SGFN-05: India Stomps the World

Yellow dot can be our second Armory city, keeping a steady stream of Archers going until we get iron. Hopefully we will get iron. Then it can be swords and horsemen. Hopefully we will get horses. But as India, should we get neither nearby, we will have War Elephants as a fallback. That, and getting the SoZ, should have us militarily rich, soon we'll have more than enough troops. Since food is power in the early game, we will be powerful. As to the embassy question, if we get Writing before city #5 and can afford an embassy, why not? If this was strict NOW, then no, but this is modified.

Optional said:

I'm not a good at calculating ahead with settler factories ...

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Ok, let me explain it. You want a settler factory to be in a sustainable cycle. That means roughly that you want to compensate the loss of 2 population (by creating the settler) by making your city grow 2 citizens in the time it takes to create the settler. The standard example is a town with a granary that can do 5f6s (= 5 surplus food and 6 shields) at size 4, and 5f7s at size 5, and has one extra tile that has 2 shields that is selected by the governor on the growth turn. In that case the cycle starts at size 4, the settler will be produced on growth to 6, minus 2 for the settler, and we're back to size 4, the start of the cycle. The cycle then looks like this:

Start of turn 1: size 4, 0 food, 0 shields.
Start of turn 2: size 4, 5 food, 6 shields.
Start of turn 3: size 5, 0 food, 14 shields.
Start of turn 4: size 5, 5 food, 21 shields.
Start of turn 5: size 4, 0 food, 0 shields ( = 30 shields, so settler produced).

The extra 2 shields in turns 3 and 5 come from the high shield tile that is selected by the governor on growth. In many cases you will need to MM the settler factory on turn 3 and 5 and change the high shield tile for a 2 food tile. Also note that the city advisor does not account for the extra shields on growth, so it will tell you "Ready in 5", while in fact it will be ready in 4 turns. For me this last point was very confusing when I first tried to set up a settler factory, breaking my mind on the question what I was doing wrong, while in fact the advsior was doing it wrong.

I hope this all doesn't sound too pedantic. For our current game, this is Delhi:



Four a 4 turn settler factory in Delhi, we have at least 3 options.
We are at size 3 and are doing 4f7s, which is very good, but we miss 1 food for a 4 turn settler factory. If we exchange the forest-deer (2f2s) with an irrigated floodplain (3f0s) which will be ready next turn, we are doing 5f5s at size 3, and 5f7s at size 4, and then we do not have 30 shields in 4 turns (but 28).

Option 1. A solution could be to use a 3rd irrigated cow that is now used by Bombay for 1 turn at size 3.

Start of turn 1: size 3, 0 food, 0 shields. (Use 3 irigated cows: 5f7s)
Start of turn 2: size 3, 5 food, 7 shields. (MM: Use 2 irrigated cows, 1 irrigated FP: 5f5s)
Start of turn 3: size 4, 0 food, 12 shields. (Use 2 irrigated cows, 1 irrigated FP, forest deer: 5f7s)
Start of turn 4: size 4, 5 food, 21 shields. (Use 2 irrigated cows, 1 irrigated FP, forest deer: 5f7s)
Start of turn 5: size 3, 0 food, 0 shields settler produced). (MM to use 3 irigated cows: 5f7s).

Pros and Cons:
MM complex and involves both Delhi and Bombay.
We have no waste of shields
ETA of our first series of settlers: turn 3,7,11,15,...

Option 2. Use the 3 irrigated cows in the whole cycle. This also gives a cycle at size 3 and 4.

Start of turn 1: size 3, 0 food, 0 shields. (Use 3 irigated cows: 5f7s)
Start of turn 2: size 3, 5 food, 7 shields. (Same)
Start of turn 3: size 4, 0 food, 18 shields. (Use 3 irrigated cows, forest deer: 5f7s)
Start of turn 4: size 4, 5 food, 25 shields. (Same)
Start of turn 5: size 3, 0 food, 0 shields (34 shields = settler produced). (MM to use 3 irigated cows: 5f7s).

