ALC Game 21: Zulus/Shaka
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
This is way too cool a coincindence to rename the city.
Andvare
King
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2007
- Messages
- 788
Indeed.
My Google-Fu might be rusty, but it ain't too rusty to Google a few names.
Incidentally, I opened the map in world builder, to see if Sisiutil were isolated, not realizing that it was an inland map...
Safe to say, I would have put my first city so that the iron and stone where in the BFC
.
My Google-Fu might be rusty, but it ain't too rusty to Google a few names.
Incidentally, I opened the map in world builder, to see if Sisiutil were isolated, not realizing that it was an inland map...
Safe to say, I would have put my first city so that the iron and stone where in the BFC
.LightSpectra
me autem minui
Move your capital city to Golden Calf.
slaze
Deity
whoops, missed the show
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Messages
- 12,418
I'd pump out a few more Cheap Workers to hook up resources fast, and a 2 or 3 more Settlers to pick up a few more spots, and then go to Full scale War production, Inkhandas-> Impis+chariots->Impis+Horse Archer, a Classical Blitzkrieg. (Cover Impis Initially, CR ones later)
Hopefully HC has gotten himself a few Wonders to take by the time you declare.
But while building up get a scout out to watch his mines (if possible), so you can be prepared.
Techs to get
Pottery (Granaries)
Masonry (to use the Stone)
Horseback Riding
And then off on the Construction route for the Classical Juggernauts (Elephants and Catapults)
Hopefully HC has gotten himself a few Wonders to take by the time you declare.
But while building up get a scout out to watch his mines (if possible), so you can be prepared.
Techs to get
Pottery (Granaries)
Masonry (to use the Stone)
Horseback Riding
And then off on the Construction route for the Classical Juggernauts (Elephants and Catapults)
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
I agree. I'm not sure where this Oracle-madness came from. I rarely bother with that thing anymore unless I am, as you say, playing as an industrious leader and have marble lying around.
Tech-wise, it sounds like Pottery should come next, and Horseback Riding has been recommended since the pre-game thread, so I will likely follow that path in the next round. Writing will likely follow those two techs, though I might stop for Masonry along the way to get the stone near Bulawayo. Ikhandas are indeed priority builds, seeing as how I'll soon be able to churn out Impis.
And uMgungdolovu will remain, seeing as how its name is, indeed, somewhat appropriate.
Commodore Nate
Warlord
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2008
- Messages
- 204
It must be the allure of the free tech. I know I use it often for a CoL slingshot.
OTAKUjbski
TK421
BARBEERIAN
Prince
For me I like Oracle for CoL when I want to wage war since it can be a slow tech to research when the slider drops. Prophet points and a religion are always nice too (even with the plans to take the Incan one). 2 shrines is big money if you take the time to spread a few missionaries around.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
LightSpectra
me autem minui
You mean uMgungdolovu.
Your current capital only harvests one resource (wheat), whereas uMgungwhatever
has four, including gold. Better for research if it has a palace, right?I reckon it's better to move the capital when you've got a few more cities, and the hammer investment makes less difference.
Besides, I'm not sure it's a good idea anyway. uMgu is further away from Huyana than the current capital - so distance maintenence would be higher. I say, wait till after the war is done, and then start thinking about moving the palace.
Besides, I'm not sure it's a good idea anyway. uMgu is further away from Huyana than the current capital - so distance maintenence would be higher. I say, wait till after the war is done, and then start thinking about moving the palace.
BARBEERIAN
Prince
IMO moving the capital to Umgungundlovu probably isn't worth it. For the maintenance reasons mentioned above, and because it doesn't have as much long term hammers, commerce, or health as Ulundi. It'll be a bit better early on but not for long before Ulundi eclipses it. The earlier Ulundi gets fully cottaged the sooner that will be.
Ulundi:
Rivered Grass/Floodplains for cottages = 7.
