ALC Game 20: Vikings/Ragnar

Pre-Game Thread

Starting Position (this post, below)
Round 1: 4000 BC to 3175 BC (33 turns)
Round 2: 3175 BC to 1550 BC (65 turns)
Round 3: 1550 BC to 25 AD (77 turns)
Round 4: 25 AD to 730 AD (47 turns)
Round 5: 730 AD to 930 AD (16 turns)
Round 6: 930 AD to 1130 AD (20 turns)
Round 7: 1130 AD to 1395 AD (41 turns)
Round 8: 1395 AD to 1495 AD(20 turns)
Round 9: 1495 AD to 1722 AD (52 turns)
Round 10: 1722 AD to 1790 AD (34 turns)
Round 11: 1790 AD to 1822 AD (67 turns)
Post Mortem

The idea of the All Leaders Challenge is that I'm going to play a game with each of the Civ IV leaders. With the help of all the posters who participate, I will attempt to make the most of the leader's unique characteristics: traits, starting techs, unit, and building. Aside from the leader, the other game settings are (mostly) kept constant for the sake of comparison. I will post the saved game files, screenshots, and status reports here as the game progresses. Everyone then has a chance to chime in with their strategy ideas, or voice their frustration (or glee) when I make a mistake.

Everyone is invited to offer opinions and advice, and to make your own attempt at playing the same game. But if you do play a "shadow game", I kindly request that you refrain from posting spoilers--i.e. any facts or even hints about the map, opponents, and so on--before I'm there myself. I'm trying to play the game as authentically as possible.

In this ALC game, I'll be playing as Ragnar, leader of the Vikings. I'm playing the game using the new Beyond the Sword expansion pack, its latest patch (3.13), and Bhruic's unofficial patches as well. The difficulty level is Emperor, the map is Archipelago, and the speed is Epic.

Here is a more detailed look at the initial game settings.



In addition, I've left the "Choose Religion" option on. I'm getting used to it and kind of like it; the religion choices usually fit the civilization in question, so it feels more "authentic". It also leaves me without such obvious give-aways regarding what technology has been researched by a competitor.

Based on feedback in the pre-game thread, I decided to forgo the Aggressive AI setting this time around since many people said the AI doesn't war well on a more watery map. I also declined to choose my competitors, even a couple of them. I like that element of mystery in the game. (I will be using Aggressive AI in the next game, as Shaka, for those who want to see it in action.) I decided to use snaky continents with medium sea levels rather than low to provide a bit more water-based action, but with what I hope will be a reasonable land base.

Here's a reminder as to Ragnar's unique characteristics:



And, finally, here is the starting position:



This is the third start I regenerated. The first two were actually better--they both had gold in the BFC or nearby. Don't get me wrong, I love having gold in the start in my off-line games, but in the ALCs, where I have so much help, I think it loads the deck too much--especially for a Financial leader! Not that this is a weak start either; but generally, when I see gold in the start, I pretty much consider the game already won. Unless I really screw up big time. Which never happens. Uh-huh.

So as I said, I think this is a very strong start for Ragnar. It's coastal, for one. And of course there are resources that will be available within the first few turns thanks to Ragnar's starting techs. There's a river for fresh water, and a flood plain and some riverside tiles for cottages or irrigation. Also some forests for health or chopping and some hills for production (they're even next to rivers for +1 ).

I really think settling in place makes sense. This is the sort of coastal start I really like, where the land extends into the water past the Settler's position, giving me more of those very versatile and useful land tiles and fewer water tiles. There are still 6 of those, and they're all coastal, so they'll all benefit from Ragnar's Financial boost.