Pros and Cons:
MM is much less, since likely the deer will be chosen on growth to 4, so we only need to MM on turn 5.
We have 4 shields waste.
Bombay looses a good tile.
ETA of our first series of settlers: turn 3,7,11,15,...

Option 3. Use a cycle at size 4-5, with 2 irrigated cows, an irrigated floodplain, and the forest deer.

Start of turn 1: size 4, 0 food, 0 shields. (Use 2 irigated cows, deer, irrigated FP: 5f7s)
Start of turn 2: size 4, 5 food, 7 shields. (Same)
Start of turn 3: size 5, 0 food, 18 shields. (MM: Use 2 irrigated cows, deer, irrigated FP, some other 2 food tile: 5f7s)
Start of turn 4: size 5, 5 food, 25 shields. (Same)
Start of turn 5: size 4, 0 food, 0 shields (34 shields = settler produced). (MM to use 2 irrigated cows, deer, irrigated FP: 5f7s).

Pros and Cons:
MM at turn 3 and 5.
Need an extra MP (but if we choose this option, we can dump the shileds we currently have in a warrior).
We have 4 shields waste.
Bombay does not loose a good tile.
We are larger so make more commerce once all tiles are roaded.
ETA of our first series of settlers: turn 5, 9, 13, 17, ...

I'd like to have your opinions on this. Option 1 is theoretically the best (no waste) but I've seen the MM bit of a settler factory go wrong in so many SGs that I actually vote for option 2, since if I'm correct it will only require MM on turns that the settler is produced. Option 3 is fine too but it delays our settler series by 2 turns.

I can see that to get this running smoothly, it needs to be simple, and that it will take luxes/lux slider/mps to have enough happy people to do it. In the screenshot shown, on the next turn a riot will occur. So the lux slider needs to go up. That makes getting a lux hooked up soon a priority too. I assume for right now, we're doing a 3 to 5 population settler factory. Option 2 looks simplest, so I agree to that plan.

Northen Wolf said:

And blue dot should be next settler target,

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Blue dot is a bad city site since it will take a lot of jungle clearance before it comes productive, and clearing jungle takes a lot of time. Since the rules of our variant imply war shortly after our first 5 cities, the first 5 cities must be good sites. So it should not be our next city, but the lux is important of course, so we should eventually claim it.

Here is a slightly changed dotmap.



I moved black dot 1 tile SW. Green was moved 1 tile SE because the 2 tiles that are now S and SE of it are BGs, which can be used immediately. For blue dot, I added an alternative location, which also grabs the incense, and is a far better city location compared to the original blue dot in the jungle.

I think the city founding order should be yellow-red-black-green-blue.

Optional said:

I'm not a good at calculating ahead with settler factories...

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Well, I've probably just been too lazy to wreck my brain over those calculations so far, and have in solo games always worked from food poor starts that didn't have an efficient settler factory in them. So I haven't made a concerted effort yet to try and get to grips with it.

But it helps me a lot to see you putting down those schedules. Although; why do I come at a different shield count from you at the start of turn 3, in every example? In example 1, I come at 14 shields at the turn of start 3 instead of 12. In example 2, I come at 16 shields instead of 18 at the same spot, and in example 3 same thing; I come at 16 shields at the start of the turn instead of 18. This confuses me, while I understand the rest of your calculations perfectly, and the end totals are similar to what I'm seeing.
I'm Ok with MM generally, and do a fair deal of tile swapping in my own games. I might have discovered the mechanic of version 1 if I had gone on on my own, who knows.

So if I'm pushed to a vote, I would vote for option 1.

Oh; it's Spices you're talking about in the west of our map, not Incense.

I'm Ok with you taking the yellow city spot first.

I forgot to update the roster, so I am doing it now.

Roster:

1: TheOverseer714=> someday next month
2: Optional=> just played
3: ThinkTank=>up
4: Jorgo Mono=>on deck
5: Anaxagoras=> warming up
6: Northen Wolf=> waiting
7: Rodent=> waiting longer
8: akk47=> waiting even longer
9: Doug Lefelhocz=> we'll get here eventually

*Copies and saves ThinkTank's settler factory post.

