ALC Game 18, Take 2: Spain/Isabella

4 is the magic number for making colony expenses "significant", but even at 4, it's not at all bad if you have a courthouse and a couple of decent trade routes.

After 4, it gets very expensive very quickly.

You're right on all counts. When I said it wasn't the magic number, I meant one shouldn't avoid taking a useful fourth or fifth city just because of the maintenance costs.

...and speaking of colonial expenses, when either Ragnar, Joao or Holy Rome roll around, it might be interesting to try out an Archepelago. Colony maintenance is irrelevant pretty much everywhere on an Archepelago since the islands aren't big enough to put more than about 4 cities on any one and each of those three has a very good UB for an Archepelago map.

Not sure about the other two, but Ragnar might be too strong on an archipeligo map.

On Warlords I could win those games quite comfortably on Immortal (my usual level is Emperor). Maybe, now the AI knows how to conduct its naval affairs (inc. invasions) a bit better, we might face more of a challenge. But choosing the best kind of map to suit our civ's strengths seems a little cheesy.

Big/Medium & Small should be alright, though.

Domination on Continents is extremely difficult, however. Getting enough cities on the other continent to make domination possible would cripple your economy beyond all measure. I'm not sure domination is even possible in this current game since the other continent is so much bigger than this one. Pangea, Archepelago and the Pangea-like "special" maps are the only ones that could really have a possible Domination win, imho.

I agree generally, but I think it should still be possible to win by domination on this map.

If we pay very close attention to keeping the costs down, using vassals to claim land on the other continent whilst keeping the islands for ourself, then we should be able to meet the % required in one final war (after which the costs won't matter).

But on a map like this domination really does mean domination - since vassals' land is worth 1/2, you're not going to win unless you can bring almost the whole planet under your heel.

So if Sis wants to take the Space route, then don't think any of us could blame him. It would be mighty interesting, though, to see how things worked out if he did try to sate Izzy's lust for mastery.

Edit:

@MrFelony

The (potential) problem is that by leaving Sury and Gilga to tech away whilst we bear the expense of setting up a beachhead, we may get left behind. Knocking down the weaker civs one after another is often a recipe for letting the stronger civs build up a commanding lead.

But, as I said, that risk is the one I'd take if going for dom. - #3 is just too bold a move for me.
 
So i just tested this out on my continents domination attempt just to make sure that it'd work. I vassalized a smaller civ (Julius Caesar ironically enough lol) and just gave back all the cities I took from him. not only did this cut off ~ 120gp from my upkeep maintainance, it also lets me take advantage of JC's 80% culture for domination purposes. So what i'd suggest is go with one of the weaker civs, vassalize him, then return his cities and base your attack from there.

@ winston. I agree. in the above game i was talking about, it took me from 1800 to 1950ish to finsih conquering my continent since the world power was on there and had a total of 18 cities :/. this set up the other civs to get ahead of me techwise, but i found similar success with siege that Sis did (is it wierd that i call you sis? :lol:). I have to go look back at the maps, but if there is a civ that can be conquered in a very short time, then they'd be the best to try the above strategy.

OT:
When JC capitulated to me, he gave me a city that had the kremlin AND three gorges dam in it :eek:
 
So i just tested this out on my continents domination attempt. I vassalized a smaller civ (Julius Caesar ironically enough lol). just give back all the cities you take from your vassal. not only does this cut off all your maintainance, it also lets you have their cultural boarders, while not interfering with your own since they're your vassal. So what i'd suggest is go with one of the weaker civs, vassalize him, then return his cities and base your attack from there.

Good plan, though I would be a little worried about being unable to build any units in the new world. If we find ourselves outgunned at any point, the whole thing could quickly spiral out of our control. Keeping at least one or two cities to churn out up-to-date troops would be wise, imo.

Once we get airports, I believe we can airlift units direct to our vassal's cities (is this right?), and so could liberate the cities we kept back to the vassal (though we might want to hold onto them for their land %).

ps. As I understand it, SP has no effect on colonial maintenance - it only affects distance maintenance.
 