Having stone doesn't suck either. Not that I want to get wonder-happy or anything, but here's a complete list of all the world wonders that are accelerated by stone:

• Stonehenge
• Pyramids
• Great Wall
• Hanging Gardens
• Angkor Wat
• Chichen Itza
• Notre Dame
• University of Sankore
• Spiral Minaret
• Kremlin

So we should talk about which ones would be most advantageous to Ragnar, and adjust our opinions as we go along, of course. But it makes sense to plan for them now. Should I go after the Pyramids, for example? Rangar is Financial, not Philosophical, remember, so I won't be running a specialist economy; how much benefit would early representation really be? (+3 happy in 5 cities--er, a lot?) Stonehenge might be nice for a change of pace--I don't think I've built it in ages, neither in the ALCs nor off-line. Then again, how beneficial would a Great Prophet be to Ragnar? (A lot, I guess, if I capture a holy city without a shrine...) Decisions, decisions!

Oh well, wonder talk is all well and good, but I'm putting the cart before the horse, as it were.

I was thinking of sending the Scout 1 SE of the Settler just to see what else will be in the BFC--one of the grains would be nice. And of course I'm hoping for a strategic tech on one of those currently-empty grassland or plains tiles.

Since I think this start will entail less debate than usual (though of course I could be wrong), we should also discuss next moves once the capital is founded, which I'll probably do in short order. What techs should be researched first? Sailing for the UB and pseudo-UUs (fast ships)? Mining and good ol' Bronze Working? Or should I consider Archery for early defense since I start with Hunting? I'd say Masonry is going to be an early priority as well, but when?

And what about builds? I was thinking of a work boat followed by a Worker. Then what?

The saved game file is below. I look forward to your comments and advice!

Subscribing, not connecting to the internet for 2 days and expecting to have to wade through 10 pages of posts.

A whacky option for settling, move to the plains hill stone for a 3 hammer city centre and a lot of coastal tiles for a Moai build later. Or even a great GP farm later.
Having so many sea resources means there could be another civs capital close.

Hmm... I would be tempted to move 1 "west" and settle on the stone. This would give you access to all four clams, as well as 11 Coastal Tiles! An awesome place to build the Moi Statues, which I believe are also cheaper with stone, and, if I'm not mistaken, settling on the stone-plains-hill will give you a 3 hammer base city tile... not bad for the capital! (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here.) You could then use your second/third cities to cottage spam. You will want to be working those clams, why not throw in an extra hammer each for an awesome early food-production capital. Now build those boats! =)

EDIT: 50 dollar bar beat me to it! =)

Hmm, btw, settling on a Plains Hill Stone gives you 3 Hammers if I am not mistaken. Couple that with 2 more seafood and you got an awesome, scary capital.

Bah, this time I think I will play a shadow game.

I think it's less appealing to settle on the stone, doing so would mean MUCH less production, which I consider to be the most important resource for the capital, and remember, it's an archipelago map so having a strong production capital will be a huge boon. Also adding more sea tiles would make the city weaker overall in the long term even with extra clams and financial.

With stone for the capital I would go for any and all early stone wonders I can get. I would probably go worker, settler, some scouts/warriors then Stonehenge, The Great Wall. The Pyramids can be built at leisure a bit later with no problem unless you're very unlucky and someone else got stone hooked up right away and went straight for it.

I'd settle in place, leaving the other 2 clams for 2 other cities. You're on an archipelago with medium sea level, so land will be at a premium. You can see on the edge of the NW clam some land, and the sw clam is by a hill, so you know you can claim each in a seperate city. One of those clams can turn a one tile city into something useful, along the lines of the Trade Economy (apologies, I can't recall who had that very helpful post)

Workboat to worker sounds good to me. The stone gives me pause, I usually get into trouble when I have stone, I start to get a little wonder happy. One possible good use would be to ignore it until you've got your cities going a bit, then build the pyramids for the engineer gp points, with an eye on using a GE to build the colossus. But then, if depending on who's where, you might obsoleting the colossus early on.

If you settle on the stone, you'll still have a plains hill, a plains elephant, and presumably Maoi statues to give your capital hammers. That's not bad at all, and the early boost is huge.

I say do it.

