reach.

Those privateers built early would be able to make hay against all your rivals and could make a real mess of Mao's coastal trade and find the missing civs.

With your army, workers and navy fairly small, you could switch to pacifism and really turn out those great people.

Scarredroman said:

If it's built during a golden age, thanks the the MoM there's no anarchy.

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True but Sisiutil doesn't have any free GPs and even if he did they'd be better off being used for other things like light bulbing building shrines, culture bombing or settling Vladivostock.

And waiting for the Taj Mahal would be way too long, he'd be well in the Res Age and someone else would of built it before then.

popejubal said:

I liked this idea so much, that I went ahead and did it in my shadow game, picking up where Sisiutil left off.

I got...

Spoiler :

Radio.

I guess everyone knew that I could grab Liberalism any time I wanted, so they just ignored it. Since I could see what techs they could research just by looking at the Tech Trade screen, I only had to worry about spending spy points on the AI civs who could research Liberalism. I was able to see what most of them were researching anyway since I had put 10% into spy points for a few turns. Civs who could research Liberalism were researching Chemistry instead. Wierd.

I stand by my suggestion.

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That's pretty cool. I routinely wait on Liberalism until I see an AI has both Education & Philosophy. It's dangerous because sometimes I get beaten anyway when I go for Biology or something. With the new espionage system, this makes it a lot more effective!

All this talk about building the AP...do you really think it's possible to get? Ghandi's had Theology for a long time and we don't even have that tech yet.

jerVL/kg said:

All this talk about building the AP...do you really think it's possible to get? Ghandi's had Theology for a long time and we don't even have that tech yet.

Click to expand...

Yes we do, we got the tech from Gandhi through trade.

Round 7: 670 AD to 1090 AD

Okay, first off, Kniteowl, there is no such construction in the entire freakin' English language as "would of". It's "would've", a contraction of "would have". Ya gotta stop rattlin' the former English teacher's cage, kiddo.

There, now that I've gotten that off my chest, on to the round.

I started by taking both deals that were suggested by Haika. I traded copper to Mao for wine, sheep, and 4 GPT. And I also got Gandhi to declare war for a few measly pieces of gold:



Somehow I think the real-life Gandhi would have been more difficult to persuade. But I could be wrong. We all have bad days, after all.

I know several of you were advocating the Apostolic Palace, but Gandhi was way ahead of us. Check out how close the election was:



It looks like in Civ as in life, possession is nine tenths of the law. Gandhi won, I suspect, because he built and owns the darn thing. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'd had more pop that him, I would have had more votes and won, right? Just like the UN? Does the election for presidency of the AP come up again, like SG of the UN? I'm learning as I go, here.

I was reluctant to trade techs with Gandhi, but sometimes the deals were just too good to pass up. We had discussed how theatres could be used to deal with happiness issues, and I needed one particular tech for that:



Still, I was getting more restrained with him. I was building a couple of Caravels and anticipating meeting up with the 2 remaining civs, with whom I could hopefully backfill techs instead of with Gandhi.

I got my next Great Person in Ruska. Remember how I said if I happened to get a Great Engineer rather than a Great Scientist I wouldn't complain? Well, I'm not complaining:



Yep, I burned him for the Hagia Sophia, for two reasons. First, more points towards a Great Engineer, along with the Pyramids and the Hanging Gardens. I'm running only scientists for now, but I may run and engineer later on to see if I can up the chances of a GE once Liberalism is done. Second, as I've mentioned several times, I've had trouble slipping in Worker builds as I've had so many other priorities. The HS' boost to the existing Workers' efficiency will help in that regard--fewer Workers working smarter, not harder.

Keeping Mao happy with me was becoming challenging. He doesn't like my Hindu buddy:



Still, trading old techs to him for a little gold and his map perked him up to pleased soon afterwards. And since Gandhi has the Apostolic Palace, I might be able to use this to my advantage. I'm thinking it might be worthwhile to spread Hinduism to some of Mao's cities so he can vote with me on the AP resolutions--he's not likely to convert to Hinduism since he founded Confucianism, and if he keeps liking me better than Gandhi, he's unlikely to vote the Indian an early diplomatic win.