Too bad the Patch isn't out yet because they cap colonial maintenance to twice the distance maintenance, I wonder that works under state Property when Distance maintenance is zero does that mean Colonial maintenance is also zero?
 
ya, at my point in my game, almost all 31 of my cities have airports lol and my WP city produces level 5 troops...but anyway JC is actually slightly more advanced than I am (has mech. infantry, which i am just getting) because during my 100 turn war I ran vassalage instead of Free Speech. Sis could try gifting him all of his military techs (that's what I do when i Know a vassal can't break out of my control) that way not only do you have a beach head, but a viable partner in war. while it would also look tasty to just liberate your enemy's cities to your vassal (which i'm not sure if you can do), we'd have to make sure we didnt accidentally free him :lol:. the only bad thing is you can't upgrade in vassal territory, so it would be a good idea to keep one of his best cities.
 
Too bad the Patch isn't out yet because they cap colonial maintenance to twice the distance maintenance, I wonder that works under state Property when Distance maintenance is zero does that mean Colonial maintenance is also zero?

Urgh, I certainly hope not. That would make State Property as overpowered as it is on Pangea and Islands ATM.
 
Too bad the Patch isn't out yet because they cap colonial maintenance to twice the distance maintenance, I wonder that works under state Property when Distance maintenance is zero does that mean Colonial maintenance is also zero?
I imagine it still calcs distance as normal under State Property, it just throws it out when it checks civics. I'm sure it won't be affected...otherwise State Property would be OP...well...hmmm...OP again or more OP?
 
Round 8: 1710 AD to 1838 AD (62 Turns), Part 1

The round started with an event oversees which, while not entirely unforeseen, complicates our plans for world domination:

ALC18b_1838AD_01.jpg


Yes, Washington became Sury's vassal. That means attacking the other land mass means attacking one of two big blocks: either Khmer/America or Sumer/England. Sury remained friendly this round while Gilgamesh dropped to cautious; he now regards Sury as his worst enemy. And by the way, Gilly is doggedly pursuing his chosen victory condition. We'll see which one it is much later, but some of you might be able to figure it out based upon the screenshots coming up.

I used the Great Scientist I had in Madrid to lightbulb part of Scientific Method. I was reluctant to trade techs with Gilgamesh, who is my closest rival in score and technology. Fortunately, my former enemy wasn't above trading with me:

ALC18b_1838AD_02.jpg


I shed no tears for the Great Library. It served me well in this game. But now I was trying to produce a Great Prophet in Madrid by running priests so I could build the Christian shrine in Barcelona. Having its 2 free scientists and their GP points vanish was, therefore, a blessing (pun fully intended).

Once I had Steel in the bag, I started going after "prize" techs, ones that would give me some sort of additional reward, like a free Great Person. The next one gave me a free Great Spy, for example:

ALC18b_1838AD_03.jpg


I'm just getting used to the fact that Communism does that, and that Liberalism is its prerequisite tech. I'm finding myself hoarding Liberalism a little more now so I can be first to Communism and the GSpy.

The Great Spy I settled in the capital:

ALC18b_1838AD_04.jpg


I know a lot of people go on about Scotland Yard, but this seems like the best immediate use of the GSpy to me. With the palace and a courthouse, the capital is producing 6 espionage points. Scotland Yard would double that to 12, which is what I get from the GSpy. Granted, later buildings like Jails, Intelligence Agencies, and Security Bureaus add to that, but those 3 research points (6 under Representation, which was just around the corner) aren't to be sneezed at. If I get another GSpy, that one will build Scotland yard in the capital.

Speaking of Representation...

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This didn't seem like an especially dangerous trade. Thanks to his unexpected tech fiend master, Augustus, Justinian has a tech lead over most other civs, so I doubted he'd be trading it anytime soon. Granted, I wanted to build the Kremlin, but given Justinian's mediocre land, I doubted he'd be able to beat me to it. Besides, I was still building up a navy to take him on, so a few more turns of peace weren't unwelcome. And the additional research from representation, along with the jails, came in handy.

With State Property now available, I changed civics:

ALC18b_1838AD_06.jpg


I haven't run Free Market yet in this game. We'll have to discuss whether it would be worthwhile or not.

I managed to produce that Great Prophet I wanted in Madrid, and used him to boost my economy a little further:

ALC18b_1838AD_07.jpg


Following that, I began spreading Christianity a little more enthusiastically to my cities. I haven't spread either of my religions overseas, though many of you suggested it. That's a consideration for the next round.