I'll admit my first instinct was to settle on the stone. But I'd like the scout to move first (I agree on the ESE) to see if you'd be losing anything besides the second elephant.

Bh

Those ivory/plains/river can immediately be camped for 1F/3H/3C (that's like a grassy hill mined with 3 commerce to boot), you would lose one of them if you move to the stone + the grassland river hill. Not to mention the anvil you miss out on if you settle on the stone. I love to settle cities on plains hills but this might not be the time. Although settling on the stone and you could skip the wheel for immediate quick wonder builds with masonry.

I love the GW but would skip it on Archipelago and try for Stonehenge, Great Lighthouse and the mids.

> I think this start will entail less debate than usual
Unfortunately, 1W versus in place is totally debatable. 1W is great, 2 free hammers and 8 specialists before Civil Service, probably with Representation. In place is also great, Fin bonus for the Ivory, etc.

You should be able to defend your home island from barbs with just Warriors, especially with Agg.

I'd start with Mysticism-->Mining-->Masonry and WBx2-->Worker-->Settler-->Warrior-->Stonehenge.

Stonehenge:
* very handy for warfare in BtS
* The early Wonder is good if you also get Representation
* You can afford the diversion because you already have a good food tech and because Archipelago with Agg means you have less than average time pressure to defend from barbs and grab land from AIs.

In fact I think you can afford the diversion of Mysticism-->Masonry-->Poly-->Mono. You have enough commerce for a sufficient chance of it, and Mysticism and Masonry should be on your path anyway. However I would only do it if setting 1W, to get the shrine+merchants+Wall Street combo, probably with settled Prophets and Merchants with Representation. Build would be something like WBx2-->Warrior-->Settler-->Worker-->Stonehenge.

Settling on the stone and researching Masonry would give Nidaros an extra hammer for a total of 2 3 1 . I just tested this with his save.

However, I'm thinking of settling in place for some long term advantages. Quarrying the stone would net Nidaros more in the future. There's another PH to the south which could be mined as well. Add in the clams, elephants, and river grasslands, there's alot of potential with that starting spot.

Moving the scout NE would allow him to go further than if you went SE and into the trees. You could rotate around Nidaros from there.

I like a workboat on the first build for the early quick growth.

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I just got finished playing Ragnar on a Monarch archipelago, and I made Nidaros my merchant-wonder city with the Great Lighthouse and Colossus. I can't tell you how huge of a difference those two wonders can make on this kind of map. At the very least, seriously consider GLH in Nidaros.

If you're thinking of going for Stonehenge, you're going to have to research Mysticism, and then from there you're looking at an early religion to really take advantage of the research you just spent. With stone available, Masonry coupled with Polytheism > Monotheism would get you there, but you're already cutting into worker/military techs.

On the other hand, I wouldn't blink if you went with the Great Wall, and look at your second/third city for the GLH and/or Colossus. GLH needs Masonry and Sailing, while GW only requires Masonry, so you could research other techs while building the GW, and then start on the GLH when the time is right. However, I'm not sure how useful GW is under these conditions.

Or... just build troops and go and take the wonders. Elephants, hmm...

Settle in place.

If you get the Pyramids and an Engineer, the Machinery bulb is more attractive than usual, as a way to pursue getting Berserkers before AI Longbows. Of course, that would work better if you really focused on it (maybe skipping Currency, Construction.)

Under the right circumstances Theology could be a better use for a Prophet than settling, even with Representation, since the Theology bulb might come at around the same time you're preparing to leave your island.