Commerce Resources: None
Unworkable tiles: 0
Forests: 13 (less now since there's been chopping)
Levee Hammers: 13
Umgungundlovu:
Rivered Grass/Floodplaisn for cottages = 5;
Commerce Resources: Rivered Desert Goldmine
Unworkable tiles: 4 (maybe 3 if oil shows up in one of those desert tiles)
Forests: 5
Levee Hammers: 11
Ulundi:
Rivered Grass/Floodplains for cottages = 7.
Commerce Resources: None
Unworkable tiles: 0
Forests: 13 (less now since there's been chopping)
Levee Hammers: 13
Umgungundlovu:
Rivered Grass/Floodplaisn for cottages = 5;
Commerce Resources: Rivered Desert Goldmine
Unworkable tiles: 4 (maybe 3 if oil shows up in one of those desert tiles)
Forests: 5
Levee Hammers: 11
Berkobob
Warlord
New poster, threads like these are excellent for newer players, I have gone back and read all of these ALC threads, learned quite a few things (especially about the basics of SE, beelining and crucial early planning of cities, so thanks to all the posters for helping me move up a level 
That said, I'm still only at Prince level.
Back to the current game, I dont think you should move your capital eastwards as this will further increase the maintenance you pay if and when you conquer any of HC's cities, as pointed out by oldsaxon.
IMO, chop/whip an army of swords/impis, take the fight to HC, then reassess your next move based upon the lie of the land (washington looks like he may have room to expand and become quite large, if he expands in your direction he may have to go before he can tech up too far
)
Of course, like all things, it depends.
That said, I'm still only at Prince level.
Back to the current game, I dont think you should move your capital eastwards as this will further increase the maintenance you pay if and when you conquer any of HC's cities, as pointed out by oldsaxon.
IMO, chop/whip an army of swords/impis, take the fight to HC, then reassess your next move based upon the lie of the land (washington looks like he may have room to expand and become quite large, if he expands in your direction he may have to go before he can tech up too far
)Of course, like all things, it depends.
Lord Chambers
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2001
- Messages
- 1,004
These threads are indeed excellent for new players. Hence several posts over the last couple pages which disparage the land available for settling, focus on obtaining particular resources we have little use for (horses?), and even encourage researching Archery early.
My god, the land on this map is probably the most productive swath I've seen in my last 10 games, anywhere on the map. And you happen to be the Zulu, which are expansive and have the -20% maintence barracks (which is the only unique building sped by a leader's trait, is it not?) This map is a no-brainer for rapid expansion, because your enemies are distant, and the land could hardly be better. Yet, people are really eager to try and lead you off a cliff. Who was it who, after the map was revealed, said we were being pushed off to the WEST? My god.
Build many cities. Do it quickly. Use the oracle to snag courthouses as your research rate plummets. Don't go to war over...nothing. Only go to war when you need to obtain more land. Also, you don't need archers on a pangea-type map. Your opponents are distant, but you're not on an island. You're not going to be fighting axemen. At least, these were the self-evident truths to me when I play this game and dropped my jaw at what land is available. I thought "what a boring ACL it'll be," since the game was given to you at map start.
I really wish I were as speechless as I was on pages 4-8, but sorry, this is the reality. By the time you get to democracy and steam power (levee), your flood plained cottages will be the most productive tiles in the game. All you need(ed) to do is secure the land and not lose it in a war before that point.
My god, the land on this map is probably the most productive swath I've seen in my last 10 games, anywhere on the map. And you happen to be the Zulu, which are expansive and have the -20% maintence barracks (which is the only unique building sped by a leader's trait, is it not?) This map is a no-brainer for rapid expansion, because your enemies are distant, and the land could hardly be better. Yet, people are really eager to try and lead you off a cliff. Who was it who, after the map was revealed, said we were being pushed off to the WEST? My god.