I finally had enough Galleons and Frigates built and loaded to feel ready to invade the Byzantine Empire. First off, I had one of my spies deter espionage:

ALC18b_1838AD_08.jpg


It now occurs to me that I should have had a spy do this to Augustus as well, because I was declaring war on him too. But I got off very lightly in the espionage department--no poisoned water or additional unhappiness--so I think the water helped. I sunk any Roman or Byzantine ship that came near my territorial waters.

I delivered the bad news to Justinian...

ALC18b_1838AD_09.jpg


And then closed in on Hsung Nu, obviously a former barbarian city which was, as you can see, lightly defended.

ALC18b_1838AD_10.jpg


I removed its defense bonus with my Frigates and then decided to attack directly from my ships. I started off with a sacrificial unit, a Treb that was in the middle of being built when I finished researching Economics and made the UB obsolete:

ALC18b_1838AD_11.jpg


The idea there was to increase my recently-upgraded Cannons' chances of survival.

ALC18b_1838AD_12.jpg


My Cannons did all survive; only three Cannon attacks were needed to bring the defenders down to the point where no more collateral damage attacks were possible. As in the war against Rome, this greatly increased the chances of success for my City Raiders, even when they faced an amphibious attack penalty.

ALC18b_1838AD_13.jpg


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I razed the city. I didn't want to hang on to any cities just yet, and besides, I thought the city would be better placed 1 tile north where it could claim a couple more land tiles to work.

Unfortunately, because Justinian is Augustus' vassal, declaring war on Rome brought back a lot of war weariness, as well as leading to other happiness complaints such as fighting against our brothers and sisters of the faith and wanting to rejoin our homeland. Yadda, yadda, yadda. Time for some tough love:

ALC18b_1838AD_15.jpg


Yes, it was time to crack out the whip again. BWA HAH HAH!!

To be continued...
 
Round 8: 1710 AD to 1838 AD, Part 2

As I mentioned, I wound up whipping infrastructure in several former Roman cities, including Rome itself:

ALC18b_1838AD_16.jpg


Which is unfortunate, I know, because I want all that population in order to work as many tiles for the Ironworks as possible, but look at how many unhappy citizens there were! Bloody peasants. You don't want to work? Fine, you don't have to work another day in your miserable little life.

Ah, much better.

I decided to keep the other Byzantine cities, which weren't outstanding but were half-decent. The two southern-most ones were both on hills, making them easier to defend, but that also meant I preferred to land my forces to avoid the amphibious attack penalty. Fortunately Justinian's capital had a forest one tile to the north--very convenient.

ALC18b_1838AD_17.jpg


None of Justinian's cities had wonders, but Mediolanum did have a couple of prizes: two, count 'em, two settled Great Merchants.

ALC18b_1838AD_18.jpg


I continued to get a good amount of use out of the UU. Conquistadors pretty much pwn any pre-gunpowder units, even Pikemen, thanks to their bonus against melee units:

ALC18b_1838AD_19.jpg


However, I did get a bit too cocky with them and lost a couple going after units in the open field. They didn't lose their initial attacks, but Justinian did throw a couple of Catapults at them and then let Musketmen finish them off. D'OH!

And then Liz showed up with a somewhat surprising trade offer, seeing as how I'm not exactly her favourite person:

ALC18b_1838AD_20.jpg


I may live to regret giving her a military tech, but then again, just about everybody else on her continent already had MT, so I was glad to get something for it.

I also managed to obtain another handy-dandy tech from Sury:

ALC18b_1838AD_21.jpg


And what do you know, I just happened to have 6 Banks finished, so I was able to start on Wall Street in Barcelona right away.

I also, at long last, founded the last city on my continent, the one with no resources. I had already improved most of the tiles in the area. With all those hills, it was a no-brainer to make it a production city.

