All Leaders Challenge Game 19: Sumer/Gilgamesh

Has anyone noticed that Taoism seems to be very big when you look in the religion advisor? It's 46% of the world's population at the moment.

If the other continent is a happy Taoist party, this is very bad news indeed.
Perhaps, but as evidenced by the eternal availability of the Oracle, clearly wonders are being produced neither left nor right, plus as Validator mentioned somebody sprung a Great General over there. They've probably got Monty or someone throwing chairs around. :lol:
 
This screams for mass-missionary-gifting to spread some discord... if there's one AI that is the most powerful by a large margin, try and turn him/her. Perhaps the others will then dogpile on him/her. With a little luck that could be lighting the fuse on the other continent, making life a lot easier for you.
 
Round 5: 305 BC to 625 AD (62 Turns)

I started the round not by making a research adjustment, as in previous rounds, but a civics adjustment:



It was a difficult choice, but I went with HR for the round, though in retrospect I probably could have gone with Representation. The thing that scared me off of Rep was the price tag--medium upkeep versus low upkeep (for HR). My economy was in very rough shape and even 1 or 2 GPT could have broken me. I spent pretty much the whole round getting things back in shape.

I managed to get a little more gold in the treasury by razing another barb city. It also gave me an opportunity to get some use out of my weakest military units by suiciding them rather than simply deleting them to save on their maintenance costs.



Yep, +1 GPT at 0% on the slider. I focused almost exclusively on infrastructure this round. I couldn't afford any more military, and could barely afford the ones I had. Ziggurats were a priority, but they alone didn't save the day. I would up cottaging everywhere I could as well, while growing my cities to their happiness caps to max out the number of cottages I could work. Once the Chariots were done with this barb city, I distributed them through the empire to raise the happiness cap in each city. All the while I kept my fingers crossed that Washington would not declare war on me.

What with claiming Metal Casting from the Oracle, I couldn't resist another wonder:



And it did help and continues to do so, as I work several water tiles to take advantage of the Colussus.

My Great Spy appeared and I sent him on a tour of America. Washington, as you'll see, has been expanding like crazy, including into the jungle area that we coveted. But what could I do? I couldn't afford any more cities. Anyway, once I knew more about the map, it was time for my GSpy to infiltrate an enemy city:



That did wonders for my Espionage standing versus Washington:



Wow. That's a lot of EPs! Add in the Ziggurats and the fact that I only have one rival civ against whom I can direct my EPs, and I have a very high ratio versus America. In fact, even before I did the infiltration thing, Washington's research was visible to me.

All I needed was one more tech to put everything into place...



That's the one.

It turns out Washington did, indeed, have several techs worth stealing:




I started producing several spies in my cities and sent them all at San Francisco, the city just north of Lagash which the espionage screen revealed would be the cheapest place to steal technology. I managed to steal everything you see on the list, as well as Calendar, and I still have tons of EPs left over.

Even so, there are other civs out there who are more advanced than George and I:



Meanwhile, the wonders in Nidaros helped produce my next Great Person:



Yep, a Merchant, from the Colossus, obviously, because I didn't have Markets nor Caste System yet to run merchant specialists. I'm not sure how to use him, so I've left him in Nidaros for now. I guess I could save him for Sid's Sushi Co., but that's a long time to leave a GP sitting around with nothing to do. A Golden Age seems like a waste of a GM (not to mention premature). I don't have a shrine city to settle him in, and I'm not sure if a trade mission to America would be all that lucrative (1350 gold--I checked).

He would have lightbulbed Currency at this point, which I was almost finished, so that seemed like a waste. But once Currency was done, his next tech to lightbulb is none other than Code of Laws. That's the tempting option right now, frankly. Caste System would be very useful with Representation. The only snag is that it's too late to found a religion. It's currently 10 turns to research it, maybe a little less when the libraries are done.

