ALC Game 21: Zulus/Shaka

One point on Pillaging improvements, you can pillage them After you raze the city and get gold if they Don't fall into your cultural borders.

I stick with the stay warring crowd, But I can see either a GA or Settling, If you have a city currently that you can see becoming a super science city, Settling would be good... that is 1 Hammer more per turn and a quicker route to Currency.

In the "Settle" case.
Revolt to HR to save 1 turn of costs... not just now but when the economic outlook is a bit worse (~7 turns till strike). Once it is bad enough (~2 turns till strike) then revolt to Caste System and start running Merchants instead of Scientists.
Keep whipping Courthouses and Units (if HC does have Elephants I'd stick with the Cat/Sword/Impi sequence... Impis will beat the phants and Cats/Swords will beat everything else)

I would go with a largely Raze strategy, essentially REX [militarily] and fill in when Economy is good.
it might be worthwhile to sell some of your lower value techs for Gold if the price is OK.

I wouldn't bulb Philosophy [YET] for a Number of Reasons
1. no one to Trade it to
2. Religion diversity wanted among the other civs... let the founder of the philosophical religion take the expense of spreading it

Since probably you have a second GS on the way, and you probably don't want a GA yet, I'd say probably Settle # 1 and Save # 2 for bulbing Philosophy later. (for some Rapid trades once someone else has founded the Philosophical religion.)

Another option: Settle BOTH GSs (one as a specialist one as an academy)
benefits,
1. allows you to get research in whatever you want (as opposed to Philosophy)
2. allows you to put 4 regular scientists to more 'productive' work on tiles for gold/hammers/whippable or Merchants (assuming Lib+2 scientists in the science city, you get +13.5 science from the Science city)
3. gives you 1 hammer in a science city


in any case you could just hang onto them for a bit... now doesn't seem like the best opportunity for Great people (unless you go for peace)

I'll defend the golden age move:

I do agree that GAs and mass whipping do not go well together. Clearly a golden age with a low population doesn't do much good, so spending a GP on a golden age should be timed for maximum benefit.

My reasoning for suggesting using the GS for a GA hasn't necessarily changed, but I would not necessarily burn him right now. None of the other options seem terribly attractive right now: we don't have a science city for settling or building an academy, and at the very least I think we should wait until someone else gets the philosophy religion before we get it (to breed unrest in the AI).

To my mind, that means that we at least wait to see what happens. Unless there is a city that we have that we KNOW will be our science city in the future (in which case I think an academy there wouldn't be a bad choice), I think we should burn the GS at the optimal time in the coming round: i.e. when our population is relatively high, and a civics change will be most beneficial.

I think you have little option but to burn the GS for the golden age.

Your economy is in shambles and you need the extra production to build those courthouses and Ikandas (Ikandae?) immediately. That and you need to disband troops and switch to lower-upkeep civics, unless it doesn't make too much of a difference. You don't have a clear science city and philosophy won't do you much good because pacifism is not a good civic to be in just after you pissed off someone. And if your science is still weak, start building workers to cottage your lands.

There are ideal rates of expansion, but often you're forced by oppertunity to expand either too quickly or too slowly, and what's done is done I guess. But now that your economy can't support your conquests, it's time to stop. You could pillage and raze, but neither will solve your problem for long, and you don't want Huayna too weak, or the balance of power will be upset.

sylvanllewelyn said:

There are ideal rates of expansion, but often you're forced by oppertunity to expand either too quickly or too slowly, and what's done is done I guess. But now that your economy can't support your conquests, it's time to stop. You could pillage and raze, but neither will solve your problem for long, and you don't want Huayna too weak, or the balance of power will be upset.

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There's no such thing as "balance of power" in this game. Even if there is, your argument is not supported by it. HC is extremely isolated diplomatically, thanks to religion, and it's just a matter of time before he will be conquered by someone--why not have it be Shaka, so that at least he benefits from the conquest, instead of others, who will inevitably be bitter rivals in the future?

