AP is such a powerful wonder

I've won a ton of games with it since I got BTS, and found that handled properly the AP can be literally game-breaking (or should I say ending?)

I just ran a screwaround game on emperor playing as a random civ on shuffle (got JC of Rome). Started on a continent with mansa musa and only him. Found out later the other continent had monty, shaka, ghengis khan, and willem (someone must have gotten bumped without me noticing, not surprising with that bunch ).

Mansa founded Hinduism, I forget which of the warmongers got Buddhism, but it was probably Monty. MM founded Confucianism and Judaism also, while I founded Taoism, for a change intentionally.

The plan? AP diplo win, from very early on! I was hindu like MM, but once I founded taoism, I took that missionary straight to the capitol and spread it there, switch to it, and built the AP in it. I immediately converted back to hindu.

The funny thing about the AP is that you can use resolutions and even call victory while not in the religion if you own it. In other words, you can be in a non-ap religion with an ally, and have them vote for you. Building it in a later religion such as Christianity or Taoism basically allows you to control who has the AP religion. This opens up a lot of abuse . Some nice tricks:

1. AP "assign cities" using your culture pressure.
2. AP "spread the religion to 1 city" and force people into wars.
3. Diplo victory

The fun thing about the 3rd is, if NOBODY is running the AP religion and you control it, you are the only candidate available in the vote. Also, it's likely that you've only spread it to a friend, who is not eligible to vote for himself so he'll vote for you.

In this game I manipulated things pretty hard core. I went FR briefly to get open borders with the likes of Monty and Shaka (gifting missionaries basically lets you spread to theocracy civs), spread the AP to one of each AI's cities other than MM, whom I spread it to most of his cities.

MM switched into FR. Just before I spread the last missionary (to monty) to enable the vote, I bribed MM to adopt pacifism. Bam, back to friendly.

I wound up with a diplo win as Rome in the 1600's, having never declared war and holding exactly 7 cities . Best part of all, the game lasted 1 hr 30 minutes on epic .

The hardest thing about doing this is keeping the rival AI out of the religion, which means you'll typically want to target civs that are big (so you don't spread it to all cities and watch them convert) or ones that founded a different religion (they're not likely to switch to your AP religion, occasionally FR).

I'm exploring the potential of this victory approach in more depth, particularly the trading potential of the tech path that makes getting the AP in an obscure religion possible. I didn't seem to fall behind until pretty late (won liberalism), although I was running a SE and unless you expand more or pick up the pyramids SE will sag shortly after Liberalism (unless you can get to constitution, which I couldn't as I was doing too poorly).

The victory conditions thread lists AP diplo as a 3 in luck, but I'm not sure I agree with that now. It seems more like a 2, as if you have the AP and a non-spread religion (the ever-noob friendly CoL slingshot for confuc should be enough ) you can dictate who has votes, and that's very powerful.

Not great for score though, even winning in the 1600's I only wound up with 42kish .

TheMeInTeam said:

I took that missionary straight to the capitol and spread it there, switch to it, and built the AP in it. I immediately converted back to hindu.

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When does the "AP Religion" get locked in? Is it when the build starts or when it completes? So would you have to stay in the intended religion until the wonder is completed or can you start the build and switch back to your main religion right away?

To me the AP is broken in its current form, and I also think it is too complicated to understand. Many of the tactics you described are very counter-intuitive. The entire thing smells of abuse.

I still don't have a firm grasp on the AP, regarding which options become available when, and how the various religious choices (including FR) influence eligibility. Is there a good definitive guide outside the Civilopedia, or is anybody willing to write one?

siggboy said:

When does the "AP Religion" get locked in?

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Its locked when its completed. One of my fav tricks is the old switch-a-roo also. Build the AP, and the turn before its done, switch to a religion that only you have, and then you control not only the votes, but the all-important hammers from the buildings. SPI leaders are especially strong for this trick because of cheap temples and no anarchy.

Yep, my highest score victory on noble--close to 50k--was a diplomatic victory using AP shennanigans. Actually, I usually build the AP even if I'm not going for a diplomatic victory--it is so powerful I don't want an AI civ to have it.

Ok, I understand how the AP works, but I've very very rarely find it to be broken. Pretty much only one game I can think of when it was, when I repeatedly had everyone declare war on Montezuma, until he eventually capitulated to me

Am I doing something wrong? Not spreading my religion enough, using a religion that's too common?

