ALC Game 21: Zulus/Shaka

Hi!
First of, I´ve been lurking here for years, and only recently I found this ALC-series; maybe I´m as poor lurker as I´m as a civ-player!
Second, I really like the MEAN idea to send missionaries to your neighbours to lure them away from the shared religion AND then start a holy war against them (AND, of course, making some profit when doing so)
 
This is Shaka. A game won without war is not won at all. The objective is total conquest. So you have to war. And you know you want to. :goodjob:

Agreed, my general stance is that it is not 'victory' unless you're the only one left standing. Even domination is a joke :p

Well, not a joke exactly. Although I have had domination wins where - while waiting for my borders to pop - the one remaining AI could have stormed my weak flanks and stopped me winning.
 
One of the arguments that has been going on is whether to attack Washington or Wang Kon next. As I stated earlier, I think it is better to attack Washington next.

Some of those arguing for attacking Wang Kon have brought up some arguments:

1) Wang Kon has a smaller economy than Washington, and therefore makes a weaker tech trading partner.

I disagree...

Wang Kon is not a great techer, but he's no slowpoke either. His Financial trait makes up for his smaller size. Also, if he operates in peacetime mode, his tech research will naturally be faster. Judging by the diplomatic situation, Wang Kon has a lot of breathing room to be in peacetime mode.


2) Wang Kon's military is weaker compared to Washington's, despite Wang Kon's protective trait.

This is simply incorrect. With Longbows, Wang Kon's free CR and Drill promotion make him a tougher opponent on defense than Washington.
Washington has Charasmatic, but this doesn't help until his soldiers have been in battle first.


3) Wang Kon's military will be stronger later, because of his protective trait.

This is true, but Shaka's tech research will be faster by the time Washington's lands are fully absorbed after they are conquered. This means that Shaka will get access to Tanks much earlier than Wang Kon, and probably before Wang Kon gets access to Infantry. Tanks will provide the decisive advantage to defeat Wang Kon's protective forces.
 
With that being said, Sis did mention possibly researching Theology for a bit once he finishes Guilds. Is it absolutely necssary Sis get Theology? I doubt he'd be able to build the AP before anyone else (and besides, he said he's not going after Wonders), and I don't think Theology leads to anything that's absolutely necessary.

I believe the thought here is that getting Theology would open up the Theocracy civic and allow for units to be created with higher promotions. If it means researching for a few turns and then being able to trade for it, seems a decent investment.
 
One of the arguments that has been going on is whether to attack Washington or Wang Kon next. As I stated earlier, I think it is better to attack Washington next.

Some of those arguing for attacking Wang Kon have brought up some arguments:

1) Wang Kon has a smaller economy than Washington, and therefore makes a weaker tech trading partner.

I disagree...

Wang Kon is not a great techer, but he's no slowpoke either. His Financial trait makes up for his smaller size. Also, if he operates in peacetime mode, his tech research will naturally be faster. Judging by the diplomatic situation, Wang Kon has a lot of breathing room to be in peacetime mode.


2) Wang Kon's military is weaker compared to Washington's, despite Wang Kon's protective trait.

This is simply incorrect. With Longbows, Wang Kon's free CR and Drill promotion make him a tougher opponent on defense than Washington.
Washington has Charasmatic, but this doesn't help until his soldiers have been in battle first.


3) Wang Kon's military will be stronger later, because of his protective trait.

This is true, but Shaka's tech research will be faster by the time Washington's lands are fully absorbed after they are conquered. This means that Shaka will get access to Tanks much earlier than Wang Kon, and probably before Wang Kon gets access to Infantry. Tanks will provide the decisive advantage to defeat Wang Kon's protective forces.

My counters for these arguments:

1. Yes, normally WK's a quick tech-er right from the get go, but right now he's pretty well behind and I'm not sure if he will ever catch us let alone get us anything decent in a trade - especially if we envelop more land elsewhere and increase our own teching.

2. I agree that Washington is the weaker military target compared to Wang right now - but not because of the protective longbows. Washington is under attack from what seems to be superior forces, so he is bound to have far fewer units. Further, Wang will likely still have a decent amount of offensive units left over from his time against HC (elephants, HA's, and you can bet they'll be hwatchas to). With an offensive stack possibility, it might be best to bribe him to war somewhere if we decide to go against Korea. The longbows don't worry me so much with trebs, knights, CR maces, and spies to bring down cultural defense quickly.

3. Seems to counter #1 in general. I'd rather move quickly now against a protective civ while they may not have crossbows or macemen rather than waiting all the way to the tank era.

Another argument that goes for Wang vs. Washington would be quality of land. I cannot see the save, but others have stated that Korea's land is better overall compared to America's.