Build many cities. Do it quickly. Use the oracle to snag courthouses as your research rate plummets. Don't go to war over...nothing. Only go to war when you need to obtain more land. Also, you don't need archers on a pangea-type map. Your opponents are distant, but you're not on an island. You're not going to be fighting axemen. At least, these were the self-evident truths to me when I play this game and dropped my jaw at what land is available. I thought "what a boring ACL it'll be," since the game was given to you at map start.
I really wish I were as speechless as I was on pages 4-8, but sorry, this is the reality. By the time you get to democracy and steam power (levee), your flood plained cottages will be the most productive tiles in the game. All you need(ed) to do is secure the land and not lose it in a war before that point.
I semi-agree with your points, except this one. You're overlooking the potential threat posed by the Barbarians. Trying to rely on Warriors to defend your empire + expansion is just asking to run into trouble. Going for Archers was a smart move.
Bh
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Round 3: 1200 BC to 155 BC (51 turns)
Before I begin, a brief response to Lord Chambers: I thought I made it clear in the previous round that Archers saved my sorry butt from barbs. Well, in case I didn't, they did. If I'd waited until I had horses hooked up (which you called unnecessary--just how was I supposed to defend myself?), I'd be rolling a restart right now. Bhruic's right, researching Archery at the start of the last round was the way to go, so full credit and a tip o' the ALC hat to those who recommended it.
As I started the round, my Warriors were out exploring. One of them came across this very tempting situation:
SOOOO tempting, so very tempting... I could have snagged at least one Worker, perhaps even two. But I want to lull Huayna into a false sense of security. I had a close look at his iron resource, and it's in the centre of his territory and will be very, very difficult to reach and pillage. Of course, this is Aggressive AI, so he might build units like crazy anyway, but I decided to leave the Workers alone for now. I can build my own cheaply enough.
My next tech came along, and none too soon. You can see that I'm in the red even at 40% research.
And my wandering Warriors also met up with the seventh and final civ on this inland sea map:
And interesting mix: 3 vanilla leaders, 1 from Warlords (2 counting myself), and 2 from BtS. And the only Aggressive Aggressive AI is Hammurabi.
Back home, I was starting to take advantage of the whip to generate units and contribute overflow hammers into granaries, which would in turn help me whip again that much sooner. I often find, in fact, once I have granaries that I grow the population back sooner than the unhappiness goes away--though that does depend, of course, on the food level of the tiles and how I work them.
In most games, by this point, I've already researched Alphabet. It was taking some getting used to the current situation, where other civs have it before me. But that just meant they came to me offering tech trades.
I accepted this one as it would allow me to build libraries and run scientists. That would help with research while I wait for the cottages to mature. I also traded Mysticism to George for Fishing--I won't need that tech for some time, but what the heck, it wasn't like he wanted Iron Working for it.
I finished researching my next technology, to get that stone quarried south of Bulawaya.
The downside of Alphabet: some civs are willing to trade techs, others demand them.
I caved. I'm focusing on attacking Huayna soon, so I'd rather not have the distraction of a war with someone else.
Meanwhile, I'd sent an Impi westwards to watch that copper tile, to see if Huayna claimed it. It turns out George beat him to it.
I pulled the Impi back to rest right next to Huayna's horse tile. So the above means that Huayna has only the one source of metal. I think my first action in the war should not be to take a city, but to pillage that tile, and position some units next to it to keep Incan Workers away.
Islam was becoming the dominant religion, so when Peter showed up nudging me along, I agreed.
Three of my cities had Islam at this point, the only exception being Nabamba. So it made sense, and earned me a +1 diplomatic point with the Russian. You never know when that might come in handy. BTW, Washington went Muslim shortly after this too, leaving Huayna as the lone Confucian, and meaning very little diplomatic repercussions for DOW on him.
However, the Apostolic Palace could become a problem later on; if everyone stays Muslim and I'm attacking one of their number, then I could face those annoying AP votes to stop the war. I'll just have to ensure that the Zulu empire grows large enough to dominate the voting.