Having looked at the save, I'd say the economic problems aren't as serious as they appear at first glance (certainly nothing worth wasting a Golden Age for), and can be dealt with quickly and easily by taking the following steps:

1) Switch all your Scientists to working high commerce or high production tiles - those GPP aren't going to go anywhere, and another GS won't be that helpful right now. Don't worry about research for the next few turns - the most important thing right now is getting back in the black, and Currency will take too long to be any help here (and you should be able to trade for it soon enough, I would expect).

2) Allow HC to recapture Ollyta-whatever, then retake and raze it yourself. The city is utter junk, imo, and increases maintenance costs without securing any valuable land. Offer peace for whatever HC will give (probably just Monotheism, unless you can trade for Currency first).

3) Switch all cities to building Courthouses asap, except the Capital (which should build a Temple). Saxon and Thracian can finish their current builds first, but the other cities should switch immediately. With judicious chopping and whipping you should have all the Courthouses finished in well under 10 turns.

4) If you haven't done so already, go cap-in-hand to Wang and/or Hammy - both like you, and both have cash to spare.

Hmmm. I would build the courthouses. Not really sure what else though.

Winston Hughes said:

Having looked at the save, I'd say the economic problems aren't as serious as they appear at first glance (certainly nothing worth wasting a Golden Age for), and can be dealt with quickly and easily by taking the following steps:

1) Switch all your Scientists to working high commerce or high production tiles - those GPP aren't going to go anywhere, and another GS won't be that helpful right now. Don't worry about research for the next few turns - the most important thing right now is getting back in the black, and Currency will take too long to be any help here (and you should be able to trade for it soon enough, I would expect).

2) Allow HC to recapture Ollyta-whatever, then retake and raze it yourself. The city is utter junk, imo, and increases maintenance costs without securing any valuable land. Offer peace for whatever HC will give (probably just Monotheism, unless you can trade for Currency first).

3) Switch all cities to building Courthouses asap, except the Capital (which should build a Temple). Saxon and Thracian can finish their current builds first, but the other cities should switch immediately. With judicious chopping and whipping you should have all the Courthouses finished in well under 10 turns.

4) If you haven't done so already, go cap-in-hand to Wang and/or Hammy - both like you, and both have cash to spare.

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Well, I'm facing lots of difficult decisions and everyone's given me plenty to think about, but it's tough to know which way to jump. The above sounds like a very cogent plan, though I may keep the war going if I can afford it, as some of you suggested.

The other problem is with razing cities. That just makes the AI act like a friggin' cockroach, popping up in the same place no matter how many times you whack it with the heel of a sneaker. In some games I've captured and razed a city on the same damn spot as many as a half-dozen times before I finally gave up and kept the stupid thing.

Sisiutil said:

The other problem is with razing cities. That just makes the AI act like a friggin' cockroach, popping up in the same place no matter how many times you whack it with the heel of a sneaker. In some games I've captured and razed a city on the same damn spot as many as a half-dozen times before I finally gave up and kept the stupid thing.

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If you're picking up 100+ gold each time, is that such a bad thing?

(at least at this point in this game. Your mileage may vary, offer not valid in California, New Jersey, Delaware and North Korea.)

Why did you go to war? To gain territory.
Why stop warring? You haven't changed your mind.
I hate stopping a war midstream; one finds that the cities are just as hard to take, and you've lost tempi. If necessary burn the GS for a GA when you are totally out of money.

There! At last, I've dared to post in an ALC thread

PS My Prince games are now under control, I'm thinking of moving up; thanks Sisiutil and all the others who've posted here and helped me

Sorry for the delay, everyone, but I'm encountering a severe technical issue. I can't even start up BtS.

Details: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6501525#post6501525

Sisiutil said:

Okay, it looks like I got it figured out. I downloaded and installed the latest drivers for my video card; the game is working now.

Click to expand...

So ... does that mean you're playing the next round?

These ALCs are some kind of addictive ... waiting for each new round ranks up there with waiting for my manga fix each week.

OTAKUjbski said:

So ... does that mean you're playing the next round?

These ALCs are some kind of addictive ... waiting for each new round ranks up there with waiting for my manga fix each week.