The main argument I see against going for Korea would be a diplomatic one. Korea likes us better than anyone in the world now, and it might be nice to have them for AP votes, bribing to war, etc. Might also pick up negative demerits with others if we cannot get them to switch from Islam quickly. On the flip side, Washington is already viewed pretty negatively by lots of others, and we might even improve some relations by going to war with him.
 
I thing I see is that while the western border (shared with Washington) is easy to secure and provides a killing ground the north and east borders are very wide open. That, combined with your low power rating, concerns me.

**BUILD MORE WORKSHOPS**

You have a significant tech lead but a behind a little in production due to the floodplains and emphasis on specialists up to the time. Now, with guilds coming online and caste system already being run workshops will net you +3 hammers at the cost of 1 food and the corresponding .5 specialist that food supports. Then, in your non-core cities build longbows and start increasing the defenses in your frontier cities. Even if you do not use them now when you start capturing cities you'll already have them built.

I really like the idea of consolidating your front by taking on Korea but doing the same with Washington seems a better immediate choice while building missionaries to spread religious diversity.

Capture LA and try and place a city between there and Thracian. to you a three-city north-west front. Try and force Washington into peace then by capturing more cities, and planning to return them once capitulation is made.

Then, go after Pusan, Seoul, Wonson and Ulmo, thus solidifying your entire northern front in 6 cities (ideally founding one between Pusan and Thracian).

At this point you can build some naval defense forces to protect against a sneak attack over the lake and, if the AI does not make use of the lake, maybe make your own behind-the-lines attack while your 6 cities hold the front. In the behind-the-lines attack your goal will be to weaken your opponents since, especially with aggressive AI, they will probably be much stronger than you still. Hopefully they suicide themselves in your lands, thus making even greater use of the captured SoZ.
 
With that being said, Sis did mention possibly researching Theology for a bit once he finishes Guilds. Is it absolutely necssary Sis get Theology? I doubt he'd be able to build the AP before anyone else (and besides, he said he's not going after Wonders), and I don't think Theology leads to anything that's absolutely necessary.

I would just forget about Theology and keep an eye on what the AI does, to see what techs it acquires that would be more desirable.

I believe the thought here is that getting Theology would open up the Theocracy civic and allow for units to be created with higher promotions. If it means researching for a few turns and then being able to trade for it, seems a decent investment.

WHS^^^ ;)

I'm planning on doing a queue-build of several medieval units in the next round, then switching to Vassalage and Theocracy to produce them with maximum XPs.

Hi!
First of, I´ve been lurking here for years, and only recently I found this ALC-series; maybe I´m as poor lurker as I´m as a civ-player!
Second, I really like the MEAN idea to send missionaries to your neighbours to lure them away from the shared religion AND then start a holy war against them (AND, of course, making some profit when doing so)
Yep. Once I have a beefed-up military, spreading Confucianism to my next target (probably Wang Kon) will be a priority not only for diplomatic purposes, but also to make the shrine more profitable. :goodjob:
 
I'm planning on doing a queue-build of several medieval units in the next round, then switching to Vassalage and Theocracy to produce them with maximum XPs.

Meh. ;) Remember you're not spiritual. A couple of turns of research, a trade just for this, two or probably four turns of anarchy to switch and later switch back, losing the benefits of Bureaucracy and Organized Religion temporarily, all for an extra 4 XP per unit? I'm not sure it's worth it. Especially when some of those units are going to be siege ones that get sacrificed anyway.
 
Meh. ;) Remember you're not spiritual. A couple of turns of research, a trade just for this, two or probably four turns of anarchy to switch and later switch back, losing the benefits of Bureaucracy and Organized Religion temporarily, all for an extra 4 XP per unit? I'm not sure it's worth it. Especially when some of those units are going to be siege ones that get sacrificed anyway.

I concur - if there's anything I've learned from these ALC's and my own play is that multiple civic switches throughout the game are not worth it unless SPI or in a golden age.

Early on (while still in paganism), I'll decide if I'll be warring enough to choose Theocracy over Org. Religion, and stick with that choice through much of the game. I usually move into pacifism after the big middle age war using a golden age.
 
Well if he intends on a Permanent switch to Vassalge+Theocracy, the Anarchy is not too bad.

The only disadvantage there is that you lose your best friends by switching to Vassalge.
 
I would rather stay in OR but still switch to Vassalge if a lot of worker turns are going to be used - like to build those workshops I mentioned :)

Given the goal of horizontal expansion 5XP land units out of any Ik...(barracks) city is too good to pass up (but 7 is overkill unless you plan on building lots of horse units in stable to get up to 9). Losing OR to keep Bureaucracy doesn't seem worth it for horizontal expansion, and, even expansive, do you really want to be building workers instead of units and economic buildings?