ALC18b_1838AD_22.jpg


My next tech did a lot to reduce the importance of the fact that Salamanca has no food resource:

ALC18b_1838AD_23.jpg


I had made the five forests still in Madrid's fat cross into forest preserves, so I started on the National Park in the capital shortly after obtaining Biology. I was also building Oxford University in Lisbon. I had converted its cottages to farms in order to run more scientists. I farmed over two of Oporto's cottages too and converted another one to a workshop--improvements better suited for its role as the West Point city. As a result of all this, I'm pretty much running a hybrid economy now, with my smaller cities running merchant specialists if they can afford the food, while Madrid and Lisbon run scientists to speed research along. Those specialists are turning out to be vital. War weariness has forced me to crank up the culture slider, so the scientists are making up for the research shortfall that created.

Lisbon had been running merchants for quite some time, so that pretty much determined the next Great Person I generated:

ALC18b_1838AD_24.jpg


I haven't used him yet; he's sitting in Barcelona. I could use him for a trade mission again, but even after I performed a bunch of upgrades once I got Rifling, I was still able to generate a healthy amount of income each turn. I could settle him in Barcelona--it is short of food, so that would be nice in addition to the gold. Or I could save him for Sid's Sushi, though that would require switching out of State Property. Thoughts?

I completed the Ironworks in Rome and shortly thereafter, the city finished its first wonder:

ALC18b_1838AD_25.jpg


More Great Spy points to combine with the Great Wall. I may just get an other GSpy, who knows? With Isabella being Spiritual, it's easy to switch into Universal Suffrage for a few turns to purchase some infrastructure, then switch out again. That could argue in favour of using the GM for a trade mission, to finance a US infrastructure spending spree.

Several other civs had researched Democracy, so I figured I should follow suit. The Statue of Liberty is a nice wonder which Rome should be able to complete quickly, and if everyone starts running Emancipation, I'll be able to switch to it. I do still have several cottaged cities, so increasing their maturity rate might be nice.

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I got Rome working on the SoL almost immediately. Only sixteen turns to completion. Wow.

My next Great Person appeared in Seville and is largely the product of the Moai Statues:

ALC18b_1838AD_27.jpg


With all of my shrines built, there are really only two possible uses for him. Either I settle him in Barcelona, or use him to start a Golden Age. I'm leaning towards the Golden Age--I haven't had one yet in this game, and I have an empire big enough to really benefit from one. However, I'd prefer to wait until this war is over and I'm at peace again. I find I get more out of a GA during peacetime, even if I use it to build military, because I have fewer unhappy citizens and I can leave the culture slider at 0% while maxing out research.

Speaking of ending the war, I finished conquering all of Justinian's cities on his home land mass, but then I had to take out one more city further away:

ALC18b_1838AD_28.jpg


I razed it. I know someone else will settle there, but even though I'm pursuing domination I didn't think 2 tiles would be worth the extra maintenance, having to defend it, etc. Remember a city like this can't be liberated into a colony--you need at least two cities on a land mass to do that.

With his vassal now gone, I though Augustus might now be willing to capitulate. I did build some Privateers in this game after all; they've been harassing Augie, sinking his Caravels and earning promotions. So far, no Frigates have shown up, though just about everybody else can build them. Maybe it's because he can't tell that the Privateers belong to me, or maybe he is, as I said earlier, just stubborn:

ALC18b_1838AD_29.jpg


Sheesh. What does it take to make this guy buckle?

So, decision time. Do I make peace with Augie and alleviate the war weariness back home so I can switch out of Nationhood and back into the much more lucrative Free Speech, or do I send my stack south from the former island of Constantinople to finish him off?

A state of the world post will follow.
 

Attachments

Agustus doesn't give in easily. Drop the Constantinople armey on his land mass, that may be all you need to do. He probably thinks you have no troops to immediately threaten him.
 
Wipe him out. Create a colony from his remains.
 
Wipe him out. Create a colony from his remains.

Augustus is 23 turns from rifling. I agree with the wipe him out. Keep the cities. You have that GM to send on a trade mission. As for the GP, ifthe other religions have all built their special wonder, trigger a golden age. If there's a city on your target that hasn't, keep him around to build it after you've taken the city.

Augustus' little island is just where you need forces to be to attack Gilgamesh.
 
Looks like Giglamesh is going for a cultural victory (due to his slow research pace), so i guess he poses less of a threat.


Provided, of course, you capture/raze one of his culture cities.
 
