Sparta: Rise and Fall

Sandris · Nov 14, 2007

I would like to propose to post in this thread all the possible images and suggestions, advices, descriptions on Spartan units in order to complete the Spartan civilization`s unit line (slingers, peltasts, javeliners, bowmen, horsemen, spearmen, clubmen, swordsmen etc).

The information must be referred ONLY TO SPARTANS, not to other hellenic greek civs, which will be discussed and completed later in a separate way.

After we get all necessary information on what units must be made, the unit-making process maybe distributed between several members.

Stormrage · Nov 14, 2007

Sorry, Sandris, buddy, but this is for completed units only. Plot will have to move it to main C&C.

Sandris · Nov 14, 2007

It was a technical mistake. I was sure I`m creating this thread in the main C&C and haven`t noticed it`s in the Units thread. Sorry.

Plotinus · Nov 14, 2007

Moderator Action: Thread moved.

COAtlantis1745 · Nov 14, 2007

For the very beginning of the unit spectrum for Sparta (possibly for any of the Hellenic civs), might I suggest the following pieces of art:

In order of chronological progresssion, I think it would be cool to suggest a simple villager/peasant taking up a basket load of stones or an armful of javelin and quickly forming conscripted ranks. These fellows would be the uber-cheap spear-fodder of the late neolithic and bronze age.

Another potentiality would be to Plotinus to create a warrior animation for the Med Worker (hint hint). However, I think these simple stone and javelin throwers would work as well.

Stormrage · Nov 14, 2007

I think a javelineer would be neat. And there is an animation for that.

Mithadan · Nov 14, 2007

I will scan my Osprey book for you, that should help a bit.

Sandris · Nov 15, 2007

What kind of hats do they have ?

Cimbri · Nov 15, 2007

Either one of the Greek "sun hats" or one like in the three pictures above.

The two guys in the bottom look really cool, by the way.

And actually, I think the "sun hat" would be used in the time after the Persian Wars.

TopGun · Nov 15, 2007

A long time ago, I drew "some" unit concept sketches:

A generic Greek Slinger and a Spartan Helot.

Maybe these will inspire you?

Sandris · Nov 15, 2007

And what about the colors (cloth, civ-color) ?

Sandris · Nov 15, 2007

Here`re some more images:

Spoiler :

Sandris · Nov 15, 2007

Reserved for previews ...

TopGun · Nov 15, 2007

That archer is a skythian archer. The Greeks/Spartans did not levy archer troop contigents themselves. They always hired Skythian mercenaries for that purpose.

Cimbri · Nov 15, 2007

I think the Spartans would reserve their own colors for their upper class warriors, rather than their slave class Helots. The colors in the pictures seems resonable.

Mithadan · Nov 16, 2007

From Nick Sekunda, The Spartan Army (Oxford: Osprey, 1998) -- paintings by Richard Hook:

Proto-Hoplites from "the Time of Lycurgus" (if there be such)

Spoiler :

Spartan Kings (apparently there were always two of them)

Spoiler :

Spartan Hoplites with various additional (or not) pieces of armour (thigh guards, arm guards etc.)

Spoiler :

The Battle of Thermopylae

Spoiler :

The Battle of Plataea

Spoiler :

Spartan Hoplite with a muscled cuirass instead of a bell cuirass, plus some baggage carriers and musicians

Spoiler :

Mithadan · Nov 16, 2007

The Battle of Mantineia

Spoiler :

Lysander's Fleet (allied marine hoplite, naval archer, steersman)

Spoiler :

A Spartan in Chill-Out Clothes (pilos felt cap, model of the new pilos helmet above)

Spoiler :

Mercenary Archer & Hoplites

Spoiler :

Lakedaimonian Cavalryman (apparently they sucked, usually it was better for Sparta to hire Mercenary Cavalry) accompanied by two Skiritai, stabbing a Theban hoplite from behind

Spoiler :

As Skiritis was an allied community, not an integral part of Lakedaimon, the Skiritai only fought alongside the Lakedaimonian cavalry when the allies were mobilised for a major campaign. In other circumstances the Lakedaimonian cavalry had to rely upon the close support of peltasts. These companies of peltasts seem to have been mercenaries. This does not rule out their being native Lakonians, but it makes it highly unlikely.
--Ibid., p. 49

Keroro · Nov 16, 2007

Firstly - I also believe that the Spartans were not keen on fighting as peltasts - mercs were commonly used in that role I believe. As I understand it peltasts as such (with the Pelta shield) were relatively late, hoplites hit the scene earlier; undoubtedly there were some skirmishers in early Spartan armies though, maybe without the characteristic shield. Still, I find it hard to believe that Spartan citizens would fight in such a role, mercs or subject peoples seem more likely to have done that.

Secondly - I also believe that Spartan cavalry sucked - certainly compared to the horesemen from Argos or (later) Macedonia they were not a major part of the army and won no particular fame. This is slightly different from many Greek states, where it was only the richest and best equipped citizens that could afford to use horses.

Oh, BTW, there were always two Spartan Kings so that one could go out and subdue barbarians (or other Greeks) and the other could stay at home. This way they should never be left without a leader.

Sandris · Nov 16, 2007

Should the stone throwers use the stones from their bags or just picking and throwing them from the ground ?

Stormrage · Nov 16, 2007

So who was King #2 for that Leonidas dude?

I`d say bags. Sometimes there just aren`t any good stones around

Sparta: Rise and Fall

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