ALC Game 20: Vikings/Ragnar

Bizzy and Hannibal are already the friendliest leaders. Both have useful techs and resources to trade, and both are, in my experience, largely trustworthy. However, they are also (AFAIK) my closest targets... er, neighbours. (Same diff to a Viking, really.)

Hammurabi and Mehmed don't have too many resources to offer me, though Hammy does have a few choice techs I'd love to get at. They're further away, and therefore possibly more troublesome targets. Both of them, however--Mehmed especially--are slippery, back-stabbing scum.

Actually, Mehmed, Hammurabi and Hannibal all have the 'loyal' personality, i.e. they will not declare war if they're Pleased with you. Bismarck, Roosevelt and Isabella are the potential 'backstabbers'. So all the strong leaders are loyal and the weaklings are backstabbers...interesting. The problem is, once you choose a religion the opposing side won't be pleased with you any longer so loyalties won't really matter...

It is guaranteed however that once the other civs make contact with Roosevelt he's going to become everyone's worst enemy due to his different religion and really high 'peaceweight'. If Roosevelt is still around by the time the others get Optics (i.e. you haven't eliminated him), I'd recommend getting others involved in the war just to collect the mutual military struggle bonuses - once you get it they never go away for rest of the game! :)
 
I'd say
1. Get Courthouses and focus the Espionage points on your first target (Spies+Berserkers+Galleons for city conquest.. possibly use the slider)
[Crossbows can be your defenders]

2. Go for Roosevelt and use Forbidden Palace to Hold his Island

3. Go for Divine Right for Versailles to use on your next target (you have marble) [either the Buddhists, the Confucians, or the Muslims]

Then Vassalize remaining Islands that aren't right next to either the FP or Verssailles [by that point you should have Feudalism]

so Civil Service for Bureaucracy and Berserkers, Divine Right for Verssailes, Liberalism Race for Nationalism, then up to Steel
 
edit: drafting cuts exp in half, but one spiffy thing about aggressive and that quest reward: even drafted zerkers start with free Combat 1 and Drill 1 :)

Yeah, the quest will probably work out well for you. I was skeptical at first, as you'd normally not have enough time to use Berserkers in an isolated start, but now that you have early Astronomy? Excellent. *does the Mr. Burns thing with his hands* Your berserkers are awesome at this point. C1, Drill 1, amphibious maces with a CR bonus? It's like you have Toku's rifles crossed with marines. You really ought to leverage that with the early astro to at least take out one opponent. I'd say leave Hannibal/Bismark alone; they can be late-game unit threats...but you're Ragnar. Nobody can keep up with you in power if you decide to go for it. Use them as tech allies and you'll be heads and shoulders above the pack.

Also, I think Nationalism will be excellent for you. Pretty much everything's coming together for some draft wars. 1: lots and lots of food on the island. 2: early astronomy. 3: mace-based UU with quest bonus. 4: ridiculously fast ships. Switch to Confuscianism, run Theology, and start drafting out an army of Berserkers. (Don't wait to get Confuscianism to start this, though; go for it ASAP) Then declare a holy war against Islam & Roosevelt.

As far as civics goes, I'd wait for CS to swap to Caste System. Slave revolts don't happen too often, so if you've already had one I wouldn't worry much. Waiting consolidates your anarchy. Even more so, I'd consider using your next GP for a golden age. It's a balancing act, because it's early enough that settling is a good choice, and there are enough people around that bulbing is thoughtworthy, but since you've already beelined a lot, I'd stay away from the bulb, and then I'd lean in favor of a golden age over settling for the immediate boost; you get civic switches and big bonuses to hammers/research. If you get the golden age right as you get CS, swap to Beauracracy/Caste, then manage to snag Nationalism before the GA is over, then you can swap to Nationalism/Theo without penalty, and begin drafting the newly less-productive citizens at the same time as you need less research, since you've accomplished your temporary goal of nationalism.
 
For all those who are advocating going after Roosevelt, let's not forget there's another civ waiting to be found. And that civ likely founded either Buddhism or Hinduism and will not be liked by anyone else who happens to encounter him. It's highly unlikely any of the known civs to this point founded either Buddhism or Hinduism if they have converted to the later religions.

So I'd find that civ first, and I suspect that civ might be directly south of Sisiutil's islands. And if that is the case, and said civ has not had contact with the others, that's the first target, as the lands would be closer and the other civs won't care what happens.

Roosevelt might be the first of the known civs to target, but I'd look for that other civ first and then re-evaluate.

Did a screenshot Sisiutil show really say that Judaism wasn't founded until 640 AD or so? :confused: That's definitely a first.
 
