Beorn-eL-Feared
Idiot riding pedals
Spoiler quick summary :
Existential civ question: What decisions win a BtS game, in general?
There's illustrative pictures below for the less patient of you guys, as well as a save.
There's illustrative pictures below for the less patient of you guys, as well as a save.
Hello guys (and gals ... or wasn't 'guys' gender neutral in the first place?),
By "this one", I really mean me.
I consider myself a C3C (not CIV!) veteran but haven't played a lot of CIV ever at all. I know basic stuff, I can run a SE (I think) and I almost won an OCC space race with Caesar Augustus on Prince, the last time I tried (Hannibal beat me by 3 turns, him bastard). I'm not as good with CE but I haven't practised it, being told the great virtues (less and less sure about that, too, but this is not the quarrel here ...) of SE over it.
So I'm trying Emperor, I haven't beat Monarch decisively yet but I don't feel like it's a challenge either so I climbed up. The thing is, I'm not quite sure I know what I'm doing at all whatsoever. The self-diagnostic is that I don't know what "wins" in this game, so I'm all off-track.
First, you have to actually manage your economy, unlike in C3C where you just go for more. That's a nasty change if you ask me. But I end up being able to manage.
I think I have city placement down good (well, good enough) and the opening too (to rush or not to rush, when and how to decide whether to go Quecha/axe/chariot rush or some kind of Oracle/MC/Pyramid slinger).
What completely bugs me is the matter of when to take game plan decisions and how do you choose the path to take. When I start a game, I know I need to scout, find resources and opponents, figure out who's in the weakest position (resource and terrain-wise) and move accordingly (AI is weaker = rush, I am weaker = grab better land and build up).
But I have no idea when you take these decisions regarding long-term game strategy. When do you decide it's time for domination or conquest? From what point in the tech tree can you decide you need to beeline for cavalries, or for the UN, or for a space race edge? It always helps to "acquire" some land from the neighbours, granted. But at what point do you need to start planning for a cultural win or a launch, and what makes it efficient?
Here's what I believe is a good illustration.
This game is on Emperor level, continents, normal speed. All screenshots and the save are taken from the 1640AD mark.
Spoiler a game's summary with pictures :
Early game: Quechas scout around, find out that Rome is on a plain hills with a cow plains right besides. They'll have crazy defence with archers and by the time I pop city #2 it's clear I don't have metal. Toku is too far away and chariots would be hard to pull on Caesar. So I go for Oracle/Pyramids.
Eventually, my capital relaxes its wonder aspirations and goes fully military. Tiwanaku becomes my specialist farm, Pig and Corn-powered with good hills for wonder building. Philosophy kicks in and SE starts paying off.
Early-Mid game: representation gets me a tech lead over Toku: we both have trebs and elephants but I have maces and he doesn't have samurais. I religiously sent quechas to upgrade against wave after wave of barbarians so I have several Quechas over 5XP that I upgrade to C1-CR2 maces. Between this and trebuchets, the war easily goes to my favor. Thus, 10 turns of peace + swift re-declaration after, the whole peninsula was mine and Toku answered to me.
Late-Mid game: here we are. I was first to Liberalism, thanks to Japan's rich contribution of cottages, Colossus, Mausoleum and dyes. Rome was always one step ahead of me in military techs, however, and I couldn't fancy taking them on.
My SE's backbone, Tiwanaku, is being grossly overrun by Rome's capital (Hermitage ). It dwindles and loses steam, becoming a good but steadily decreasing research city, instead of a great one. This is despite running free speech, btw.
So I've got a competitive empire, in a very close race for the top3 spots with Justinian and Augustus.
I'm eras behind Rome in military, however, as he has probably around 50 rifles to my 2 dozen medieval units.
The world could care less for me but I'm not a UN win guy. I would like to either do a military (probably hard on this spot) or a spaceship win.
Spoiler the capital's location :
Eventually, my capital relaxes its wonder aspirations and goes fully military. Tiwanaku becomes my specialist farm, Pig and Corn-powered with good hills for wonder building. Philosophy kicks in and SE starts paying off.
Spoiler the capital proper :
Early-Mid game: representation gets me a tech lead over Toku: we both have trebs and elephants but I have maces and he doesn't have samurais. I religiously sent quechas to upgrade against wave after wave of barbarians so I have several Quechas over 5XP that I upgrade to C1-CR2 maces. Between this and trebuchets, the war easily goes to my favor. Thus, 10 turns of peace + swift re-declaration after, the whole peninsula was mine and Toku answered to me.
Spoiler Japanese peninsula :
Late-Mid game: here we are. I was first to Liberalism, thanks to Japan's rich contribution of cottages, Colossus, Mausoleum and dyes. Rome was always one step ahead of me in military techs, however, and I couldn't fancy taking them on.
Spoiler Tech situation :
My SE's backbone, Tiwanaku, is being grossly overrun by Rome's capital (Hermitage ). It dwindles and loses steam, becoming a good but steadily decreasing research city, instead of a great one. This is despite running free speech, btw.
Spoiler crumbling Tiwa :
So I've got a competitive empire, in a very close race for the top3 spots with Justinian and Augustus.
Spoiler empire's economics snapshot :
I'm eras behind Rome in military, however, as he has probably around 50 rifles to my 2 dozen medieval units.
Spoiler military comparison :
The world could care less for me but I'm not a UN win guy. I would like to either do a military (probably hard on this spot) or a spaceship win.
Spoiler not a UN win :
What wins?
The question is both aimed at the present game and as a starting point for discussion. I'm much less interested in this game than in the principles of macro strategy.
I could restate it as:
What was the turning point of one or many games, pursuing such and such VC's, that led to a win?
or
When do you decide what VC to aim for, in a game, and when does it start coming to life?
Spoiler disclaimer :
Btw, I started reading a few spoilers and shadow-played them and it was instructive but it mostly mechanically: I now know a lot more about city placement and how religions/corporations work, I know you need to whip just before 2 pop becomes 1 for max overflow, etc. Thanks to everyone that wrote on these boards, I am definitely up to emperor play.
But it was generally too easy to play, too hard or too linear for me to grasp the underlying thought process of the games. The ALC series is a tremendously long read and I'm FAR from being through with it, it's helped a lot too.
But it was generally too easy to play, too hard or too linear for me to grasp the underlying thought process of the games. The ALC series is a tremendously long read and I'm FAR from being through with it, it's helped a lot too.
Thanks a lot for any and all help