Unfortunately, Mao beat me to that wine/fish city we'd scoped out:



Oh well, you can't have everything. I sent the Settler and Crossbow NE to found the island city that will claim the fish and pigs. Perhaps the Moai Statues should go there? The city will have a plains hill in its fat cross that can be mined, so it won't totally suck for production.

I then pulled an aelf-inspired trick. Gandhi had Engineering and I wanted it, but I didn't want to trade a bunch of techs to him for it--especially ones that would help him get the circumnavigation bonus, or Liberalism. So I researched Engineering for a couple of turns and then got a much better deal:



This is one of the very few games I've played where I researched Feudalism on my own; usually I trade for it. Maybe that's a sign of my lock on the tech lead?

Another random event occurred, this one espionage-oriented:



What the heck, I took the risk. I don't think I got the diplo hit, at least it wasn't showing up when I point to Mao. And before the end of the round, I was able to see what he was researching. This also reminded me that I haven't done much with one of BtS' big new features, espionage. So before the end of the round I'd built several courthouses and also raised the espionage slider to 10% so I'd have some intel on the other civs.

Speaking of whom, my Caravel headed east with a Scout on board and I finally encountered our mystery guests:



Good ol' easy-to-please Bismarck. This trade got him up to Pleased, which meant he was willing to sell me his world map for 85 gold. Why Currency? So he can generate more gold to buy other obsolete techs from me, of course!

And nearby, Bachelor #2:



No, he's not too useful for techs either. Looks like he and Bismarck, both Buddhists, are cuddly.

Getting both of their maps gave me the circumnavigation bonus--just barely:



When I won the circumnav bonus on the next turn, I wasn't sure how. I had to look closely at the map to see that the international date line there just zig-zags enough to qualify as a complete circle around the globe. Weird, eh? Well, it meant my Caravel and Scout were able to pull an about-face and head back west to explore that big black area. They found some good-sized islands there, and two tribal villages which popped for gold. Not bad for a day's work.

I was still warring with Tokugawa, even though it was a phony war (no sign of a naval invasion) and he and Gandhi had made peace. (Toku managed to take one of Gandhi's cities, though, about which I was perversely pleased.) Gandhi decided to make up for his earlier over-eagerness to make war by using his position as the Apostolic Palace president to make Toku and I kiss and make up. I'd been checking and Toku was unwilling to give me any thing other than a peace treaty, so I voted yes when the resolution appeared:



Meanwhile, with Crossbowmen now guarding most of my cities, I felt I had enough of my Swordsmen gathered to take out that barb city. I wanted to get a Level 4 unit out of it so I could build the Heroic Epic. I guess I could have micro-managed a series of promotions--but instead I staked it all on one throw:



...and I won! Sweet! I built the HE in St. Petersburg, of course, my best production city and coastal for ship-building to boot.

After the GE I earned a Great Scientist in Ruska (where I built the National Epic) and used him to lightbulb most of Education. It had 7 turns to go, and I finished the tech on my own on the last turn of the round (I finished Guilds first, though):



Coincidentally, I earned my next Great Scientist on the very same turn. He's in Ruska, awaiting instructions:



He'll lightbulb Printing Press, but since I have a clear and growing tech lead, lightbulbing techs in order to trade them is less attractive than usual. I could start a Golden Age with him, but I think it's a little soon for that--GAs are better with a reasonably mature empire, which is why the Taj Mahal is a well-timed wonder. I think his best use is to build an Academy in Ruska, where I'm running 6 scientists plus the 3 free ones from the Great Library and the Library quest.

