How to bring this one back on track

Beorn-eL-Feared

Idiot riding pedals
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Spoiler quick summary :
Existential civ question: What decisions win a BtS game, in general?
There's illustrative pictures below for the less patient of you guys, as well as a save.


Hello guys (and gals ... or wasn't 'guys' gender neutral in the first place?),

By "this one", I really mean me.

I consider myself a C3C (not CIV!) veteran but haven't played a lot of CIV ever at all. I know basic stuff, I can run a SE (I think) and I almost won an OCC space race with Caesar Augustus on Prince, the last time I tried (Hannibal beat me by 3 turns, him bastard). I'm not as good with CE but I haven't practised it, being told the great virtues (less and less sure about that, too, but this is not the quarrel here ...) of SE over it.

So I'm trying Emperor, I haven't beat Monarch decisively yet but I don't feel like it's a challenge either so I climbed up. The thing is, I'm not quite sure I know what I'm doing at all whatsoever. The self-diagnostic is that I don't know what "wins" in this game, so I'm all off-track.

First, you have to actually manage your economy, unlike in C3C where you just go for more. That's a nasty change if you ask me. But I end up being able to manage.

I think I have city placement down good (well, good enough) and the opening too (to rush or not to rush, when and how to decide whether to go Quecha/axe/chariot rush or some kind of Oracle/MC/Pyramid slinger).

What completely bugs me is the matter of when to take game plan decisions and how do you choose the path to take. When I start a game, I know I need to scout, find resources and opponents, figure out who's in the weakest position (resource and terrain-wise) and move accordingly (AI is weaker = rush, I am weaker = grab better land and build up).

But I have no idea when you take these decisions regarding long-term game strategy. When do you decide it's time for domination or conquest? From what point in the tech tree can you decide you need to beeline for cavalries, or for the UN, or for a space race edge? It always helps to "acquire" some land from the neighbours, granted. But at what point do you need to start planning for a cultural win or a launch, and what makes it efficient?


Here's what I believe is a good illustration.

This game is on Emperor level, continents, normal speed. All screenshots and the save are taken from the 1640AD mark.

Spoiler a game's summary with pictures :
Early game: Quechas scout around, find out that Rome is on a plain hills with a cow plains right besides. They'll have crazy defence with archers and by the time I pop city #2 it's clear I don't have metal. Toku is too far away and chariots would be hard to pull on Caesar. So I go for Oracle/Pyramids.

Spoiler the capital's location :


Eventually, my capital relaxes its wonder aspirations and goes fully military. Tiwanaku becomes my specialist farm, Pig and Corn-powered with good hills for wonder building. Philosophy kicks in and SE starts paying off.

Spoiler the capital proper :


Early-Mid game: representation gets me a tech lead over Toku: we both have trebs and elephants but I have maces and he doesn't have samurais. I religiously sent quechas to upgrade against wave after wave of barbarians so I have several Quechas over 5XP that I upgrade to C1-CR2 maces. Between this and trebuchets, the war easily goes to my favor. Thus, 10 turns of peace + swift re-declaration after, the whole peninsula was mine and Toku answered to me.

Spoiler Japanese peninsula :


Late-Mid game: here we are. I was first to Liberalism, thanks to Japan's rich contribution of cottages, Colossus, Mausoleum and dyes. Rome was always one step ahead of me in military techs, however, and I couldn't fancy taking them on.

Spoiler Tech situation :




My SE's backbone, Tiwanaku, is being grossly overrun by Rome's capital (Hermitage :ar15::gripe: ). It dwindles and loses steam, becoming a good but steadily decreasing research city, instead of a great one. This is despite running free speech, btw.

Spoiler crumbling Tiwa :


So I've got a competitive empire, in a very close race for the top3 spots with Justinian and Augustus.

Spoiler empire's economics snapshot :



I'm eras behind Rome in military, however, as he has probably around 50 rifles to my 2 dozen medieval units.

Spoiler military comparison :



The world could care less for me but I'm not a UN win guy. I would like to either do a military (probably hard on this spot) or a spaceship win.

Spoiler not a UN win :


So the question is: what do I need to do to ensure I have a grasp on either, any, win condition?

What wins?