And I finished researching my third and final tech of the round:
I know several of you were urging me to go after the Oracle, but Huayna built it about 1/2 way through the round, so I don't think I ever really had a chance--only if I'd abandoned the pursuit of Impis completely, which doesn't make sense for this leader. Like I said, I only pursue the Oracle these days if I have some sort of an inside track on getting it--I start with Mysticism, or I have marble, or I'm Industrious, or better yet, some combination of those things. Otherwise, at Emperor level, it's too great a detour/cost of both flasks and hammers.
I ended the round on the very next turn, because I need help with an important decision. Also because 50-odd turns is about as long as I want a round to go before posting it.
First, then, here's a look at the map of Zululand.
I've explored all the way around the coastline of the inland sea, and my 2 Warriors (they are a hardier breed than Scouts, albeit slower) are now busy exploring that last big chunk of hidden land to my northeast.
My earlier decision to not steal Workers from Huayna appears to be paying off:
His other cities appear to be just as weakly defended, but my Impis will snoop around a bit during the early part of the next round to double-check.
Now, I have an important decision to make regarding a tech trade. Here's a look at the tech board.
So going after HBR looks like a good idea. All the other civs researched Alphabet instead, with the sole exception of Huayna, and I'm just going to kill him anyway.
Wang Kon is willing to offer me either of these tech trades.
So the question is, which one to take? (Remember that the No Tech Brokering option is on, so I can't trade away whichever tech I obtain from Wang Kon.)
My own inclination is to trade HBR for Mathematics. That will put me one tech closer to Construction for Catapults and War Elephants, not to mention saving me 19 or so turns of research. As I mentioned, everyone but Huayna has Alphabet, so I can already trade techs with all the other civs. Also, I'm wary of trading away a tech (Pottery) that will allow its recipient to fully leverage his traits. (This is another bone-headed maneuver on the part of the AI, isn't it? Financial Wang Kon has not researched Pottery yet?!?)
However, no Alphabet means I have no spies. And I'll have to obtain it sometime. Also, forgoing Alphabet for even longer means I'll likely be letting someone else build the Great Library. But as I pointed out regarding the Oracle, I'm not Industrious, nor do I have marble (yet). I'll just have to play like Shaka and take my wonders from the cold, dead hands of my victims. Bwa hah hah...
Also, should I trade HBR to either Peter or George for Sailing? Is there really a point, on this map? Then again, it would be nice to get everything I can for researching that expensive tech on my own. And remember that they wouldn't be able to trade it away.
The other decision point is how to prosecute the war against the Incas. I have a stack assembling in Nobamba, and I can now build Horse Archers--though I'd like to build Stables first. Should I wait for Construction for Cats and Hephalumps, or should I just bloody GET ON WITH IT?!? If so, how? Remember Huayna's capital is a holy city, so its cultural defenses will be quite high; taking it may have to wait until I have Catapults. Will it mostly be a pillaging war until then?
Before I begin, a brief response to Lord Chambers: I thought I made it clear in the previous round that Archers saved my sorry butt from barbs. Well, in case I didn't, they did. If I'd waited until I had horses hooked up (which you called unnecessary--just how was I supposed to defend myself?), I'd be rolling a restart right now. Bhruic's right, researching Archery at the start of the last round was the way to go, so full credit and a tip o' the ALC hat to those who recommended it.
As I started the round, my Warriors were out exploring. One of them came across this very tempting situation:
SOOOO tempting, so very tempting... I could have snagged at least one Worker, perhaps even two. But I want to lull Huayna into a false sense of security. I had a close look at his iron resource, and it's in the centre of his territory and will be very, very difficult to reach and pillage. Of course, this is Aggressive AI, so he might build units like crazy anyway, but I decided to leave the Workers alone for now. I can build my own cheaply enough.
My next tech came along, and none too soon. You can see that I'm in the red even at 40% research.