Once I finished researching Currency, I ended the round. I selected Construction as my next tech. I'm building up an army of Vultures, and it makes sense to start focusing on military again. Besides, once Washington finished Calendar (which I promptly stole from him), he began researching... Currency! The putz. So I'm beginning to think Dubya has outlived his usefulness.

At any rate, here's a look at the city builds:



I'm planning on using a couple of Triremes out of Nidaros to go exploring and see what's on those islands off the coast. Who knows, I may even manage to contact another continent. I played an off-line hemisphere map a while back and wound up in contact early on with another continent via several islands, so it is possible with this map type. But I'm not holding my breath, since no one else has come by. Cheap libraries are also on the way, along with a Vulture and a Market.

Since the economy was the big concern going into this round, here's a look at the financial advisor:



Now check out the religion advisor! All but one religion, which will be founded via Divine Right, are on the other continent. I doubt I'll have a religion until I have contact with the other land mass.

The power graph:



It's finally starting to come up for me, and a darn good thing too. I didn't want Washington to get cocky.

Top 5 cities/wonders:



As some of you have noticed, no one's gone wonder-crazy. Well, except maybe me. But check out the size of that Great Lighthouse city compared to anything George and I have.

And finally, here's a look at the map:



By the way, there's a big chunk of land in the north that is still uninhabited. That's right, Washington has ignored it in favour of snuggling up against me. Annoying. And look at that barb city he captured way down south! The nerve.

As you can see, Iron Working was one of the techs I stole. You'd think, with Gilgamesh's Creative trait and all, and five cities, that one of them would have iron. But NOOOOOOOOOOO...

There are four options to acquire iron, all of them posing challenges.

The spot NE of Uruk is closest, but would require an awkwardly placed city with no food source. Uruk's next border pop is many, many turns away.

The iron source on the desert island to the SE would require a Galley and a new city, and I have no idea if there's any food over there.

The spot to the far west would make for a decent city. I was thinking a good spot would be 1 NW, 1W of the iron (1 SE of the cows). It would claim cows, iron, fish, and bananas, though the wheat would, unfortunately, go to waste. I don't see a way to avoid that, what with those desert tiles to its south. But it's awfully far away, requires me to settle another city, and with the way Washington's been expanding in my direction, I wouldn't be surprised if he beats me to it.

The best spot, to my mind, is the former barb city of Zapotec, which is now American. Besides the iron, it has cows and fish, and the mine and, it looks like, the pasture will already be in place. The crabs are wasted; I could raze it and re-found a city 1 NW, though the iron would then need a border pop to be claimed.

Obviously, though, that would require a military build-up to take on Washington, who would probably be a little cheesed at me and might just counterattack my northern cities. So I'll need a lot of Vultures, and not all of them can take part in the attack on Zapotec; many will have to defend my core cities. I'm especially concerned about the sugar and dye getting pillaged, since those happy resources will be supporting my growth.

Oh, I also think it's time to change civics to Representation. And what should be researched after Construction? Maybe it's time to go after Aesthetics and Literature and try for the Great Library? Then after that (or instead?) it's Compass, Machinery, and Optics to go find the other civs out there.

We also need to talk about what to do with all those EPs I have on America. I still have 3364 EPs versus George!

I was thinking that rather than take him out all at once, I could conquer him in a series of wars, periodically stealing techs from him along the way. Another use of the EPs would be to position 2-3 spies in all of his cities just before declaring war, and then going on an espionage blitz, causing happiness and health problems throughout his empire. And then there's the ever-popular 1 turn of revolt to remove the need to bombad the city's cultural defenses away.

So... do ya still want to see the Vultures in action or not?
 

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It's a little far, but there is a spot on the west coast that will get you iron, plus fish, cows, and bananas.
 
IMO, the best way to showcase both your vultures and the espionage benefit of those early Courthouses is to go to war with Washington.

As you suggested, place spies in all his cities, and then give us a demonstration of just how espionage can turn an awkward war into a winnable one. As for counter-attacks in the North... well, at least you're Protective.
 