I want to understand why this is as broken as everyone here seems to think it is (and possibly find out, at the same time, why Diplomatic Victories are so 'easy')

glaivemaster said:

Ok, I understand how the AP works, but I've very very rarely find it to be broken. Pretty much only one game I can think of when it was, when I repeatedly had everyone declare war on Montezuma, until he eventually capitulated to me

Am I doing something wrong? Not spreading my religion enough, using a religion that's too common?

I want to understand why this is as broken as everyone here seems to think it is (and possibly find out, at the same time, why Diplomatic Victories are so 'easy')

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I never said it was broken because you do have to sacrifice a superior tech path to get it, and you have to use it strategically. It is very powerful though.

IIRC, to get the DoW vote option the target can't have the AP religion. If you are at war with them, you can drag everyone who does have the AP religion into the war also (unless they defy which usually won't occur). This is possible even if the nations declaring only have 1 city in the AP religion, and unlike diplomacy victories you CAN force this by yourself. You get mutual military struggle points for this . Even nicer, the diplo anger from the AI DoW's will last.

Also while IMO it's easier than some other victory types, AP diplo isn't all that easy. You have to get open borders in order to spread the religion, and you DO have to get someone to vote for you. You need to be running your economy/military well too, so you don't get killed before you can actually abuse the AP.

I'm going to start making it in more of my games to take advantage of the DoW dogpiles though. It seems like a great way to snipe cities if you can swing it.

Our current succession game (JFC-2) is running exactly as you're describing--the Christian city was razed early on, and everybody is non-Christian, leaving the AP holder (us-Mongolia) being the only candidate for AP residency. We do have more than 75% of the votes which we will rectify by converting our opponent's (France) cities just enough to run 2nd to us.

However, is it possible to call on the diplo win option, with us being the AP resident (in free religion) and nobody else being full members of Christianity? I thought there was a rule barring automatic wins. Unless voting members can win also, we may have to convert to Christianity and induce another civ to do so before calling on the vote.

Please clarify...

He got another civ to friendly which meant it wasn't a self-voted win. There doesn't have to be an opponent.

AnotherPacifist said:

Our current succession game (JFC-2) is running exactly as you're describing--the Christian city was razed early on, and everybody is non-Christian, leaving the AP holder (us-Mongolia) being the only candidate for AP residency. We do have more than 75% of the votes which we will rectify by converting our opponent's (France) cities just enough to run 2nd to us.

However, is it possible to call on the diplo win option, with us being the AP resident (in free religion) and nobody else being full members of Christianity? I thought there was a rule barring automatic wins. Unless voting members can win also, we may have to convert to Christianity and induce another civ to do so before calling on the vote.

Please clarify...

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The rule is that you can't vote yourself in exclusively. There is no need for there to be an opponent on the ballot though .

Half of my game posts on this forum have me winning this way lately, it ends games that are won quicker, and even cheeses out some non-deserved wins .

There's also another "abuse" factor:

1) Demand something or make a trade with a player you want dead that isn't a Full Member of the AP..
2) Propose an AP resolution calling for War on the Infidels, specifically the player from above
3) Laugh as the AP DoW overrides the automatic 10-turn peace treaty and conquer the player's cities.

I won my first diplomatic game using the AP recently and I was pretty excited about it. It was a pangea map and I was trying for a domination win and took out two small neighbors early as I was on the eastern edge of the continent and secured the largest landmass with an axe->maceman attack but had to slow down to rebuild my economy. In the meantime, Mansa was the second largest civ, and in third was Isabella on the other side of the globe.

At the end of my warring I had taken one civ and vassaled Gilgamesh when Isabella finally converted one of my cities to Christianity which was her religion. Now since she was on the other end of the continent, I set her up as a close friend early and used her to attack others with a good score to ensure I could maintain a military edge over my closer opponents. Since I was playing Brennus. Now I hadn't previously run into the AP but Isabella has built it so I was getting the bonus and was eligible for votes so I decided to spread the religion to all my other cities using OR to help me build infastructure but wanted to keep Christianity for the diplomatic bonus.

I originally has 10 votes or so right after I got my first Christian city, and Mansa and Huayna were the leaders at the election. but neither could secure enough votes. After I put Christianity in all my cities I had also finished the hanging gardens, and since I was no longer whipping as heavily since I was out of war my empire was easily the most populous. When the election came up I won easily since Isabella wasn't eligible and I switched to Theocracy to get her to friendly and prepare for my next offensive campaign. When the option to choose a diplomatic victory came up, I took it and to my great surprise I got the vote from Isabella, and my vassal, and because of the size of our empires I won easily and finished the game some 500 years earlier then I expected.