But for me the biggest deal is Validators initial goal. That is galleons full of berserkers.:D

That's not exactly how I put it. ;) In my previous post I listed 5 advantages of getting Astronomy, and galleons filled with berserkers was one of them. The others could be just as important in the overall plan to achieve victory. I think there's a strong case that can be made in favor of military action in the near future, but right now I think we need more info from some additional scouting before deciding how to proceed.

Many are suggesting an attack on Roosevelt, which would likely be successful, but the little bit of America that is visible is down in the southern tundra. Possibly Rosy's poor showing in the tech area is at least partially due to having a bad starting location. In that case is it really going to be worthwhile to conquer him?

The Carthage/German landmass looks to be mostly nice green terrain. That would be a much better addition to the Viking empire, even if it is a bit harder to acquire. (BTW, I noticed that in one of the screenshots a Carthaginian city is being defended by a catapult. It makes me think that Hannibal doesn't have any strategic resources, or at least didn't until a short time ago. :blush: So conquering that continent may not be so hard after all.)

And then there's the unknown civ that very well may be the best option for a first target.

So I would actually think this is a time to do some scouting while dealing with the infrastructure needs of the Viking cities. None have either a market (+3 :) in addition to the wealth boost) or courthouse (reduced maintenance plus EPs). Many need other buildings. I think Moai in Birka is a good idea. It has enough land based production to be turn into a good production city and enough water tiles to get a decent :hammers: boost.

Then, once all the landmasses have been revealed, we can discuss who should be the first victim. :lol:
 
I love how, when you met everyone, you had literature without the alphabet, and machinery without any construction. I'd love to see what that society is like to live in.
Anyway, excellent work. Perhaps we'll see some Viking Action soon.
 
I love how, when you met everyone, you had literature without the alphabet, and machinery without any construction. I'd love to see what that society is like to live in.
Anyway, excellent work. Perhaps we'll see some Viking Action soon.
Heh. Let's assume that the literature was all of the oral variety. As for Machinery w/o Construction--we have ****oo clocks but no tall buildings? Something like that. :crazyeye:

However, that's part of the beauty of the Civ IV tech tree--you have all these different permutations and combinations of tech paths, unlike previous versions of the game that were very repetitive. This ALC is probably demonstrating the flexibility of the tech tree more than any other game in the series thus far. (That may be a reflection of changes to the tree in BtS as well.)

It's refreshing to me to see that even twenty games into the ALCs, there are still new tricks and gambits we can pull out of our collective hats. Isn't that why we all love Civ so much? The way you can play it over and over and never have 2 games exactly alike?
 
I think the overwhelming majority are saying need more scouting.
I agree. I need to know a lot more about each civ's respective land before deciding on a target. Paper for map trading will help there, as will more Caravels and Galleons. And I need to find bachelor #8 before making any military decisions.

Also, I think Validator is right about building a little more infrastructure. My isolation means that the other civs are not going to be a threat for centuries to come, so I don't have to rush to military. More infrastructure now means I should be able to more easily absorb the various costs of warring later on. If I'm going to use Spies to remove cultural defenses, I'm going to need Courthouses and maybe Castles to increase my espionage points, and a few Markets are a good idea too. Furthermore, one of Validator's listed advantages to early Astronomy was early Observatories. (Before Universities! How often do you see that?!?) So I can also build a few of those.

All of that makes Organized Religion sound more attractive, but that may depend on what religions spread to me, and to what extent. But if I want to change three civics (CS, OR, and Bureaucracy), then Melon Head's recommended use of the next GP for a Golden Age may be a really good idea in order to perform that change without anarchy.
 
PS2: I quite agree that trading iron was allmost foolhardy. Not to mention you got carried away a bit with trading older cheap rather than handy techs. Wasnt CoL available as a trade?:confused:
I'll revise the Iron trade as soon as I have something less dangerous to offer. I'm getting a pretty sweet deal for it, though, and I don't have much else to trade at the moment.

As for CoL--it was red-lined everywhere. I've noticed the BtS AI does this with certain techs now, and CoL is a common one. Another one the AI seems to love to hoard now is Corporation, probably because it enables corporations. I've made the mistake in a couple of off-line games of waiting for it to be available for tech trading, which it never is. This then delays Assembly Line and Fascism, and then I lose out on both the Pentagon and the free Great General. :mad:
 
I'll revise the Iron trade as soon as I have something less dangerous to offer. I'm getting a pretty sweet deal for it, though, and I don't have much else to trade at the moment.

Hi

Thats why you should hook up the *squirrels* :P

Kaytie
 
I smell Privateer fun. Especially if the AI is making most of their commerce from the sea...
 
Round 5: 730 AD to 930 AD (16 turns)

A very short round, but I think I'm coming up to some key decision points, so I wanted to make sure I make the right ones.