Okay, I don't usually go in for Civ math, but let me give it a shot just this once. Ruska is pulling in 56.9 base research points (54 from specialists, 2.9 from commerce). It's currently being multiplied by a library (+25%) and 2 monasteries (10% each) to 82.5 research points per turn. An Academy's +50% research will bring in another 28.45 research points (settling the GS for another 9 base flasks per turn, in contrast, will only give me another 13.05 after the existing multipliers do their work). The cheap University (courtesy of the Philosophical trait) I can build in 10 turns (I'll switch out the Barracks, I haven't started it yet) will add another 14.23. Grand total research in Ruska after 10 turns: 125.18. Liberalism will require 3139 flasks. I'm currently contributing 185 per turn, giving me Liberalism in 15 turns.

And that's where I get lost, because 3139/185=16.96 or 17 turns. How does that work? This is why I don't play this game with a calculator.

Anyway, the Academy will bring me up to 213.45 research points per turn. Sounds worthwhile. It trims 2 turns off Liberalism, but my calculations.

A state-of-the-world post will follow.

You are likely failing to include the research bonus for having the pre-requisite techs

And maybe also the 1 beaker "you have a city" bonus.

The State of the World, 1090 AD

First off, a look at the map:



I have a Caravel and Scout exploring those islands to my east. I dunno, those look like a good area for a colony.

Speaking of which, just out of interest, I went into the Domestic Advisor looking for the button to turn Vladivostok or Yekaterinburg into colonies (not that I'm going to). I didn't see it. Is there a minimum distance requirement? Or a minimum number of cities needed?

Besides a possible colony in the east, I'm also considering a fishing village or two on that northern island. Just to keep the AI out of there, and to try to keep a monopoly on crabs. I don't know if that's worth the effort, however.

One thing that might be worth the effort, however, is a distant city here:



1 NW of the crabs claims that tile and 2 furs. Too bad the silver is so far away, and without food handy. Given the distance, though, a city or two here could be expensive. Possible northern colony? Wouldn't Vladivostok, on the same land mass, become part of the same colony?

The Domestic Advisor:



Lots of civilian builds still, but St. Petersburg, with the Heroic Epic now in place, is starting to focus on military builds. Once I get the horse city on its feet I think it will become a second military city.

Civics:



No changes there. I still have some infrastructure to go. Now that I have Education, I want to get 6 cheap Universities built quickly and then put Oxford in Ruska (it's 2nd and last national wonder). So I'll want Organized Religion's help for a while. I'm still able to generate Great People fairly quickly.

Can you believe the Parthenon hasn't been completed yet? Should I take a crack at it at this late date?

Foreign advisor, relations:



Mao and Gandhi are currently my two buddies, but they're not exactly fond of one another:



So I think it would be wise to cultivate Bismarck as my other partner in triangle diplomacy, keeping Mao and starting to cut back Gandhi, who really is my sole rival as well as best friend (ain't that always the way it goes?). Free Religion from Liberalism would help there.

Speaking of which, check out which religious civic Gandhi is running:



Obviously he built the Shwedagon Paya. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but won't running FR throw the Apostolic Palace out of whack? If so, why is he doing it? For the research benefits? Mind you, he has four religions (he just finished researching Diving Right). So maybe it's for the happy bonus?

Resources:



Too bad none of the islands, thus far, contain happy resources. I'd be all over that if one of them did.

Techs:



Woot! It's nice to be the tech leader for a change. I can pick up Music from someone later, I'm sure.

Religion:



I gotta get Christianity spread over to Ruska and Moscow for the additional Monastery. I'm also hoping Gandhi will spread Islam to Vladivostok before I research Scientific Method, and I'll do the same with that faith.

Victory Conditions:



So no one's overwhelmingly ahead in any regard, and that's good news for me.

Power:




Go Bizzy! Look at that. Then again, he's living next door to Shaka. Even if they share a religion, I'd be unit spamming too.

I'm still behind here, but not too far behind. The "splendid isolation" of my island has thus far protected me. But I can't rely on that forever.