The question is both aimed at the present game and as a starting point for discussion. I'm much less interested in this game than in the principles of macro strategy.

I could restate it as:
What was the turning point of one or many games, pursuing such and such VC's, that led to a win?
or
When do you decide what VC to aim for, in a game, and when does it start coming to life?

Spoiler disclaimer :
Btw, I started reading a few spoilers and shadow-played them and it was instructive but it mostly mechanically: I now know a lot more about city placement and how religions/corporations work, I know you need to whip just before 2 pop becomes 1 for max overflow, etc. Thanks to everyone that wrote on these boards, I am definitely up to emperor play.

But it was generally too easy to play, too hard or too linear for me to grasp the underlying thought process of the games. The ALC series is a tremendously long read and I'm FAR from being through with it, it's helped a lot too.


Thanks a lot for any and all help :thumbsup:
 

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Spoiler :
well, you get some sort of plan early on - this is based on intuition mostly, since you can't possibly predict how the game will play out, who will eat whose land and get powerful, who will get all the good GP wonders (AIs just build random crap it seems)

early on, you're just looking to establish yourself

for example, I had a game back in warlords with a ridiculously good fish/clams start with plain hills around and marble in one of the plain tiles

that early on, I had no idea whether I will have to fight for more land later on and whether my GP-farm-to-be capital would be enough to outtech the AIs

based on the distance to my nearest neighbour, I figured that each AI won't be getting that much land... half of it was tundra too 'cause the climate turned out to be cold (I set it on random just for kicks)

or maybe not seeing enough empty land prevented the "shet shet gotta expand fast" light from going off

so a random plan was born

I thought, hey, Imma pump my capital full of scientists and focus on that first and foremost, and plant some preferrably good production cities for a space race victory

there was a basic plan that I literally pulled out of my ass, just because I felt like it

so I guess I really don't know where that first plan comes from
but my simple answer to your question is this - every single turn (if you aren't afraid of going mad of course)
you evaluate what changed in the game - tech situation, who started gaining power, maybe look at your cities and suddenly realize "hey! I couldn't afford a war back then, and thought I wouldn't be able to afford one in 20 turns either, but my prediction of what their army would be like in 20 turns was way off, and now I guess I can attack and benefit from it - time to mobilize"

basically, I don't think you can stick to a plan
well you can, but every once in a while you gotta take a broad look at things and say "oh man if I do this instead, it will help me that much more"
it's so much more pleasant to just make a solid plan and sail with it, but you really have to be on the lookout for a better plan that might've become possible - either because smth happened in the game, or because your past prediction of the "x turns after" situation doesn't reflect reality anymore now that x turns passed and you aren't where you thought you'd be

I really don't think you can predict things accurately enough to make a plan
(I think your words "I'm not quite sure I know what I'm doing at all whatsoever" expressed precisely this sentiment, how frustrating it can be to try to make a decision and not be able to tell what exactly is going to come out of it)

this game is too complex and you just have to constantly evaluate the situation if you want to figure out the most certain path to victory

lol or maybe I'm just not that good of a civ player
lost that game by 5 turns btw, almost outteched an emperor level Cathy with 3 vassals with just my megascientists and some mediocre cities
 
Spoiler :
i'm not quite sure I know what I'm talking about, it's 3am on a saturday night and I have a million thoughts flying through my head right now trying to make them fit into a nice pattern so I can make some sense of everything

so I would appreciate it if you could tell me, does my first post make sense to you?

if it does, I can add that too much optimizing can drive you mad
for example, I spent 20 minutes one time thinking about whether I should give a civ a tech for free (note that "no brokering" is on)

pros:
+ he can't research it and sell it to the tech leader (who for some reason neglected it)
+ possible diplo bonus (more likely to fight on my side when a war comes)
+ smth else that I forget
cons:
- might be more of a threat if he's more advanced
- might research smth after that tech and sell THAT to tech leader eventually

and the main point is, those pros and cons have different weights depending on what your plan is - take the leader out now? wait for tanks? wait till he starts a war and jump in? try to just outtech him without war?