Click to expand...

Yup, I'll post it later today. I was going to play and post it yesterday, but I wound up troubleshooting all day long.

a bit late for this round...

You setup for it earlier, make the most of it now.
Send in a Spy or two.
With your financial whoos I'd be aiming for a treasury (or two).
Your (new) courthouses should make a second trip affordable.

Round 5: 460 AD to 1220 AD (63 turns) - Part 1

I started off by making a few adjustments. I noticed that Peter was willing to trade Calendar, but his price was a little high:



So I switched research to Calendar, planning to trade for it once it looked cheaper in the eyes of the AI. Interesting how the AI will no longer do that with No Tech Brokering turned on; it makes me wonder if that setting is really as challenging as some people make it out to be.

I also reassigned several scientists to work profitable tiles, so as to shore up the economy.



A few cottages, it turned out, went a long way. Good thing I didn't farm over all of them just yet.

I also went begging. You can't be too proud in this game.



And finally, I changed one civic, since it was relatively cheap to do so at this point in the game.



I decided to keep pressing Huayna rather than settling for peace. However, I also decided that those of you who thought keeping Ollantaytambo was a mistake were right, so I followed the suggestion of letting Huayna take it back, then re-capturing it and razing it.



Shortly after this, my partial research of Calendar paid off.



That worked so well that I decided to do the same thing with Currency.

You'll notice I didn't switch civics from Slavery to Caste System. Once I knew I'd get some beneficial hammer overflow, I whipped courthouses in just about every city.



That also gave my espionage a boost; by the end of the round, I began to have visibility into a few civs' research.

As with Calendar, I was able to obtain Currency at a discount thanks to a few turns of research.



Meanwhile, the war against the Incans continued. I captured a city that I decided to keep:



It's not a great city, but it earned me wine and coastal access.

It also put Huayna in a generous mood:



Two techs and 170 gold for 10 turns of peace? Heckuva deal!

Poor Huayna is just not catching a break in this game, however. A few short turns later, he got dog-piled:



I had to sit on the sidelines for a few more turns before I could get back in action. Wang managed to capture one rather insignificant Incan city down near the edge of the world, but fortunately, Cuzco remained available.

Meanwhile, I was researching Civil Service, and with one turn to go on that tech, no one else had researched Philosophy to found a religion. I suppose I could have put off finishing CS, but I was eager to reap the benefits of Bureaucracy for Ulundi. So I wound up lightbulbing Philosophy with one of my Great Scientists (I had two sitting around in the capital at this point).



On the next turn...



I now decided to use one of my Great Scientists to start a golden age. I know I could have waited until the conquest of Incan territory was complete, but I wanted to do a big civics change, as well as build units for a final surge against the Incans.



So I then made my big civics change, one that would have cost me 3 turns of anarchy without the GA:



Bureaucracy to boost the capital's production, income, and research, Caste System so I can run more specialists (Great People are starting to get expensive), and Organized Religion to accelerate builds in my Muslim cities.

The only thing left to do was to join the dog-pile.

To be continued...

Round 5: 460 AD to 1220 AD (63 turns) - Part 2

Time to die, Inca-man:



Oh, don't go looking so morose. If you'd gone Muslim like the rest of us, you wouldn't be in this fix. But oh no, you had to be all I-start-with-Mysticism-so-I'm-founding-my-own-religion-so-there. There's nothing wrong with being a rugged individualist, provided you have enough big pointy sticks to back it up. Evidently, you don't.

Next tech:



No one would trade it to me, and it's on the path to Machinery and Engineering. I decided to stick to researching military techs while using Scientists to lightbulb civilian ones (especially those on the way to Liberalism).

Speaking of which, I used my next GP (out of Ulundi) to lightbulb Paper:



After that, I assigned Ulundi's scientists to work cottages, leaving my other cities to support the specialist economy while the capital makes the most of Bureaucracy.

I made a deal with Peter for another military tech:



And then I captured Huayna's capital and holy city.