Is Gilly Spiritual? If so, he's really slow techer. If not, he's in anarchy. Which means he's changing civics....
Beat down Augustus, and like Scared Roman, make that a "landing pad". Have extra untis wait there as reinforcements. If we're lucky, Washington will soon get out of vassalage, then you can declare on either Vassal or Master, since everyone hates Gilly and Washington. And they hate each other, so they're gonna be screwed. Take Washington first. Being at the north or south of a continent is better than the middle!
 
Sure is weird seeing Constantinople on a 2-tile island. That could never have happened if it hadn't been a colony.

I agree about settling the first Great Spy (as long as you don't get him really early, when infiltration is so lucrative), and using the second (if you get one) for Scotland Yard.

Oh, and there you go declaring war on someone who's pleased with you again. Sury had better watch out, seeing as he's at friendly! That must be really dangerous.
 
Auggie might capitulate once you land some troops on his island. As far as the AI is concerned, you aren't a threat to him because you don't have any units near his cities that could capture him. Land on his little island and try and see if that encourages him to surrender. If he doesn't....oh well....
 
Liz is Gilly's vassal. The city we want to take is Lndon and that's on the other side of the continent from Augie's island. The troops are there to launch an attack eventually, but morte to concentrate Gilly's attention whilst the real invasion force is buily in Madrid, Barcelona and Lisbon.

The ai doesn't usually settle a 2-tile island unless it has resources. Just because we can't see them does not mean they aren't there. I'd have kept the City. I'd have expected coal/uranium/aluminium and oil to be present.
 
The State of the World, 1838 AD

Here's a look at the map of Greater Spain:

ALC18b_1838AD_30.jpg


As far as Sid's Sushi Co. goes, I currently have 9 seafood resources (no, whales don't count). I could potentially get another source of fish if I settle a city up on that northwestern peninsula (there's now a source of uranium there for a little production, too) and four more seafood tiles available from Augustus' island. No rice, that's all on the other continent. I guess it'll be Sid's Sashimi Co. this time around.

Speaking of Augustus' island:

ALC18b_1838AD_31.jpg


If we decide to conquer it, I wouldn't anticipate changing much besides razing and relocating Velitrae 2 tiles to the north. Unless anyone has some better ideas; that western fish tile is going to waste, after all.

Just to be thorough, here's a look at the other continent:

ALC18b_1838AD_32.jpg


Conquering Augustus' island might not be a bad idea. It would make a good launching point for the invasion; troops could be landed there as part of a build-up.

And yes, I now have visibility into Sury's and Gillgamesh's cities. I may elevate the EP assignments on Liz and George so I have that with them as well. As you'll see, I learned something very valuable from it.

Domestic advisor:

ALC18b_1838AD_33.jpg


Wall Street will be done in a few turns. I think finishing off the war soon would be good. In fact, it may be a good idea to pause long enough for a Golden Age where I can build up some cash, then switch into US and buy infrastructure in the formerly-Byzantine cities. I could also use that period to spread Judaism overseas. I could finish off Augustus when that's all over and done with.

I haven't liberated the Byzantine territory yet. The colony costs aren't really that bad:

ALC18b_1838AD_34.jpg


Keep in mind that, IIRC, three of the cities need courthouses, so that will lower it further. However, I am running State Property, and if I switch to Free Market to found Sid's Sushi Co. in a few turns (after I research Medicine), then that could throw this off. If I can afford the territory, though, which I think I can, I'd prefer to keep it. Domination is easier if the territory is yours rather than a vassal's.

Civics:

ALC18b_1838AD_35.jpg


Switching to Free Speech will also raise income, but if I pursue a domination win then I anticipate running Nationalism more than FS. Also, Assembly Line and Fascism are priority techs, the former for factories, the Pentagon, and Infantry, the latter for the free GG, Police State, and Mt. Rushmore.

Foreign Advisor, relations at a glance:

ALC18b_1838AD_37.jpg


So Sury is my only friend now, but a close one.