We have a tech lead and the switch will help us more quickly catch up in production and power so the anarchy seems to be worth it from that standpoint.
 
This is somewhat off point, but have there been no quests to pursue thus far? Any interesting random events?

On point: I like your plan to take Washington now and use Confucianism to break up the Islamic love for your next target, Wang. No opinion on civics.
 
Random events is a separate thing and I don't believe Sisiutil turned those off... those random events seem to be sporadic though. Some games you get a few, others you get none. No biggie, there's enough to deal with as it is. :D
 
Random events is a separate thing and I don't believe Sisiutil turned those off... those random events seem to be sporadic though. Some games you get a few, others you get none. No biggie, there's enough to deal with as it is. :D

Exactly. There have been a few REs, but nothing game-altering, so I haven't reported them. And no, no quests.
 
I'm planning on doing a queue-build of several medieval units in the next round, then switching to Vassalage and Theocracy to produce them with maximum XPs.


Yep. Once I have a beefed-up military, spreading Confucianism to my next target (probably Wang Kon) will be a priority not only for diplomatic purposes, but also to make the shrine more profitable. :goodjob:

Flooding King Kong with missionaries sounds fine by me. Theocracy is also a no-brainer.
I wouldn't adopt vassalage due to the diplomatic hit with the other civs but - hey - you're the boss :D

Also, with Wang being eliminated, you'll be in reach of Hammurabster. And he seems to be pretty weak at the moment and is founder of Islam IIRC (just a hint for the future, of course :) )

[...]
Tech path ideas

Guilds
Education
Gunpowder (Education First for the Discount)
Liberalism
Chemistry
Then to Military Science -> Steel

Agreed up to Liberalism. I'd choose Nationalism as a free tech.
You claimed wonders not being Shaka-like, Sis. Ok, I see your point :D
But being in a decent teach-lead should allow Tadj Mahal for Zululand even without being industrious.
And another GA won't hurt while going to war with King Kong (or in preparation for it).
 
I'd play peacemonger now. Zululand needs workshops, forges, markets, a heroic epic and a bunch of techs to be able to vassalize korea, france and russia.

I think you could get a city or 2 from washington, but to vassalize him, you would need to trash your economy (firing scientists/building units instead of infra etc.)

You have the tech lead now, but you seriously lack the production power to use it.
teching towards nationalism and chemistry(via lib) first might be better than fighting with only 2 cities capable of building troops as it is now.
It will take a major war effort to take down russia, france and korea...

If you think you can vassalize washington without slowing down the improvement of your cities too much, do it.. But taking a city won't help you much, because it will help france and russia to win their war.

Russia is teching optics and fighting a war. Wang doesn't have the prereq for paper. Nobody has paper. Nobody has philosophy. You need one more scientist (from HE city) to get education. Build infra and tech gunpowder, nationalism as fast as possible. Then go full war mode, stockpile muskets, maces, pikes and trebs and raze the apostolic palace...

edit: peter controls the shavadyon (sp??) palace and is in theocracy..
 
I don't think I have ever used theocracy/vassalage except for briefly during golden ages, or with a spiritual leader. When I'm warring I prefer to have slavery and organized religion in order to get my newly captured cities up and running quicker.

Of course, I'm just newly an emporer level player, and I abhor anarchy, so that probably has something to do with it :) I just never figured losing turns to get 2 more xp (although I realize that's a promotion, assuming barracks) was worth it when compared with losing all of the work my entire empire would do during the periods of anarchy...
 
Theocracy is worth it if you are going to stick with it... It saves you money (Medium v. High cost) and if you are building troops broadly (most cities) then it is worth it.

For a short time switch, then it isn't worth it (unless you have a golden Age)

Vassalage is a little bit more tricky, it doesn't save you civic maintenance but it does save you some unit mantenance. The issue then becomces how well developed the Capital is.

Often I will go with Bureaucracy+Theocracy OR Vassalge+Org.Rel. based on whether I want a Capital boost or the more expensive Empire wide building boost.

I would agree with retooling for production though... lots of workshops (especially if you go for Chemistry and Stick with Caste System)
 
Round 6: 1220 AD to 1565 AD (66 turns)

Not too much happened for the first few turns of the round. I finished up a few civilian builds, spread Islam to all my cities with missionaries, and then began queue-loading military units: Trebuchets first, followed by Pikemen to ward off mounted attacks, Macemen to storm cities, and in the more productive cities, a mix of Crossbows and Longbows. I teched through Guilds and began adding Knights to the mix. A random event gave me some flasks towards Printing Press from some city ruins.

Then Hammurabi finished building the Apostolic Palace.