You can get a decent city for the eastern iron by settling NE of the roaded dyewIt will have three dyes, the rice and the iron, though you will have five turns after settling for the border pop to get the rice and iron.

But I agree that Zapotec needs to be taken, as well. On the other hand, as long as Washington has Zapotec he will build swordsmen, which are easy pickings for vultures. If he has copper (which I assume he has), then he will start making axes as soon as you take his iron, and those beat vultures. Can you get to pillage his copper with your chariots?
 
You could have that sexy location northwest of Kish in like 4 turns if you wanted. Retool Kish for a settler this turn, whip it the next, escort with a chariot. That city would regrow pretty fast thanks to the rice and all the grass; not much skin off your nose. That iron site has lots of wood to chop, so you could get a ziggurat up quick to alleviate those distance woes.

I'd recommend it except that I notice Washington's cities are loaded with military build orders, lots of troops and walls. He's probably cracking his knuckles and getting ready to throw down. The audience wants to see you fight, and it doesn't look to me like you'll be given much choice anyway. So forget the above paragraph and just take Zapootle or whatever the hell it was called. It's garrisoned with a lone swordsman and would probably have a second one and nothing more by the time you declare. Vultures will rip those guys apart. Take Z with a skeleton crew, and concentrate the rest of your guys on the real borders.

EDIT: You assume wrong, kjnoren, Iron's all he's got. One of the iron sources is buried nice and deep in his territory, so pillaging him out of metal completely might be hard, but you won't have to worry about him not being able to make swordsmen to be chewed on at least.
 
it's too late that I would say settle the great spy would give you more flexible option regarding using EPs. in this game, washington is not a tech monster, and u will quickly DoW to him, that makes stealing more expansive without the trade route discount.
 
save him for sids sushi?? settle him immediately and bump that research up. or build more troops, or support your sluggish economy. you have practically 150 turns (okay i dont know the exact number but it's large) to get yourself another GM. if it's only a 100 turns thats 600 gold and 100 food without adjusting for beuacracy or markets or any other modifier and this doesnt even account for how much more you'll be able to research/settle because of him
 
Settle that GM for christ´s sake, you get another one if you do it right and Sid Sushi is miles away.

I opt for stealing techs from George whilst preparing to kill him off to get more of your continent under control.
 
:mad: Aarrrgghhhh...:mad: .YOU DIDN'T MENTION ABILITY TO INVESTIGATE GEORGES CITIES...

You can view city demographics by double clickin on them. Washington is starving at size 3 with 2 scientists, George only has 2 sources of iron ONLY.

Most of his cities are BELOW your's in size, you out growthing/teching/producing spying..and now out REXING.:lol: :p

No setters sitting around/being built.:rolleyes:

Sisiutil, Georges ONLY source of Iron after you take Zopetec, is 2 SE OF Philly, in the NE 3 off coast. Maybe a suicide run of 2-4 charriots/horse archers, upon the dec of war to pillage it.

Another source is NOT in his cultural boundries...and copper it NE OF his existing cultural boundries, requiring another city...

First war, pillage iron, or leave it and face axes made from iron, they can use EITHER iron or copper. Once pillaged, George SHOULD send a settler to claim the copper to the NE, do you leave a unit as a greeting for him?? dunno.

Beeline Vassalage, and vassalize George in one war??. How soon do you want/could contact other continent. Maybe it worth having a research lap dog..

Series of wars, this would only put you further behind the other continent, and WASTE all the built up espionage points against George.

Personally I'd look at Vassalage, and vassalize George in one war, Direct the research, and STEAL the tech's he won't give/trade to you.

This will allow the highlight of Vultures, highlight the stealing or Espionage Economy, give you the best route to teching I feel, others may think otherwise, and allow greater direction of research for tech trading to other continent.

remember you've no religion, Build Shwedagon pada, ALLOW'S all religious civics, So go to Free religion, give organised religion a miss this game...