And my wandering Warriors also met up with the seventh and final civ on this inland sea map:
And interesting mix: 3 vanilla leaders, 1 from Warlords (2 counting myself), and 2 from BtS. And the only Aggressive Aggressive AI is Hammurabi.
Back home, I was starting to take advantage of the whip to generate units and contribute overflow hammers into granaries, which would in turn help me whip again that much sooner. I often find, in fact, once I have granaries that I grow the population back sooner than the unhappiness goes away--though that does depend, of course, on the food level of the tiles and how I work them.
In most games, by this point, I've already researched Alphabet. It was taking some getting used to the current situation, where other civs have it before me. But that just meant they came to me offering tech trades.
I accepted this one as it would allow me to build libraries and run scientists. That would help with research while I wait for the cottages to mature. I also traded Mysticism to George for Fishing--I won't need that tech for some time, but what the heck, it wasn't like he wanted Iron Working for it.
I finished researching my next technology, to get that stone quarried south of Bulawaya.
The downside of Alphabet: some civs are willing to trade techs, others demand them.
I caved. I'm focusing on attacking Huayna soon, so I'd rather not have the distraction of a war with someone else.
Meanwhile, I'd sent an Impi westwards to watch that copper tile, to see if Huayna claimed it. It turns out George beat him to it.
I pulled the Impi back to rest right next to Huayna's horse tile. So the above means that Huayna has only the one source of metal. I think my first action in the war should not be to take a city, but to pillage that tile, and position some units next to it to keep Incan Workers away.
Islam was becoming the dominant religion, so when Peter showed up nudging me along, I agreed.
Three of my cities had Islam at this point, the only exception being Nabamba. So it made sense, and earned me a +1 diplomatic point with the Russian. You never know when that might come in handy. BTW, Washington went Muslim shortly after this too, leaving Huayna as the lone Confucian, and meaning very little diplomatic repercussions for DOW on him.
However, the Apostolic Palace could become a problem later on; if everyone stays Muslim and I'm attacking one of their number, then I could face those annoying AP votes to stop the war. I'll just have to ensure that the Zulu empire grows large enough to dominate the voting.
And I finished researching my third and final tech of the round:
I know several of you were urging me to go after the Oracle, but Huayna built it about 1/2 way through the round, so I don't think I ever really had a chance--only if I'd abandoned the pursuit of Impis completely, which doesn't make sense for this leader. Like I said, I only pursue the Oracle these days if I have some sort of an inside track on getting it--I start with Mysticism, or I have marble, or I'm Industrious, or better yet, some combination of those things. Otherwise, at Emperor level, it's too great a detour/cost of both flasks and hammers.
I ended the round on the very next turn, because I need help with an important decision. Also because 50-odd turns is about as long as I want a round to go before posting it.
First, then, here's a look at the map of Zululand.
I've explored all the way around the coastline of the inland sea, and my 2 Warriors (they are a hardier breed than Scouts, albeit slower) are now busy exploring that last big chunk of hidden land to my northeast.
My earlier decision to not steal Workers from Huayna appears to be paying off:
His other cities appear to be just as weakly defended, but my Impis will snoop around a bit during the early part of the next round to double-check.
Now, I have an important decision to make regarding a tech trade. Here's a look at the tech board.
So going after HBR looks like a good idea. All the other civs researched Alphabet instead, with the sole exception of Huayna, and I'm just going to kill him anyway.
Wang Kon is willing to offer me either of these tech trades.
So the question is, which one to take? (Remember that the No Tech Brokering option is on, so I can't trade away whichever tech I obtain from Wang Kon.)
My own inclination is to trade HBR for Mathematics. That will put me one tech closer to Construction for Catapults and War Elephants, not to mention saving me 19 or so turns of research. As I mentioned, everyone but Huayna has Alphabet, so I can already trade techs with all the other civs. Also, I'm wary of trading away a tech (Pottery) that will allow its recipient to fully leverage his traits. (This is another bone-headed maneuver on the part of the AI, isn't it? Financial Wang Kon has not researched Pottery yet?!?)
