JalNES II: Quicker and Easier

How long until the actual update?

Neverwonagame3 said:

How long until the actual update?

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Well, I haven't started it yet. Hopefully tonight.

I'd still like orders from Vertinari118 and Littleboots.

jalapeno_dude said:

Well, I haven't started it yet. Hopefully tonight.

I'd still like orders from Vertinari118 and Littleboots.

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Vertinari is in France for a couple of days.

Starting update.

Europe first (!), then India, then China.

OOC: Why the exclamation point?

Does anyone have a good source on Bronze Age army sizes and populations?

jalapeno_dude said:

Does anyone have a good source on Bronze Age army sizes and populations?

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I believe there's only guesswork. Use army sizes from historical sources. In most time periods the military makes up no more than 1-2% of the total population, so you can extrapolate from there.

North King said:

I believe there's only guesswork. Use army sizes from historical sources. In most time periods the military makes up no more than 1-2% of the total population, so you can extrapolate from there.

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Any links to those historical sources? I'm in the middle of an update and don't want to go hunting...

Update Two: And it Came to Pass, when Men Began to Multiply on the Face of the Earth​

The 19th century was an era of consolidation and expansion, notable for the odd rarity of major conflicts during this time. Instead forces of culture and economics dominated, setting up the more interesting times to come...

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Neo-Kadria, unlike most other states of the 19th century, never managed to develop a strong monarchy. This fact can be traced directly back to the crises of the 21st and 20th centuries--frequently conquered by other empires, the Kadrians maintained some portion of independence by granting ever-increasing power to those who influenced the king, especially the Vizier, rather than the monarchy itself.

Thus attempts to impose central rule repeatedly failed throughout the century--an attempt by the Vizier in 1883 BC to establish compulsory military service was thwarted by an alliance of the monarchy and the peasants, while an attempt by the king in 1864 to overthrow the Vizier was similarly stopped by a direct appeal to populism.

By the end of the century, populist measures had gone so far as to allow the people to directly elect both the king and the Vizier. While this democratic system worked acceptably in a city-state such as Arvad, in a multi-city empire like Neo-Kadria, elections degenerated into a system of patronage by the local aristocracy, who traded protection and funds for votes. According to contemporary accounts from New Kadria and from Emar, which became a virtual puppet state, of the few things that could be agreed upon was to increase the army, though in practice this meant that each aristocrat developed their own private army.

Neo-Kadria thus became a decentralized and fractious state with high resistance to any centralizing forces. In retrospect, then, the transforming events of the next century were all too predictable.


Unlike Neo-Kadria, Carchemish during this time had a strong monarchy, likely because the influential merchants of the nation did not themselves own large amounts of land. They thus generally presented a united front in encouraging the acquisition of new trade markets, especially the lucrative copper, silver, and obsidian veins of Kizzuwatna. Diplomatic records of the time reveal a cordial relationship with the rising Gebal-Qatna league; indeed, during this period there is no record of any fighting amongst the merchant states of the Mediterranean coast. During the same period, archaeological sites reveal a widespread proliferation of Phoenician goods into eastern Anatolia, as well as many Hatti goods on the site of the royal vaults. This hints at a system of tribute paid from many Hatti cities to Carchemish, as does the existence of a network of forts in the Atlas mountains. Indeed, in many ways Carchemish seemed at the peak of its power around 1800. On the other hand, though, a recently found cache of tablets hints at the existence of an independent, though merchant-backed, Hatti state centered on Kanesh, and the presence of decentralizing factors preventing further expansion.


Although Gebal-Qatna prospered, all signs show that its rival, the Phoenician League, did as well. Glassmaking techniques were improved and standardized, leading to an explosion in glass production--Phoenician glass has been found as far east as Shlobi and as far west as to the newly civilizing Minoa, to which a large diplomatic delegation, recorded in both Phoenician and Minoan sources, traveled in 1823 BC and set up continuous trade relations. But it was the influence of the League over Tyros that proved the key to its domination of trade.

Upon the death in mysterious circumstances of Sabium II in 1894 BC, the monarchy nominally passed to a member of the royal family of Hadir, which had married into the Tyrian line. Claiming to be acting in support of a popular uprising which was probably caused by their funds, the Phoenician League took advantage of slow Unican consolidation of the island and sent ships to prevent Unican troops from supporting the regime. After initial skirmishes in which Unican forces were unable to break the blockade, Hadir elected to withdraw rather than risk war. Throughout the century, revolts of varying strength and success ensued, but all were put down by the king, propped up by various Phoenician merchant houses. By the end of the century, Tyros had become a virtual colony of the League.