My order of things would be;

1) Research Asthetics. Build Shwedagon Pada, adopt Free religion *research bonus*
2) Build Great librairy.
3) Research vassalage.
4) War and Vassalize Georgie boy.
5) Tech to Optics and meet other continent.

Optional other are Statute of Zeus, Parthenon, Notre dame.

Philosphy is gone, as is theology, so I'd forget those wonders.

One thing you Ommitted to mention was the great Generals being born 'in a far away land', the other continent seems to be in uproar. Just hope there is one religion hog, going for a cultural victory early on, and others are scrambling for own religions. 6 religions into 4 civ's (Standard map size is default 7) It would see either one is dead, or stalemated or vassalized.


P.S. Why can't I think this much in depth with my own games..I just run about beating out bush fires........:aargh:
 
After investigating George's cities, it appears he has at 0% research and still losing money. His economy is in really bad shape, so a war should be able to tip him over the edge.
 
looked again, at Georges cities, he's LOSING MONEY AT 100% GOLD at the rate of 3/turn.

Also has a city ne of Urak, newly settled.

Zopetec is LOSING 6 gold / turn. so taking it would put George into the Green.

Research for a while, Punish George Economically, Slow down his research rate, he NEEDS CURRENCY,

:aargh: Again, why not this for myself...I'm not a fireman, am I in the CFA??
 
The iron city near the dyes and the rice is the best city if you ask me (2N1W of the iron). Really close to the capital so maintenance will not be too big a drain. 3 dyes, rice and iron makes a fine city without a problem. Culture will not be a problem since you are creative and the city will get support from the capital for certain tiles. After five turns the borders pop and all you need is two roads and a mine.

But how the hell can you be the least advanced after you stole all the techs from washington? And settle the merchant fast or use it on the trade route to bump your research. 1 food and 6 gold is never wasted. Popping it for a tech is a nono if you ask me. You are changing to representation soon. So it will also bring in 3 beakers and the 1F is half a specialist.
 
The best spot, to my mind, is the former barb city of Zapotec, which is now American. Besides the iron, it has cows and fish, and the mine and, it looks like, the pasture will already be in place. The crabs are wasted; I could raze it and re-found a city 1 NW, though the iron would then need a border pop to be claimed.
doh! CivCorpse mentioned that city spot before the barbs built it, i liked it. imo if you take it from george, you really should raze and move it 1 NW. yes it'll take a border pop, but if you keep his city you'll have to wait for it to come out of revolt, so it's not as many turns difference as it might be. and it's a far better city later on. while you're leveraging vultures, leverage the creative trait.

edit: i loaded the save, and now i'm at the point that if you keep Zapotec i will cry.

your overview shot didn't catch those whales (stupid way to the south bug). if you keep zap where it is, the only city that can claim them would be on the sheep. :) is :), and those are the only whales we've seen. we want 'em.

you don't have a wall street city but you need that GM's money, dude. a religion isn't going to pick our wall street city, corporations will (if we build any). so just pick a city that'll be a good wall street and settle him now, or go ahead and send him on the trade route to george. 1750g isn't nearly as much as we'd get across the ocean, but it's a fortune when we're making +5 gpt at 50%. what nationals were you thinking of for Lagash? it'll have nice cottages but also quite good production, which is important for wall street since it costs a ton of hammers. if we capture a shrine city overseas later, then we make wall street there but we benefited from the GM meantime.

Besides, once Washington finished Calendar (which I promptly stole from him), he began researching... Currency! The putz. So I'm beginning to think Dubya has outlived his usefulness.

if you decide to peacefully coexist with george for whatever reason, it might be worth just handing the poor guy currency :lol:. that would at least get one tech out of the way so that he might work on one you don't have so you can steal it. and if he doesn't have money you can't get it out of him by selling him other techs he starts to research that you already know *giggle*. if he does live, the slower his science rate, the slower our stealing rate after all.

remember you've no religion, Build Shwedagon pada, ALLOW'S all religious civics, So go to Free religion, give organised religion a miss this game...