Active trade deals:

Civ4ScreenShot0002.jpg


So here's a potential problem of going to war with Gilgamesh: he's a prominent trade partner. I declare on him and I (temporarily) lose health from the rice--not a big deal--and happiness from the wine and furs, which is. In addition, I lose the 19 gpt he's giving me for sugar. The war against him would be a long one with a lot of war weariness. Don't forget he has the Statue of Zeus, which as Scarredroman pointed out is located in London, so that city would have to be captured first, and it's kind of in an awkward spot.

Info - trade and civics:

ALC18b_1838AD_38.jpg


One potential problem with Sid's Sushi Co. is that the two biggest civs are running State Property, and a third is running Mercantilism. Granted I could use espionage to force them out, but they could always switch back. I've had civs do that to me, and it's unpleasant. Here I think my late-game economy is humming along, and suddenly the next turn I'm losing wads of cash and have to lower the science slider by 10% or even 20%.

Technologies:

ALC18b_1838AD_39.jpg


So clearly I now have a tech lead, and it's growing. Gilgamesh, despite his size, is researching at a very slow rate--did you notice that? He spent most of the round researching Communism. And look at the turns he's go left on Steam Power! More on that in a moment.

Military Advisor:

ALC18b_1838AD_40.jpg


I have a good-sized navy, but most of those Frigates are busy guarding my seafood tiles now. I anticipate having to build more ships for a cross-continental invasion.

I'm about half-way to my next Great General. I earned one in this round and used him for a Military Academy in Oporto, the West Point city. I'll probably get the free GG from Fascism before I earn my next one, and I think he should also build a MA, this one in Arretium, the other captured Roman city that has a Military Instructor. I think Seville, the Heroic Epic city, also has a Military Academy, so the next earned GG will be just for fun. I'll attach him to my best City Raider, give him Leadership, and who knows, maybe he'll earn me another Great General after that.

Victory Conditions:

ALC18b_1838AD_41.jpg


So I'm ahead of Gilgamesh in land and population but I still have a long way to go for the domination win, which I think will take me well into the 1900s and possibly beyond. But have a close look at the next victory condition and who my competitor is there.

Now look at what's going on in one of Sumer's cities, Kish:

ALC18b_1838AD_42.jpg


Don't worry about the SoL, unless Gilly pops a Great Engineer I've got him beat by fourteen turns. No, the thing to notice is culture, and the fact that Gilly's culture slider is at 90%. That's right, Gilgamesh is pursuing a cultural victory, of all things! Of the three cities listed in the victory screen above, Kish as 170 turns to go before it achieves Legendary status; Uruk has 133 (though it's currently building a Taoist Pagoda, so that number will lower soon); and Lagash has 273 turns to go. Yeah, the third legendary city is always a pain, isn't it? That's were Gilly built the Hermitage, so he's not completely out to lunch on how to get it done.

Lagash, however, is right on the tip of Sumer's southwest coast. Just a hop, skip, and jump away from Augustus' territory. So close, so easy to invade...

(Let me also take a moment to say that as time goes on I find I more and more prefer BtS' way of doing espionage. Moving a few Spies around the map in vanilla and BtS got tiresome. It's very nice to be able to devote EPs to a target and then just examine their cities at your leisure.)

And have a look at the power chart:

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Yes, I'm closing in on Gilgamesh in terms of power. I don't have the screenshot of the production graph, but in that regard it's no contest. You can see that in the next screenshot:

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See the second item? My production is nearly double Gilgamesh's. I can produce units, and highly-promoted ones, like there's no tomorrow.

So I think we're a go for the domination win, especially since we don't want Gilly pulling a cultural rabbit out of his hat and winning that way. The only question is how I should go about it. I just recently obtained access to the industrial-era units: Cannons, Riflemen, Cavalry, and Grenadiers. Do I use them as the means to take on Sumer? Or do I use them against Rome (after a brief period of peace for a Golden Age?) and then wait to take on Sumer with superior units like Infantry, Artillery, Destroyers, Transports, and even Marines, Tanks, and Battleships?
 
Looks like Giglamesh is going for a cultural victory (due to his slow research pace), so i guess he poses less of a threat.


Provided, of course, you capture/raze one of his culture cities.

Brownie points to WTBCzero for being the first to figure out what Gilly was up to! :goodjob:
 
post is too long as usual. bottom line: i emphatically disagree on one conclusion you made and its military implications, enough to give you military advice! i say never trust me about military advice but this is an exception. if we want to get a Gilga legenday, ignore Legash. his city #3 will be London. the more i look, the more i'm convinced. i promise you it's true.