Yes, it's one tile from the coast, but that's not as big a loss on this map. The way it's looking, I'll be amazed if I build many ships. This is not a map I'd play on as Ragnar!

All that fighting spawned my next Great General. I decided to settle him:



Normally I prefer to settle GGs in coastal cities so their +2 XPs benefit naval units, but as I mentioned above, I don't anticipate leveraging a navy too much in this game. Besides, I only have one coastal city at this point, and it's not a great one. Nobamba has very good production and food support (especially now that I can chain-irrigate), so it will make a good Heroic Epic city.

Next tech:



Yippee, now I can build Macemen and Crossbows--and upgrade some of my veteran sword units. I started hoarding gold with that end in mind.

Meanwhile, I founded another city, the one down by the tundra to claim the iron and the sheep.



The economy was now in good enough shape to avoid it. I also got a random event that gave me +1 commerce on the iron tile, so what the heck. Furthermore, I was worried that the AI might claim it from me. You'll notice the ruins nearby--there was a barb city there that Peter was good enough to raze for me. I didn't want to have to go to war with a potential ally just for a lousy sheep tile.

The war continued:



I razed Machu Piccu. It doesn't have much to recommend it. Its two food tiles are shared with two other cities. Maybe if it had had seafood, I would've kept it, but it didn't, so I didn't.

Tiwanaku, however, was another story. This city was wonder-rich:



Okay, the benefits of the Oracle are negligible, but the ToA is nice (though it would have been nicer on the coast, but still). And for a warmonger to own the Statue of Zeus? Excellent! And as a bonus, I would gain a source of silk.

So Tiwanaku was the next city to fall, and I kept it.



I generated my next Great Person, but they're getting expensive. The next one won't be along for several turns.



Yup, burned him for part of Education. Should I research the rest on my own? I'm tempted to just wait for the next GS to finish it off so I can focus on researching military techs.

Speaking of which...



Oooh, Trebuchets and Pikemen--though I can now no longer build Impis. I'll probably hang on to some of the ones that I have, though--those 2 movement points do come in handy.

I next veered off my military tech path for a couple of turns to research what is, ostensibly, a civilian tech:



I have my reasons. First off, I want to build the Heroic Epic in Nobamba. Second, as I was grousing above, GPs are getting expensive; it's time to set up a GP farm, and the National Epic will help it out tremendously. I think either Balawayo or Saxon would be the best candidates, what with all those flood plains. Perhaps one of you could do a food count for each city--I suck at math, as I've already proven previously in this game.

I don't think anyone's built the Great Library yet, but I'm not going to. I liked the idea of going on a wonder moratorium for this game: never building world wonders, only capturing them. National wonders are another story, however; more on them shortly.

And at the end of the round came the end of the Incas:



I razed Vilcas, because it really doesn't have much to recommend it. I also pillaged the tile improvements around it, as I did with those around Machu Piccu.

I played one more turn to get rid of the war weariness that would throw off the game stats. Those will be displayed in a state-of-the-world post, coming up next. The saved game file is below.

The State of the World, 1220 AD

First up, the Domestic Advisor:



Mostly civilian builds, but I think that's going to have to change--big time. You'll see why shortly.

Current civics, unchanged since the big Golden Age switch:




Foreign Advisor, relations and glance:





I unfortunately earned a few demerits with some of my Muslim friends for refusing to either join them in a renewed war against Washington or to stop trading with him. I was too busy with Huayna, and America borders me to both the east and the west. Plus for much of the round I was dependent on American Silver and Dye (IIRC) to stave off war weariness--at least until after I captured the Statue of Zeus.

Washington may be my next target, since he's so disliked. That should also earn me some mutual-military-struggle bonuses to stave off the demerits I got. More on that later, when we look at the map.

Active trade deals:



I've weaned myself off of American resources, as you can see.

Speaking of Resources:



I don't need Peter's pigs anymore, so I'll have to adjust that deal and see if I can get gems from him instead. As for that silver, I'm thinking I should pry it from Washington's cold, dead fingers.

Trade route income and foreign civics:



Even with the ToA, trade routes are not a huge factor. But they can't be neglected, either.