This is looking ahead a bit, but it affects how you think about wonders, religion, your tech plans, and even your starting tile.

settle the stone....oh please settle the stone...i will be your bestest friend ever....oh glory days the wonders we can build. Shiny grand wonders
Pointy traingular wonders, loooong snaky wall wonders.......strange head shaped wonders...and more wonders. I am tempted to play the save just to build wonders. I have never played Emperer level...well not beyond 1ad when I am in the process of dying. But that is a superduper SE start....with lovely stone, gorgeous and delectable stone. luxury resources and seafood don't seem to count towards starting location resources, so there is a good chance of copper, iron or Mr Eds being there. If the scout reveals a bonus tile in the rest of the BFC that hurts your chances a bit. I would settle the stone to gain the 4 clams. I doubt you will get anything that will compensate for the 2 extra seafood. I am hoping there is a food tile hidden, It will make the 2nd city much better. So often I get a strong start but the surrounding terrain makes for poopy 2nd and 3rd cities. I tend to have a mega city that needs to produce everything while the other cities just sort of chip in insignificantly.
On the subject of Maeiou statues...i would build them elsewhere if that is going to be a GP farm. the NE pollutes the pool enough as it is.
OK, time for me to go play my online game for marathon fans

go west. stone for 2 clams? i'd do it.

Settle in place. Food-heavy is tempting, but even with two clams the surplus is there to grow at a healthy rate.

I'd think something like workboat, workboat, worker, and archers on the way to happy cap, which is 6 with the ivory. And then you have your settler/worker pump. Food works at pop 6 with the specials and the plains hill, monster pump.

Having tech for four tiles covered, all you need is The Wheel, Archery, and Mining. Then maybe Mysticism and Masonry.

Hopefully a good spot appears for Stonehenge in a second city. If it can afford to not build archers for the third.

CivCorpse said:

settle the stone....oh please settle the stone...i will be your bestest friend ever....oh glory days the wonders we can build. Shiny grand wonders

Click to expand...

Much more production for those wonders in place. And no need for specialists. In place is better, there's the tiles that the scout will reveal as well, and you lose a finacial elephant if you go 1W.

You shouldn't need masonry to get the extra hammer. Plain hill stone has a base hammer of 3 so you'll get 3 hammers when you settle on it. I'd settle on the stone just for variety. It makes for a very interesting capital with a cheap Moai (early sailing). You'll be able to whip out settlers very rapidly with a few nets and a granary. Of course you may find yourself in a tight spot later if you can't find a good secondary hammer city...

You also retain river access by moving and have access to a plains hill (4 hammers) and plains ivory (3 hammers) for a total of 10 hammers. You could work those 2 tiles + a clam at size 3 for excellent worker/settler production. Unless you're going to lose a grain tile, I'd move (and even then, I'd probably still move).

I would definitely settle 1W. This start screams for Moai statues!

Don't go wonder-crazy. All you need is the Great Lighthouse, it should be the highest priority. Pyramids, Colossus and maybe Oracle are nice to have, but forget Henge and the 2nd GL.

Build: Workboat-workboat-worker-enough warriors to grow happy cap-whip lighthouse-settler-GL-(moai-pyramids/pyramids-moai?)

Research: Sailing-mining-BW-mysticism-masonry

Timing should be ok.



There seems to be lots of forests in south, if there is enough consider chopping Oracle for MC and Colossus. If you settle 1W, you have enough research power to get all the techs in time by working seafood and ivory.

slaze said:

Much more production for those wonders in place. And no need for specialists. In place is better, there's the tiles that the scout will reveal as well, and you lose a finacial elephant.

Click to expand...

You don't lose the elephant, It just goes to the next city. It's hammers can crank troops while your capital builds wonders. With the phants you get + 1 happiness, that plus rep makes 9 total without a religion. You need 2 more happiness mods...hopefully a religion spreads and you can build a temple. With a trading post you have 20 food from the clams plus 2 from the city center. that is 22-8 to work the clams. That is 7 scientists. 42 raw beakers...or 52 with a library. That is a lot in the early game. plus 12 commerce from the tiles themselves. even at 70% research with a library that adds a little over 10 more beakers. Add in the 10 from the palace and you have 70beakers per turn. That is a lot. 23GPP from the specialists and the mids. That is a butt load of science early on...start settling Great people and you have a monster city well before the industrial age.