and if you try to find the best possible way out of the myriad of possible ways you can go mad

so I decided, screw this, screw you Julius, you aren't getting any techs for free you jerk, and I stuck with my decision and my old plan (w/e it was, I think it was "take the leader out after I vassalize someone else with that someone's help") without worrying that some other path might've been better or more likely to work

and that was my one-time run-in with thinking about this game way way way more than is healthy for an average person

it looks like you got the hang of the basic and not so basic things

being able to spot opportunities will come with experience I guess
I am, for one, all about theoretical bull!@#$
I've only actually played 5 emperor games of civ IV ever, 2 of which I won (and in one I was just messing around with many many artists after my peaceful "out of ass" plan of getting some cities near my capital to flip to me failed - yea I expanded in a strip that's why there were cities there)

so I have a lot of thoughts but not enough experience to base anything definite on (ie, being able to figure out a good plan and not have to change it later on)

and it looks like you too are fairly intelligent, but just haven't played enough
which is why I'm writing all this stuff, 'cause I thought "hmm what this guy is saying is striking a note with me")

anyway
your (or someone else's) thoughts on all this bull!@#$ I so valiantly typed up at 3 am on a saturday night?


after typing a whole lot of nonsense (smth I do when I'm tired, and it's 4:40 in the morning now, and I can't fall asleep which is why I'm on this board), nonsense that I decided to hide in a spoiler, here's my answer

when do you decide what to aim for and how?
when you feel that you can make a reasonably accurate prediction about how hard/risky going for each VC is
early in the game this is probably not possible
and as you get to know the game better, and can tell from experience what will probably come out of a certain situation, you'll be able to make these decisions earlier
and the plans you choose will probably start becoming closer and closer to the actual best plan to pursue (which probably does exist, even if it's one in a million, 'cause in the end the game is just a bunch of math and probability)

there, that feels like a logical conclusion

it sounds like you're pretty intelligent but lack actual experience with the game, and I think that I know exactly what you mean when you say "What completely bugs me is the matter of when to take game plan decisions and how do you choose the path to take"

how are we supposed to make decisions if we can't predict what those decisions will bring?

so anyway, my conclusion once again - experience will help you predict things, and based on your perception on how easy/risky or w/e it will probably be to win in a certain way, you can make your decision

theorizing about it just drives you mad
 
You need to try something lower than Emperor. I'm a CIV veteran, started with the original, but have never been a power-player like many here are - and I'm confortable at Noble level. Had a couple of victories, several losses, and I'm nowhere near ready to step up. Try the lower level settings first, get a feel for the game.

EDIT: stupid double posting internets.
 
yea, getting a feel for the game is exactly what you need, but it's not necessary for that to try lower levels

he seems to be doing not too bad if I'm looking at those screenshots right
 
yea, getting a feel for the game is exactly what you need, but it's not necessary for that to try lower levels

and that was my one-time run-in with thinking about this game way way way more than is healthy for an average person

"hmm what this guy is saying is striking a note with me"

so anyway, my conclusion once again - experience will help you predict things, and based on your perception on how easy/risky or w/e it will probably be to win in a certain way, you can make your decision
:D

Thanks a lot, this certainly does help.

A friend on another forum (he's insanely good so I'll heed his advice carefully) took a look and pointed out several key improvements to be made: turn off the SE valve, run more trade-friendly civics/religions, be more picky about buildings (Specialize!!) and find a way to go to war with Augustus if one is available.

While not macro-strategy comments, these are practical solutions following a decision to win peacefully. I guess I was too focused on managing a narcissit empire and forgot there were AI's out there ... C3C stigma.

Talking of C3C, another difference he pointed out was: catch-up play is really hard if not by military means. No rail/artillery/infantry come-from-behind conquest wins in BtS apparently. And at that stage in the game, bulbing techs for trade is not the most feasible thing in the world.

I'll keep banging my forehead at emperor, probably with another leader ... this game was really health poor, it made me wish for the Expansive trait.

So again, :thanx:
 
Talking of C3C, another difference he pointed out was: catch-up play is really hard if not by military means. No rail/artillery/infantry come-from-behind conquest wins in BtS apparently. And at that stage in the game, bulbing techs for trade is not the most feasible thing in the world.

It can be done though - there's an earlier thread where I posted a screenshot of my first domination victory - the power rating has me at a third of Shaka's, yet I crushed him in a modern war.
 
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