Techs:



So with the possible exception of Hammy (who did indeed get ranked ahead of me in a "Most Advanced Civs" pop-up just before the round ended), I'm the tech leader. No one else has Philosophy, only one other civ has Paper, and remember I've got >2600 flasks stashed away towards Education, so I'm thinking I have a lock on the free Liberalism tech. Assuming I do (always dangerous, but you gotta plan ahead), what should I take as the free tech? If I can increase espionage so I can see everyone's research, I may be able to tuck away Liberalism with 1 turn to completion and use it for a late tech like Chemistry.

Military Advisor:



I managed to capture several of Huayna's Workers, so I think I'm set in that regard for quite some time.

Religion:



So I need to spread Islam to four cities in order to take full advantage of Organized Religion. I've got one missionary on his way to kwaDukuza, so hopefully he'll be successful and I'll only need three more.

Now, here's a screen that concerns me:



So despite all that effort in producing units to eliminate the Incans, I'm last in power! No wonder I'm teching ahead of the AI leaders. I think this is evidence of me not playing enough like Shaka, and not yet adjusting to the Aggressive AI setting. Good thing everyone's still Muslim, or I'd be ripe for a thumping any turn now.

Well, with a tech lead pretty much in the bag, I think it's time to focus on military builds. The Zulu frontier is expanding, and I need units in order to defend all of it. I think a military queue build followed by a civics switch for maximum XPs is in order. I'll have to see if Hammy will loosen his grip on Theology. Maybe I should research it a little, once Guilds are complete?

Demographics:



This is also a little troublesome, as I expected to be higher in the production rating. I suspect it's because of the scientist specialist I'm running rather than having them work hammer-rich tiles. So it may be time, as I said, to slow down the tech pace and focus on military.

Espionage, with a focus on Washington:



And finally, a look at the map. Here's the Zulu empire, with the resource indicators removed for a clearer view:



I'd also like to get some advice on national wonders. I've already mentioned my plans for the HE, and asked where the NE should go. What about the Palace and the Forbidden Palace? Should the capital stay put? I'm inclined to do so, as the many cottages around Ulundi were placed there to more fully leverage Bureaucracy. I'd rather not move it until I either switch away from Bureaucracy permanently or capture another city with several mature cottages. Either way, what about the FP? Should I build it now or save it for an even more distant deployment later in the game?

Here's a look at America, with resources indicated:



I really think America should be my next target. Washington has a few very attractive resources in his territory (marble, silver, deer, and incense in particular). Now that Huayna's gone, he's also this game's current and only persona non grata. Keeping on his good side is just going to tick off my allies. Furthermore, his territory now presses against both my eastern and western borders. That's problematic because it means a two-front war, but I think the threat is only going to get worse. And I'm not really powerful enough at this point to take on anyone else, at least no anyone nearby.

Capturing America would give me ownership of the entire southern 1/3 of the map, allowing me to surge northwards against the Koreans, or the French, or the Russians--whomsoever we choose. (I'm inclined to target the French and/or Russians after America and keep friendly with distant Hammurabi and Protective Wang Kon, both of whom are good techers and therefore good tech-trading partners to have.) While Washington's land isn't spectacular, it does hold some attractive resources, and I like the idea of solidifying my land base into a more cohesive whole before going after the stronger civs in the game.

What do you think? I'm planning on allowing 2-3 days of discussion time before playing and posting the next round, to ensure, like last time, that I get lots of wonderful feedback and advice. Hopefully this time I won't be further delayed by technical problems!

The FP, IMO, would probably be more use in the north, say around Yakutsk or Chartres, but this may be too long to wait, especially after a war with Washington. De Gaulle and Peter are best buds, so any war with one will probably end up being against both-- which would make Peter the best target after the American, because you will likely be able to bribe Wang Kon into war against de Gaulle, and keep the French leader tied up with those Protective defenders for a long, long time. The nice thing is they're both big back stabbers, so turning the table won't just help win the game-- it will feel good, too!