However, no Alphabet means I have no spies. And I'll have to obtain it sometime. Also, forgoing Alphabet for even longer means I'll likely be letting someone else build the Great Library. But as I pointed out regarding the Oracle, I'm not Industrious, nor do I have marble (yet). I'll just have to play like Shaka and take my wonders from the cold, dead hands of my victims. Bwa hah hah...
Also, should I trade HBR to either Peter or George for Sailing? Is there really a point, on this map? Then again, it would be nice to get everything I can for researching that expensive tech on my own. And remember that they wouldn't be able to trade it away.
The other decision point is how to prosecute the war against the Incas. I have a stack assembling in Nobamba, and I can now build Horse Archers--though I'd like to build Stables first. Should I wait for Construction for Cats and Hephalumps, or should I just bloody GET ON WITH IT?!? If so, how? Remember Huayna's capital is a holy city, so its cultural defenses will be quite high; taking it may have to wait until I have Catapults. Will it mostly be a pillaging war until then?
whakamole
Artful Dodger
I would advise either obtaining alphabet or researching it before you bring war to Huyana, especially if this will be a war of pillaging/attrition until you get catapults ready to go.
Why? Well, because nobody does the old attack-then-extort-for-peace quite the way I've seen it done here on the ALC threads! And with your REx draining the Zulu treasury, I think the ol "research by Impi spear" fits in quite nicely with this situation and plays to Shaka's strengths.
Think about this... with HC as financial, with the Oracle in his possession (and therefore with GP points adding up every turn)... it won't be long until he has a shrine built for his holy city. If you can keep him in a pattern of crippled war/peace cycles, not only can you take advantage of his tech gains (he's financial, so he should have quite a few that you can extort), but there's a possibility you'll be able to capture a holy city with a pre-built shrine when you finally are ready to wipe him off the map.
A longer "crippling" war with HC is possible, because you have happy resources and a religion to combat WW (not to mention a whip).
Lord Chambers may not deliver his advice with the most charm (I think he even gives VoU a run for his money!)... but I agree with him on two points. I think you should keep focusing on expansion (either through settling or warfare)... and make a beeline for CoL.
To take it a step further than LC did... Once you have those courthouses up, you not only will be helping your treasury... you'll also be building up espionage points. And I think that Shaka, with a war-like and expansive disposition, should be out for conquest and expansion as much as possible... forget the old 60% research "safety net!" Take your research rate as low as you can manage so you can grab your cities and build your units... and leave your primary research budget to extortion and espionage as you focus on your war and expansion.
Why? Well, because nobody does the old attack-then-extort-for-peace quite the way I've seen it done here on the ALC threads! And with your REx draining the Zulu treasury, I think the ol "research by Impi spear" fits in quite nicely with this situation and plays to Shaka's strengths.
Think about this... with HC as financial, with the Oracle in his possession (and therefore with GP points adding up every turn)... it won't be long until he has a shrine built for his holy city. If you can keep him in a pattern of crippled war/peace cycles, not only can you take advantage of his tech gains (he's financial, so he should have quite a few that you can extort), but there's a possibility you'll be able to capture a holy city with a pre-built shrine when you finally are ready to wipe him off the map.
A longer "crippling" war with HC is possible, because you have happy resources and a religion to combat WW (not to mention a whip).
Lord Chambers may not deliver his advice with the most charm (I think he even gives VoU a run for his money!)... but I agree with him on two points. I think you should keep focusing on expansion (either through settling or warfare)... and make a beeline for CoL.
To take it a step further than LC did... Once you have those courthouses up, you not only will be helping your treasury... you'll also be building up espionage points. And I think that Shaka, with a war-like and expansive disposition, should be out for conquest and expansion as much as possible... forget the old 60% research "safety net!" Take your research rate as low as you can manage so you can grab your cities and build your units... and leave your primary research budget to extortion and espionage as you focus on your war and expansion.