I learned a few important things from this about the victory condition

1) I didn't need to have everyone happy with me, I just needed a big empire and another biggish empire to REALLY like me. I had just declared war on a few other civs so I literally only had one ally and a vassal with two small cities to give me the edge.

2) Diplomatic strategies can be very flexible. By making a good plan to manipulate the relationships between other civs to try and win a warmonger victory, I was able to nail a diplomatic one instead. My keeping another strong civ happy we posed an unbeatable team for world dominance one way or another. This was my first game where I went in with a clear plan for controlling the behavior of the AI and it worked like a charm.

3) Spreading religions can be useful. I hadn't really bothered moving religions around much before besides for cultural victories, but the diplomatic bonuses are great, and they work well with spiritual to get the most benefit from the religious civics. I also make missionaries to build culture in new cities so I can start with a granary instead.

AP is a huge wonder, completely a case apart of all the Civ IV wonders. Consider that the AP:

-Can force peaceful AI to make your wars
-Can save you from a unwanted war
-Can give you cities without a fight
-Can give you a pretty controlable diplo win
-Give hammers to cities with certain buildings that you would build anyway most likely

I would build a wonder with only one or two of this items gladly.....

I hate the AP.

I usually try and found Taoism or Islam, and then convert and build the AP. Bam, I don't spread the religion beyond it's holy city, so the AP is essientally not there. I then switch back to the old religion.

I love Civ abuse

What if you are having a hard time getting an OB agreement with a civ that has none of the AP religion yet?

A trick I've heard of (but have yet to execute): Make a caravel with a missionary of religion X aboard, then gift it to the contrary AI. Hopefully in a few turns, religion X will appear in one of its cities.

I've heard this works even when the AI is in Theocracy, as long as the AI is spreading the non-state-religion to itself.

Anyone out there confirm that this works?

Yup, it is true ( unless you're using last version of Bhruic's patch, that blocks it ). I've done it a couple of times myself ..... Theocracy has a poor wording in description: what it does is prevent unwanted non-state religion spread: you ( or the AI ) can still spread a non-state religion in your (it) territory if you (it) want(s) to....

Yes it does Peepers.

r_rolo1 said:

Yup, it is true ( unless you're using last version of Bhruic's patch, that blocks it ). I've done it a couple of times myself ..... Theocracy has a poor wording in description: what it does is prevent unwanted non-state religion spread: you ( or the AI ) can still spread a non-state religion in your (it) territory if you (it) want(s) to....

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I'm glad that bhruics fixed it. The obvious solution to such "non OB" problems is to dogpile that AI with the entire world using the AP DoW mechanic...if they're not in your religion they're infidels don't forget .

^^I don't think that Bhruic's solution is a good one ( Theo AI will simply refuse missionaries... reminds me too much the Religionless Theo Izzy of vanilla days ) but the problem exists and needs a solution.

The issue is that there is always the trick of founding a city, spread AP religion and gift it to the theo civ. That one is clearly harder to solve.

To me the AP is broken in its current form, and I also think it is too complicated to understand. Many of the tactics you described are very counter-intuitive. The entire thing smells of abuse.

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It does indeed seem broken, and that is why I refuse to build it. Those wins don't seem to make me feel right, just cheap.

However, at least it has been modified since its first release, which was even more-so broken than it is now.

I like building the AP, but I have rarely used it for the win. Usually, its for the hammers, AND simply more control.

I have a question though. In my current game (PYL III, Religious Fanatics, playing Zara), the AP was built by Justinian, who was Hindu at the time. Its 1650 AD now, and I have converted to Hinduism, vassalized Saladin (Justinian has Charlemenge and Sury as vassals), but my Hindu buildings arent giving me hammers. I though ALL buildings of the AP religion gave the hammer bonus. I even conquered the Hindu Holy City, Mecca, and it has the Shrine, and the Shrine has the +2 hammers, but no other Hindu buildings are getting the hammer bonus.

Now, when the AP was actually built, I was Confu, and I have actually defied a couple resolutions to return cities to Sal and Sury, and I am considered a "voting member" not a "Full Member". I now have enough votes to block any resolution I want too, but I still do not have the hammers. Anyone know about this?