A couple of turns into the round, I finally met the wallflower:

ALC20_930AD_01.jpg


As many of you suspected, he is indeed due south of me, on a somewhat small island. He's obviously not as backward as Roosevelt, but he's another tempting target. I made two deals with him: Open Borders and gold for clams.

I founded my next city for the squirrels... I mean beavers... oh, to heck with it, for the furs, whatever critter they happen to come from.

ALC20_930AD_02.jpg


I also finished researching my next tech on that same turn...

ALC20_930AD_13.jpg


...and I also earned my next Great Person.

ALC20_930AD_03.jpg


I was tempted to use him to lightbulb Philosophy. Very tempted. But I'm rolling through techs like crazy at this point compared to other games and I remembered the advice to use him for a Golden Age. So that's what I did, which allowed me to change civics anarchy-free.

ALC20_930AD_04.jpg


As planned, I adopted Bureaucracy, Caste System, and... Universal Suffrage? Yes, well, I had a little gold saved up, so why not hurry a couple of buildings along? As for the religious civics, I still only had Christianity in my cities, so it wasn't very appealing. No way I wanted to adopt that faith and wind up a pariah. It made more sense to remain in Paganism.

I leveraged US in Bjorgvin, which is rather production-poor, to speed along some of its infrastructure.

ALC20_930AD_05.jpg


A couple of turns later, Isabella came by offering me a heckuva deal.

ALC20_930AD_06.jpg


How could I refuse? It's rare to have the AI offer me a deal that lopsided in my favour. Obviously Izzy wants to do some exploring to see if she can claim some land beyond that which Hannibal bestowed upon her. We'll see more of that shortly.

You see, my next tech enabled me to find out a lot more about the other territory out there:

ALC20_930AD_07.jpg


It's also, obviously, on the Liberalism path.

I started going around, swapping maps with pretty much everybody.

ALC20_930AD_08.jpg


What the heck, I won the circumnavigation race, and my early Optics and Astronomy mean that my maps are particularly valuable. I also earned a lot of additional gold from these sales, and some diplomatic goodwill too.

The gold allowed me to hurry another building in Bjorgvin:

ALC20_930AD_09.jpg


I thought this was great--yet another way to leverage the Pyramids. All of this will make Bjorgvin into a decent city just thanks to its specialists.

I managed to make a deal with Roosevelt too:

ALC20_930AD_10.jpg


Hammurabi was offering both Feudalism and some other techs, but I didn't want to trade techs to him since we're both close in score. Thanks to Isabella and FDR I didn't have to.

I did, however, give him a free tech when he came asking for it.

ALC20_930AD_11.jpg


What the heck, it made him Pleased, and it keeps my diplomatic options open.

On the last turn of the round, I finished researching another tech on the Liberalism path. No, no one would trade it to me.

ALC20_930AD_12.jpg


And as you can see, I have one turn left in my Golden Age. So I can change civics anarchy-free again, so we can discuss that.

I'll follow this update with a state-of-the-world post which will be heavy on maps. All the better to decide whom we should target with some Galleons filled with Berserkers. Bwa-ha-ha...
 

Attachments

I recommend a berserker-rush on Hannibal--he's close, and he's powerful (only trivially behind Hammurabi, who is much further away).
 
The State of the World, 930 AD

As I said, let's have a detailed look at the map. Starting off with an overview of the globe--the hemisphere containing the Viking empire first:

ALC20_930AD_27.jpg


I left off the resource indicators at this magnification to make the cities clearer. I have some larger scale maps below where the resources are visible.

Here's the other half of the world.

ALC20_930AD_28.jpg


Now let's zoom in a little bit. Here's the Viking empire, up close and personal:

ALC20_930AD_14.jpg


Just on the main land mass alone, I could plunk down three to four more cities easily. My borders extended to include the crabs NE of Uppsala, so I built a workboat to claim them.

Here's a closer look at Khmer territory:

ALC20_930AD_15.jpg


Like I said, a tempting target. Mind you, the only resource he has that I don't is gold. Still, the extras could be handy for trading.

Here's America.

ALC20_930AD_16.jpg


Very
interesting, I think. On the one hand, he has some terrible land--all plains, hills, tundra, and ice. On the other hand, look at those resources! Five deer tiles, three silver, and enough seafood to make it all work. And he somehow managed to build the Great Wall. I dunno, it's very tempting to go after him and build the Forbidden Palace down there just for the resources. The Financial trait will have a field day with those silver tiles, too.

Here's a closer look at Babylonian and Ottoman territory.

ALC20_930AD_17.jpg


Yes, Hammy has some awfully nice land and resources, which I suspect has a lot to do with why he's in the top three. Also interesting are those two large islands that, for some reason, are as yet uninhabited except, perhaps, for barbarians. Each one has a couple of handy resources--gems on one, incense on the other. And once again, seafood to support the cities.