Partially as a result of the denial of Tyros, Hadir Unicus during the 19th century seems to have primarily concerned itself with land expansion. A key step seems to have been the development of an informal but long-lasting agreement with Men-nefer which divided the Lower Nile into spheres of influence. Once it captured Tamiat in 1883 BC, Hadir was able to exert unrivaled cultural and economic influence over the eastern delta--a key moment came in 1842 BC when Unicans in Heliopolis destroyed the temple of Atum, overthrew the would-be Pharaoh and joined with Hadir, as recorded in the lament of the last high priest of Atum, preserved for millennia in a sealed burial chamber under the ruined temple. The cult of Yori grew during this time to ever-greater prominence, allowing easy conversion from the Egyptian pantheon to the Unican one. Worship was centered around the veneration of the mythical figure of Nastifer, wearer of the crown of Yori and bearer of the Knowledge of the Halls of the Gods.


Men-nefer, meanwhile, underwent an era of road-building, creating a network of roads that enabled fast overland movement of goods from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean. The resulting boom in trade made joining the federation even more attractive, enabling rapid expansion at the cost of coherence. Men-nefer for several decades spent huge sums on attempting to maintain overseas colonies, but long travel time and hostile natives, likely backed by Phoenicia and Carchemish, caused the colonies to fail, though not before seeding the various Egyptian religions across the Mediterranean. The ruins of temples to Ptah and to Yori can still be seen today in Anatolia.



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The Sumbiti civilization during the 19th century followed the same course it had taken during the previous one--trade with peoples to the north, annexation of ones to the south. Though it was still responsible for less trade than the centrally-located Karanu, Sumbiti traders must have been present in large numbers--for by 1800, trading records were almost universally written in the Sumbiti language. Meanwhile, Sumbiti seems to have perfected the process of inciting a revolt against an overbearing government, "liberating" the city with highly-trained squads of archers and spearmen, assisted by a naval blockade, then annexing it several years later through economic pressure. In this manner, Sumbiti had by 1800 expanded south to the shores of the Gulf of Khambhat.


The frequent regime change of the Karanu people continued, but in the 19th century the change was more often internal than external. Tarashna became a seething city of intrigue and plots, and in order to secure their power merchants and nobles began to purchase titles and expand their bases of power outside the city. Through this means, over the course of the century Karanu developed a number of highly-trained, if often antagonistic, troops, as well as expanding its territory inland along the Indus. In addition to the more forceful means of competition, nobles in Karanu competed to exhibit their largess as well, giving the city many more temples (with prominent statues of their donors) as well as impressive walls.

For the most part, this competition was ignored by the large numbers of expatriate Karanu merchants who developed a web of trade ties across the Indus and beyond. With continued Karanu support, these merchants often acted as catalysts of civilization, contributing to the creation of a friendly state in Sutkagen-Dor as well as more competitive ones in Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa.


Kura, the first true Ganges state, acted as a purveyor of civilization along the rest of the Ganges, most notably to the Panchalan states. More important economically was the development of a reliable trade route with the Afghans which traded Sumbiti ivory for Afghan lapis lazuli, from which Kura grew moderately rich, enough to withstand several conquest attempts by Indus states. For the moment, though, Kura was still a periphery state, much in the same situation as Urkesh two centuries before--caught between the more civilized Indus states to the west and its less civilized Aryan cousins to the north.



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Zhou underwent a more peaceful century than the last, from all evidence--instead of the meteoric rise and fall of the 20th century, effort was put into steady expansion, the establishment of a bureaucracy, and the tight control of the production of bronze and jade, which Zhou still maintained a near-monopoly on. Zhou thus surrounded itself with a buffer zone of economically dependent yet nominally independent states that tended to war with each other, allowing it to expand peacefully and choose sides carefully.

Yue, on the other hand, continued its blistering pace of innovation and expansion, increasing the efficiency of its biremes, building libraries on a larger scale, and beginning to develop an intellectual class. Several daring voyages were made to voyages to the east and southeast, which were never regular enough to establish formal trade but were generally extremely lucrative. Finally, Yue continued to expand, straining the limits of its bureaucracy, diluting its culture, and threatening to tear the nation apart.




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OOC

@bestshot9: What is the adjectival form of your nation? I've been using Unican--is there something else you'd prefer?

Vertinari118 needs to send orders next turn or be NPCed.

China seems to be sputtering. More players would be ideal.

Story Bonuses
Neo-Kadria: nothing as per request
Hadir Unicus: increased culture
Sumbiti: increased expansion
Zhou: increased stability


Best Orders: No one's really stood out above all others, but Dachs, NK, Daft, and alex had the best.