Thanks for enlightening(correct word?) me. Those things with factories are complicated. What is good turn limit(fpt and spd) for worker factory?

I'd still put white dot over river and save time and shields on aquad.

Optional said:

Although; why do I come at a different shield count from you at the start of turn 3, in every example? In example 1, I come at 14 shields at the turn of start 3 instead of 12. In example 2, I come at 16 shields instead of 18 at the same spot, and in example 3 same thing; I come at 16 shields at the start of the turn instead of 18. This confuses me, while I understand the rest of your calculations perfectly, and the end totals are similar to what I'm seeing.

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The answer was already in my post:

ThinkTank said:

The extra 2 shields in turns 3 and 5 come from the high shield tile that is selected by the governor on growth.

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This is due to the following mechansim between the turns:

1. first food is added to the food bin and if it is full, growth will occur.
2. if the city has grown, the governor selects a new tile to be used by the new citizen.
3. next, the shields and commerce are accounted for.

So on the IBT that the city grows from 3 to 4, you get the food from size 3, but the shields (and commerce) from size 4.

The governor uses some exact rules for which tile to select on growth, and they are explained somewhere on the forum, but I cannot find the thread right now. One important rule that is relevant for settler factories is that if the city is already doing good on food (3 surplus food or more IIRC), then the governor will try to add a hig shield tile on growth.

Northen Wolf said:

What is good turn limit(fpt and spd) for worker factory?

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For a 2 turn worker factory you need a granary, 5 surplus food per turn, and a total of 10 shields. This can be 4 shields per turn and 1 tile with 2 shields that is selected on growth; without such a 2 shield tile, just 5 shields per turn will do.

Basically, a worker factory just needs less shields than a settler factory, which is clear if you realize that a worker equates 10 shields per population point, while a settler corresponds to 15 shields per population point.

For a worker factory, the theoretical optimal situation for a stable factory is a 1 turn factory; for a settler factory it is a 2 turner. This may be possible with railroads, but that is far too late in the game.

I've played. We met the Portugese, the Aztecs and the Greeks. We founded Madras at red dot and Bangelore at yellow dot. We have 2 sorces of horses nearby. Full turnlog later.

Picture:



The save:

Jorgo Mono is UP!

I love those red circles. We've got to claim one or more of them as soon as possible. So we'll put City Alpha 5 on the coast just SE of the northern horse? Helps us get a curragh for scouting as well as the horses for .

Do we know where the Krauts are? I see the Persians growing to our north, but I don't see any German city borders yet. By rule, we are going to declare on the Germans next set, but as far as I can tell, there isn't anyone around to fight, yet. (I assume without asking that it is against the spirit of the rules to hoard settlers in order to delay our initial DoW.)

Sorry for the obscure Trek reference. I couldn't help myself.

We settle the town, declare, and then make an earnest effort to find them. Once found, we can start moving troops toward them. It may be a slow war, they are apparently a distant enemy. If that is the case, we might just raze what isn't a keeper. As far as I know, gifting a captured town to a later target isn't against the rules, so if there is a keeper we decide not to hold, we can let a later target hold it for us on a temporary basis until we can use it. Right now, we have to find them.

anaxagoras said:

I love those red circles. We've got to claim one or more of them as soon as possible. So we'll put City Alpha 5 on the coast just SE of the northern horse?

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Remember there was Fish to the NE there as well. without an expansion we won't get the fish in if we put our city right next to the Horses. If we put our city right next to the Fish it works the other way around; we won't get the Horses in after an expansion. But it'll probably be enough to take the Horses away from the AI. I would suggest for the Horses we take the southern option.
Oh, and that are the Babylonians to our north, not the Persians (trying to frighten us, Anaxagoras?)

Great to hear we've met 3 more civs!

Optional said:

Remember there was Fish to the NE there as well. without an expansion we won't get the fish in if we put our city right next to the Horses.