Fortunately, that turned out well.

ALC21_1565AD_01.jpg


And now Hammy was willing to trade Theology, which would allow me to run Theocracy for a few turns to churn out promoted units, as I'd planned.

ALC21_1565AD_02.jpg


However, in a certain way, this trade would come back to haunt me.

And then, without any effort on my behalf, our diplomatic plans came to fruition. Serendipitous, to say the least.

ALC21_1565AD_03.jpg


However, the downside was that I earned some diplomatic demerits with others for not getting involved in this war. I actually used the AP to shut it down for a while to avoid such complications.

When I saw that the hammers alloted to the oldest units in my cities' build queues were starting to deteriorate, I decided it was time to change civics to churn out the promoted units.

ALC21_1565AD_04.jpg


I ran Vassalage and Theocracy for a total of 10 turns. I know several of you use these civics differently, but this is a favourite trick of mine. I get a bunch of highly-promoted units but I get to switch back to economically more favourable civics quickly. I suppose I could have saved the GS I used for the earlier Golden Age for this to avoid the anarchy, but I didn't. I'm reasonably confident that I'll be able to make up for the lost turns.

Besides, I love seeing this in the power chart:

ALC21_1565AD_05.jpg


I then had to move the units into position, ready to attack America's east from my west. It was time to declare war:

ALC21_1565AD_06.jpg


First up, I razed St. Louis, which was stealing tiles from Tiwanaku.

Though I was reluctant to trade with Hammurabi--who is, strangely, the tech leader--he kept dropping by offering me these great deals.

ALC21_1565AD_07.jpg


"Come on down to Hammy's used tech lot! We got steals on deals and balloons for the kids! Check out this beauty: Nationalism, only ever used by a little old lady to get to the Taj Mahal on Sundays..."

Another day, another razed American city:

ALC21_1565AD_08.jpg


You guys are right, Washington has some lousy land. It was easier to raze these food-poor cities than to try to hold them.

By this point I had researched Liberalism to within one turn of completion, but now that Hammy had all of its pre-requisites, I was getting nervous. I realized I needed intelligence. I had a large, strong army, so I throttled back research for a few turns in favour of espionage.

ALC21_1565AD_09.jpg


Besides adjusting the slider, I also switched to running spy specialists in many of my cities. Once I had visibility into Hammurabi's research, I kept swapping espionage targets until I had the same insight for all the other civs. Very handy.

As much as I like Vancouver's real-life sister city of Seattle, I razed it too.

ALC21_1565AD_10.jpg


Ah well, the Kingdome is falling apart anyway, isn't it? So think of it as a rather intense and complete form of urban renewal. And maybe in this world every city won't end up with a freakin' Starbucks on every single street corner.

My foray into intelligence gathering paid off. I soon saw that Hammurabi had begun to research Liberalism, so it was time to switch myself and claim the free tech.

ALC21_1565AD_11.jpg


Since I hadn't finished Gunpowder yet, I couldn't grab Chemistry. That's the price I paid for trading both Paper and Education to Hammurabi, who I will have to remember is an unlikely but accomplished tech fiend. However, thanks to getting Nationalism from the Babylonian, I was able to choose what I think will prove to be a very useful tech:

ALC21_1565AD_12.jpg


I think Shaka would approve.

I finally captured an American city I decided to keep:

ALC21_1565AD_13.jpg


At least this one has pigs to feed itself.

Meanwhile, I chose an un-Shaka tech next to balance out my Liberalism choice and managed to beat everyone to Economics.

ALC21_1565AD_14.jpg


So, how to use the free Great Merchant? As you can see, he'll partially lightbulb Constitution; Jails could prove handy, and Representation is a very handy civic when you're running a SE, even a hybrid version like I am. Or I could save him to use with another GP for a golden age. A trade mission seems unnecessary with well over 2000 gold in the bank, and the best I'll do is 1950 gold in return. Though that would all me to boost research to 100% for a few turns. Thoughts?

Meanwhile, checking in with Washington, he's already prepared to buckle under to Zulu might:

ALC21_1565AD_15.jpg


That's what you get for keeping slaves, George. (Seriously, would it not have been cool if Shaka and his Impis had somehow come over to America and kicked some plantation owners' pasty white rumps? Well now history has been rewritten, courtesy of Civ IV!)

So should I take George on as a slave, I mean vassal, or should I capture some more American cities first? Chicago and New York had topped the list of suggestions, and I don't have either one yet. Then again, George is at war with Hammurabi and Peter, and I'd rather not give techs to my two main rivals to get them to accept peace. Finishing up with American now would also allow me to join the growing dog-pile on Korea...

Decisions, decisions. As always. A state-of-the-world post will follow.
 

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