Demographics:



...and I'm still #1 in GNP! Go figure. Being #1 in production is, as I said at the end of last round, excellent, better, in my experience, than #1 in GNP.

Also, it looks like I'm pulling ahead of Gandhi in population (Bismarck is the largest civ on the planet at this point). That bodes well for any further AP activity--though will there be any at all if Gandhi sticks with Free Religion?

Now, just for interest's sake, here's a look at the islands to my east:



I suspect that's three separate islands--and check out how the southern one has a peak blocking access from one part to the other. Yeesh. Oh well, if I put a colony there, it won't be my problem.

No happiness resources to be seen thus far, unfortunately. Now, how would this work for a colony? The northeastern island looks like it could support 2 cities. If there are 2 on the southern island, would it have to be a separate colony? What about the smaller western island?

At any rate, Astronomy from Liberalism is looking more and more attractive, so I can get Settlers over there. Oh, and, uh, there's a big island further east:



Yeah. A source of stone. And it's j-u-u-u-u-st out of Shaka's current reach. But once the borders of Ndonka-whatsit pop, the Zulu can get over there. I'm thinking that while I research Liberalism, I should build 2 or 3 Settlers, get Astronomy from Liberalism, build a Galleon and head over there. Then my new vassal can contribute stone back to the motherland. You never know when it will come in handy.

Anyway, I think I'm well on my way to an early space ship victory thanks to the success of the Specialist Economy. As I said before, this is a lot more fun than the previous attempt at a Peter ALC! I don't mind getting a smooth ride this time, it gives us a chance to play with the new BtS features and go a little wonder-happy. Still, Tokugawa is a concern. Even if he's behind in techs, he can compensate with unit spam.

Long timer lurker, first time poster in an ALC thread. Thanks so much for doing these instructive, informative threads!

Regarding your question about colonies:
When you're able to break off a colony, you'll have a Victory Fist (the same icon that gives you the Victory Conditions screen, a fist raised upwards) in the bottom right hand corner of the Domestic Advisor. Clicking that will then give you a pop up menu with the various colonies you could break off. Cities will be pre-grouped as the AI thinks best -- you won't be able to mix and match which cities to break off.

To found a colony, I think you need at least 2 cities on their own little island -- I remember founding it with two before, but never with one. You can, of course, found them with more.

I'd counsel founding all your cities on the eastern islands and when you're satisfied with them, you can break them off into a colony. Also, you can 'Liberate' cities via Trade to your colony/vassal later if you want to add onto a colony, so if want one colony to manage all your island affairs and the Domestic Advisor's Victory Fist wants to make them into two, just make one and then liberate the others to that colony.

And one more small comment, perhaps for a future ALC -- if you could focus on your early builds -- specifically what your workers are doing early and why, that would be very helpful to me. If this is already covered in a previous ALC, then no worries -- I'll keep catching up.

Well, this game looks to be a lock at the moment. Gandhi won't attack you, and will be an easier target for the warmongers as well, which will slow down his research a tad. The biggest suspense might well be seeing whether there's a CtD or infinite loop problem if you go for a Space win-- I've had both keep me from actually finishing a game so far , though I'll try to get the last 7 turns done tomorrow for a first entry on the scoreboard.

Or will Shaka ever catch up tech wise? Haven't really had him in a game, but all the traditional warmongers seem to stay further behind than before, but he might be an exception. Maybe.

If you are thinking of building a colony, check out this thread.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=236729

As it shows having a set of islands with two cities each, your maintenance costs are severely reduced as compared to one island with a whole bunch of cities.

I think the colonial system is a lot more worth it when you are talking about 4 or more cities on one landmass.

The other thing about colonies is that you can demand any and all resources from them at any time and they have to give it to you. I have never seen a negative diplo for this nor have I seen a colony get angry and split like a regular vassal might do. in that way they give you a lot more control