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I don't think the fish are terribly critical. I do think the horses are, and I do think a curragh or two will help us a lot with exploration, and I'm unreasonably obsessive about settling on a river. In fairness, though, I should point out that if we do settle one SE of the horses, we won't EVER get the fish. They'll be just outside the fat cross. Personally, I'm willing to live with that in order to maximize land use, but I'm willing to hear why I'm wrong.

Optional said:

Oh, and those are the Babylonians to our north, not the Persians (trying to frighten us, Anaxagoras?)

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Boo!

ThinkTank said:

Option 2. Use the 3 irrigated cows in the whole cycle. This also gives a cycle at size 3 and 4.

Start of turn 1: size 3, 0 food, 0 shields. (Use 3 irigated cows: 5f7s)
Start of turn 2: size 3, 5 food, 7 shields. (Same)
Start of turn 3: size 4, 0 food, 18 shields. (Use 3 irrigated cows, forest deer: 5f7s)
Start of turn 4: size 4, 5 food, 25 shields. (Same)
Start of turn 5: size 3, 0 food, 0 shields (34 shields = settler produced). (MM to use 3 irigated cows: 5f7s).

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Sorry Thinktank, I still think you made a little mistake in your figures. It's not for bickering that I want to point this out, but I want to make absolutely sure that I'm not overlooking things (or be in serious need of brainsurgery!)
Look at this example: At the start of turn 2, you've gathered 7 shields, as you've been working 3 irrigated cows with 3 citizens. 3 times 2 + 1 shield for the city centre makes 7. That's clear.
Then with turn 2 the foodbox fills. You're working the same tiles, so you're making the same 7 shields, but an extra citizen gets added by the governor, making an extra 2 shields. The citizen gets put on a forest. That's 7 + 2 = 9 shields in that turn. So for the 2 turns in total you get 7 + 9 = 16 shields. That's 16 shields at the start of turn 3, not 18.
Then in that third turn you're doing 3 irrigated cows + forest deer, making 9 shields, not 7. Twice you're making 9 shields, instead of doing 11 in the second turn and 7 in the third.
In all 3 options I'm seeing this kind of error.

I think we have the settler factory to grab both horse tiles, as there is no profit in sharing what you can have all to yourself(Ferengi Rule of Acquisition #381) My star trek reference for the day If we don't get the fish by grabbing the horses, oh well. Settling on top of the other horse will hold that one down, and settling a resource is an allowed way to deny it from the enemy. Maybe I will oad up ThinkTanks save when he posts it, and I will try dotmapping in light of the new information. Now all we need is iron to make this perfect.

Optional said:

Sorry Thinktank, I still think you made a little mistake in your figures. It's not for bickering that I want to point this out, but I want to make absolutely sure that I'm not overlooking things (or be in serious need of brainsurgery!)
Look at this example: At the start of turn 2, you've gathered 7 shields, as you've been working 3 irrigated cows with 3 citizens. 3 times 2 + 1 shield for the city centre makes 7. That's clear.
Then with start 2 the foodbox fills. You're working the same tiles, so you're making the same 7 shields, but an extra citizen gets added by the governor, making an extra 2 shields. The citizen gets put on a forest. That's 7 + 2 = 9 shields in that turn. So for the 2 turns in total you get 7 + 9 = 16 shields. That's 16 shields at the start of turn 3, not 18.
Then in that third turn you're doing 3 irrigated cows + forest deer, making 9 shields, not 7. Twice you're making 9 shields, instead of doing 11 in the second turn and 7 in the third.
In all 3 options I'm seeing this kind of error.

Click to expand...

I would hazard a guess that those 2 shields are grabbed on the IBT by the governor when it automatically goes for a high shield tile on growth. Governor must be set for emphasize production. I may be wrong, but I think that is the discrepancy.

Edit: Re-read post 28, it's explained there.

Upon further consideration, I doubt I'll want my turns or in on this succession game.

TheOverseer714 said:

I would hazard a guess that those 2 shields are grabbed on the IBT by the governor when it automatically goes for a high shield tile on growth.

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I'm already counting in those 2 shields. I don't think anybody has read the posts correctly (mine or Thinktank's).