+10% science per city is not worth building a wonder at this point in our empire. i haven't opened the save, but just looking at the domestic advisor, we're bringing in 60 beakers total, 13 at our best science city. and i think the 10% is before multipliers? we'll get more beakers with rep but still ... there are better things to spend hammers on than that wonder. we'd get 0 :) from it after all.

You can get a decent city for the eastern iron by settling NE of the roaded dyewIt will have three dyes, the rice and the iron, though you will have five turns after settling for the border pop to get the rice and iron.

we can see american borders up there, and they claim the rice and one dye already. i think the city is 1W of the rice, which would make your tile illegal.

while i'm on my editing frenzy, i'll reply to the post below mine ;):
Spy points I say save them, build spies, take out all the metal resources at once on first turn of the war, build other spies to drop the cultural borders before assaulting the city. Let's see a good eprionage war.

oh yeah! we can use spies to pillage his other iron, we don't have to have troops on resources right away! in addition to metals, he has horses at los angeles but no pasture on them yet.
 
I vote for war with George and showcase the vultures.

SPy points I say save them, build spies, take out all the metal resoruces at once on first turn of the war, build other spies to drop the cultural borders before assaulting the city. Let's see a good eprionage war.

After Construction I say agressively pursue Fuedalism and try to
vassal Washington. Get the continent nailed down ASAP before you meet the other rivals. AI's are not getting many wonders so I would delay Aesthetics/Literature until you have Fuedalism (highly promoted protective longbows).

The other choice is to buddy up with GW and get iron with a weaker city.
 
I think it's a little too late for the GL, though Drama would be helpful. I'm thinking Civil service looks good. I haven't had a chance to examine the save yet but from a cursory glance it seems about time for it don't you think? hmm 625 and no civil service is kinda slow. I thought 3.13 picked up the AI's research rate. You are going to have AI's from the other continent showing up on your doorstep soon.
I would wait a little on Washington. His economy is in the toilet, spam some more cottages build up the army a little get some settlers made for when you have to raze and resettle.
Settle that merchant, I suggest Eridu or Lagash whichever has more cottage capacity.
Don't forget you are going to need a 6th city at least. I wouldn't worry about vassalizing Washington. They are more trouble than they are worth most of the time, unless you can get them VERY early, like BC early. Take him out in a few wars or vassalize him after meeting the other AI's.
 
I think this game demonstrated an interesting example of how the Great Spy infiltration might be a litte overpowered. Stealing that many techs this early basically just because you got the Great Wall is too much in my opinion. I am not sure if the game does this now, but it should scale down the espionage points in the early game methinks. And on top of that look at how easily you get all the passive espionage points for city investigation and seeing Washington's research, and using the spy itself to scout all his lands without threat of detection. And you are on Emperor level.

I vote to keep that Great Merchant for an expedition across the ocean and a hefty trade mission. That will really boost your economy a bit later when you have Optics, and in the meantime you seem to be nicely bringing your economy back up to speed so it can wait a little while.
 
I don't think it is overpowered at all for the great spy.. at most it can give you tech pairity with the AI assuming you have a neighbor who has a tech advantage. and even now he is still at the bottom of the tech pool. if anything the slingshot effect has only let him partially catch up to emperor level AI.

I've done GW gambits and had nothing to steal on monarch because I was stuck next to monty and toku.. so it's a mixed bag on effectiveness.

not to mention you can always be foiled if the AI has beefed up its spy count.

but on to current events.

with your EP advantage you can forment unhappiness and poison water super cheap. I would spend the bulk of your points on these activities starting now.. it will CRIPPLE washington.

have an army of 5-8 spies and just send them over and over until every critical city in his empire is non productive and in starvation mode. save about 1000 ep's to do a city revolt the turn you attack and cultural defences won't mean anything.

you can do this even before reaching construction which would negate the need for catapults in the initial push.

and it would be fun to see some screen shots of critically damaged cities. you should have enough EP's to double click on his cities and see what he is doing in them.

NaZ
 
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