Looks like Giglamesh is going for a cultural victory (due to his slow research pace), so i guess he poses less of a threat.

Provided, of course, you capture/raze one of his culture cities.

yeah he's off at the opera. at the end of the last round he HEOOHRN, he no longer does. tech rate bizarrely slow in every screenshot this round. in the 3 cities i'd use for my legendaries if i was him, he has 3 caths already, 3 caths already, and 2 caths already building a 3rd right now. after i started typing evidence, i realized i have the ability to actually look at his slider, duh on me. 90% culture. so we know what he's up to.

edit: haha obviously i was looking at the save and writing that while S was doing part 2, the state of the world! i'm impatient.

Of the three cities listed in the victory screen above, Kish as 170 turns to go before it achieves Legendary status; Uruk has 133 (though it's currently building a Taoist Pagoda, so that number will lower soon); and Lagash has 273 turns to go. Yeah, the third legendary city is always a pain, isn't it? That's were Gilly built the Hermitage, so he's not completely out to lunch on how to get it done.

Lagash, however, is right on the tip of Sumer's southwest coast. Just a hop, skip, and jump away from Augustus' territory. So close, so easy to invade...

where i said above "the 3 cities i'd use for my legendaries", i meant London is going to be the 3rd legendary, not Legash, even tho Legash has more culture atm. that's how i'd do it, and i think that's what he's gonna do ... Legash has the hermitage but that's all it has. london already has 3 caths and running 4 artists. as far as which of the two we'd rather capture, logistically London is harder to get to, as a prize tho it has far more goodies.

last edit i promise: i just looked again, i hadn't hovered over the bar ... London's 205 turns away from legendary. oh wow i'm sure i'm right about something *giggle*. never happens! what's hysterical is that London is 47% english even with the culture work he's done. i wonder if that's how he started thinking cultural victory in the first place, because he'd built stuff in london to fight back? they do fight back on culture pushes more now and i like that.

"Yeah, the third legendary city is always a pain, isn't it? That's were Gilly built the Hermitage, so he's not completely out to lunch on how to get it done." when city #3 is going to be a pain, you just drop the majority of your great artists there, don't worry overmuch about buildings. you put hermitage in city #2, since it will have plenty of buildings to double. that's how you go to lunch IMO ;). here tho city 3 wouldn't end up terribly slow compared to 2 (all assuming nobody beats him up of course). he put hermitage in there a long time ago because it showed up in the build queue i suppose, poor AI.

See the second item? My production is nearly double Gilgamesh's. I can produce units, and highly-promoted ones, like there's no tomorrow.

i'm sure you can take him. but he has highly-promoted units too. each of those legendaries has at least 1 MI.

The ai doesn't usually settle a 2-tile island unless it has resources. Just because we can't see them does not mean they aren't there. I'd have kept the City. I'd have expected coal/uranium/aluminium and oil to be present.

oh they do that all the time from what i see. they are obsessed with gathering land, they'll take whatever they can get once the map gets so full. i'm about to raze a city where the land is maybe 3 ice tiles, 2 tundra hills. no strategic resources (i can see them all), no nothing, not even seafood! :crazyeye:

* We should be able to out-tech Gilga and Sury, so long as we don't slow our economy with further wars of expansion before we invade them.

So i just tested this out on my continents domination attempt just to make sure that it'd work. I vassalized a smaller civ (Julius Caesar ironically enough lol) and just gave back all the cities I took from him. not only did this cut off ~ 120gp from my upkeep maintainance, it also lets me take advantage of JC's 80% culture for domination purposes. So what i'd suggest is go with one of the weaker civs, vassalize him, then return his cities and base your attack from there.

thinking about these 2 things together .... if in a case like ours here i end up with a tech lead that i want to keep, making a vassal out of the existing guy is better than making a brand new colony as far as helping me keep that lead for as long as i can. he only knows what he knows already. a colony would start out knowing everything you know, and they might trade it around before you're ready to or before you get a chance to. i've never made one except to check the mechanics of it, is my thinking logical, or the usual :crazyeye:?
 
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