Perhaps I should prioritize sending a Settler down to gem island ASAP before either Mehmed or Hammy beat me to it. If barbs are there, I may have to send Berserkers first.

Here's a look at the Germans, Spanish, and Carthaginians:

ALC20_930AD_18.jpg


There isn't much that's tempting about Spain. But look how Hannibal managed to expand and cut off poor Bismarck! I know you can't see its full name, but is that city north of Hippo a former barb city? If so, that would certainly explain how this came about.

And yes, Hannibal probably has the best land mass on the map. I can already see a couple of candidates for my beloved riverside ironworks city. I still have that iron deal going with him. I know, I know... but cripes, he offered me all his GPT and surplus resources for it when I revised it! Dang.

And finally, here's another territory that's ripe for settlement.

ALC20_930AD_19.jpg


The island with the barb city doesn't have much to recommend it besides the sheep, but the smaller island to the east has whales and two fish. (There's another island to the NE of me that can also claim whales, but it's a 1-tile island with no other resources.) So this is another possibility for settlement thanks to that Astronomy gambit.

Okay, now here's a quick look at some of the advisors, starting with domestic to see the current builds:

ALC20_930AD_20.jpg


I mostly focused on infrastructure this round, but look! I'm building my first Berserker!

Civics:

ALC20_930AD_21.jpg


So I want to switch back to Representation after my brief foray into Universal Suffrage to help out Bjorgvin. I'll probably stick with the other civics, though, even Paganism. Why?

ALC20_930AD_25.jpg


Well, as you can see, I still only have Roosevelt's useless little faith in my cities thus far. No way am I converting to that just so I can tick everybody else off. And without a state religion, a religious civic makes no sense. Well, except for Free Religion, but I don't have access to that yet. If things stay this way, though, I'll probably go FR very early in this game.

On the other hand, I now have access to Vassalage and Theology, so I could also say to heck with diplomacy, spread Christianity, and build uber-promoted units in all my cities if we decide to pursue the military path in the next round.

Foreign advisor, Glance:

ALC20_930AD_22.jpg


A couple of shifts there, but they may not be permanent.

Active trade deals:

ALC20_930AD_23.jpg


With all the elephants I'm trading away, I may need to research Engineering soon and send along some Pikemen if and when I attack anybody.

Techs:

ALC20_930AD_24.jpg


Not doin' too badly here, I think. I think I have an excellent chance at Liberalism, even without using Great Scientists to lightbulb any of its techs. Though I am waiting to see if I get a GS out of Nidaros in a few turns before researching Education. Hence my pursuit of Guilds. But if anyone has any better research targets, I'm all ears.

I like the idea of Chemistry from Liberalism for extra-early Privateers. Sounds like fun. Since I won't be warring against everybody at the same time, those units would give me a chance to cripple my rivals, especially with the importance of seafood on this map to many cities and civs.

Demographics:

ALC20_930AD_26.jpg


First in GNP and production--amazing, frankly. I can't remember the last time I had that this early in a game. Looks like the military could use a little beefing up, however.

By the way, I don't get the meaning of the imports/exports line--I mean, I've got trade routes comin' out my yin yang and I'm trading resources all over the place, so what's that about?

So like I said, a short round, but I think I'm coming up on some critical decisions that must be made in the next round that will largely determine how the rest of the game is played.

On the one hand, I have some overseas territory and resources (incense, gems, whales, sheep) that I could claim by peacefully REXing thanks to my fast Galleons. On the other hand, the next round could see the Berserkers terrorizing coastlines all over the world. This will affect my civics decisions, of course, as well as builds and diplomacy. And based upon the maps, techs, and so on, who would be my first target(s)?

Should be interesting!

By the way, I'm out of town on business tomorrow, so I won't be posting a round update until Thursday at the earliest. So we have some time to discuss our options.
 
I still think a run for free Chemistry via Liberalism is the way to go, you can add frigates to your Galleon/Zerker stack to knock down cultural defenses (at least some of the way), and make money by blockading the AI with privateers. The Liberalism race looks pretty solidly won already by the rate you're teching, and since it's only two extra techs to prereq Chemisty (Engineering + Gunpowder), I don't think it's too much of a risk.

EDIT: Tech path for this would be: Engineering, Education, Gunpowder, Liberalism.
 
I would say Surya is the best target. For the following reasons:
1. No one knows him so no negative diplomacy points there if you attack him.
2. Closest to home
3. Very nice developped land with good cities and mutared cottages
4. Gold and wine resources to boost hapiness
5. Springboard to America the second best target
6. Backwards civ so no tech trading partner
7. Easy to invade (straight line down)
 
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