This is all going to take a long time, but if you could indulge one little favor, in which I may not be the only one: if you have a spare Scout or Explorer (and Open Borders), would it be possible to send it around the French and Russian territories and post a screenshot or two of the stacks the AIs are building? Just as a point of comparison with past ALCs, so that the difference between the Aggressive AI and normal setting will have some visual evidence as well. Heck, you may want to do this anyway, to see what's behind that Power graph.

I wouldn't bother moving your capital, it's fine as is. I'd hold off on building the FP until after the next war. Once your next target has been assimilated and you've completed your belt build it in whichever city is halfway around the world from Ulundi. The Yankee attack is the best option by far. He's hated, close, and has a decent mix of useful resources. For now I'd pump troops in a ratio like this for a few reasons:

3 Maces : 2 Pikes : 2 Trebs : 1 Knight : 1 Longbow.

-Mainly maces to take advantage of the free Combat I and start getting a large number of CR3 troops ready to upgrade to Grens etc.

-Washington has Ivory so I'd keep a healthy number of Pikes both in your stack and to defend captured cities. Throw some longbows in for city defense as well.

-Again because of Ivory Knights shouldn't be a major focus for the war vs. Washington. The ones you do build could use Flanking II just to help take out enemy siege witout too much suicide.

War Priorities:

-I'd take that Copper/Ivory city first and just burn it to deny him both happiness and Jumbo's. It doesn't look like it has any food, and you already have Ivory.

-After that take Philly > New York > Washington > clean up. This route has alot of hills for the SoD to march along.

-He has too much metal to make sending pillage small squads to take them out worthwhile, just keep one cohesive SoD until he's on his last legs.

-I'd try and hold off bribing any other civs to join in at least until you've taken his core cities (and hopefully got a full loop around the world). No point letting him Capitulate to someone else. He should be easy enough to crack without help anyway. Sure you'll miss out on a few diplo points but that doesn't matter too much with teh Muslim buddy circle going on anyway.

I'd agree with the Liberalism strategy... Chemistry sounds good... unfortunately it is useless as a Military Tech.. just as a military lead in

Tech path ideas

Guilds
Education
Gunpowder (Education First for the Discount)
Liberalism
Chemistry
Then to Military Science -> Steel

Nationalism as a Free Tech would allow drafting, but its not that useful.

Absolutely key is NOT to wait for any techs in your war.. Gunpowder is a bit too far off since you need to focus on production, and by following this Tech path you might have Grenadiers/cannons ready for the NEXT war.*


Diplomatic Wise I would Definitely take on Washington.. everyone hates him and when you take him you eliminate a front.

1. reinforce border cities with Longbows
2. Prepare a counter Attack Force (Mace, pike, jumbo, cats)
3. Beef it up with Trebs + longbows(for garrisons) to be a conquest Force

Between Steps 2+3 Declare on Washington (or earlier if you are 'requested to', as long as you think you have some decent Defense)
Go for the Major cities... Capitulate him only if you think he might capitulate to someone else that could be 'complicated'

As for National Epic, the cities along the "Great River" east of your capital all look potentially good, see which one has a good # of Floodplains and other food bonuses (Saxon has some good FP but I don't know the food bonii)

Make sure that city is nicely defended since it will be near the front lines until you fight Hammy

*The diplomacy seems to be that the Asians and Americans are friends and the Europeans hate the Americans. Since the Europeans are the most powerful right now, it might be good to buddy up to them, and then go after one of the Asians next... the Koreans, as the Babylonians, their best friend, are seperate from you.

So I'd say Washington... which should make Peter a major friend and Degaulle a decent one until Nationalism. And then Korea (Protective stinks, but Cannons and Grenadiers (and some Pikes/Muskets for defense) should do fine.

By that point the AP will/will have become a Major Diplomatic factor, so Target #4 (after Korea) is Way up in the air. Nationalism may also drive a Wedge between Degaulle and the rest, or Free Religion/Buddhism may also help to splinter the northern powers

"Nobamba has very good production"

Ulundi and Cuzco have very good production. I can't agree that Nobamba does.