Next Deadline: Depends. PLEASE POST WHETHER YOU'D LIKE TO GO TO TEN-YEAR TURNS. If so, I'll try to get rules up tomorrow, and hopefully expanded stats as well. Then I'll set a deadline.

I'm neutral on the matter of ten year turns. Also, as before I don't want a story bonus.

The Peasant's Leauge Reforms
NOTE: Story ret-conned out of existence.

Vizier Kirp-atal was a man who desired power. A traditional enemy of the aristocracy, he had only been elected because he was very good at hiding it. Having gained the posistion of Vizier, he was determined to pounce upon his enemies and gain real power for himself.

To do this, he began the implementation of the Miltia Reform. The idea was that every village (and town and city, for that matter) would have a locally run Militia, who would send a representative to the local Militia Council. He was no fool, and saw that this would be difficult. So he decided to create a bluff.

First, he persuaded the King (Sulgi-azu) that he was a royal loyalist who wanted a restored throne. The King rashly appealed to the people to revolt against the aristocrats. The Vizier exaggerated the threat, and proposed the Militia Reforms, telling the aristocrats he wished to present him to the people as their champion in order to fool them. The local Militia would be in control of the weaponary, and thus sovereign.

Next, he was concerned about a fragmenting Empire. His solution was to use a more decentralised power form. As his brother (who, fortunately for him, had lived amongst ordinary people for a while) told him, ordinary people were concerned about living their lives, not political affairs. If the aristocracy could be destroyed, then the people could be easily called to war by calling every war a Crisis, and a small body of court elites could keep control.

That was his brother's plan. The Vizier, however, thought up something better. By using a secret ballot, aristocrats could not know who people voted for. This would reduce their power, and thus reduce the ability of aristocrats to influence them.

But the trouble was that a "Trust me- he's the best guy" system kept most of the power in the aristocrat's hands, and Kirp-atal was in danger of assasination. Determined to destroy the aristocrats (and incited by his brother), Kirp-atal's next reform was Electoral Representatives, who would represent their regions at the Capital on behalf of the people, and could make descisions there on their behalf. They would also study the canidates face-to-face, it was argued. To the aristocrats, Kirp-atal said they could be more easily bribed (While at the same time, making measures to make sure they couldn't).

In the end, Kirp-atal was assasinated. But his brother had prepared for this contingency, and the power of the aristocrats was to a large degree broken. For now...

Great update, jal - the continued use of that storytelling style really works here, and you seem to be getting together some unintended consequences going fairly well. Hooah!

I'd rather keep it in 100 year turns, because otherwise we won't get anywhere particularly quickly.

OOC: I prefer to keep it in the 100 year turns. Also, I would like to agree with what dachs said about your style. In addition, I would like to state my opposition to certain ah... anachronisms...

alex994 said:

OOC: I prefer to keep it in the 100 year turns. Also, I would like to agree with what dachs said about your style. In addition, I would like to state my opposition to certain ah... anachronisms...

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I agree with you.

@Neverwonagame3: Watch it with your stories about government. Athens-style democracy is acceptable, and I'll even allow Roman-style republics if you don't push it too far. But there are reasons these things were confined to city-states for most of history. The last sentence of your paragraph in the update gives you a prompt to make some changes--and I don't mean writing a constitution.

jalapeno_dude said:

@Neverwonagame3: Watch it with your stories about government. Athens-style democracy is acceptable, and I'll even allow Roman-style republics if you don't push it too far. But there are reasons these things were confined to city-states for most of history. The last sentence of your paragraph in the update gives you a prompt to make some changes--and I don't mean writing a constitution.

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Can I ask what your reasons are? For the record, I do not see any reason why it is any less realistic then some of the other stuff I've done in NESes.

The Coup De'Tat
King Hupitam was an idealist at heart, desiring the restoration of the Kadrian Empire. Throughout most of his life, he had made compromises with the aristocracy and thrown his ideals away. But, late in life, he knew he was going to die anyway. So he decided to do something...

There were eight major families of the aristocracy. Hupitam decided that if he could destroy seven of the eight, he could work the last one and give their leader hereditary kingship. The idea of desiring power was removed, as he was an idealist and was going to be dead within a few years anyway.

One of the families accepted, and the plan was put into action. Hupitam decided to invite the heads of the families to a conference, where it was rumoured (deliberately placed) that he was going to propose the abolition of the voting system (technically true, but that was not the main point). A false defector leaked this plan to the Vizier, who decided to allow it, but planned his counter-coup. The "defector", however, was soon caught, and a new plan began...

With Vizieral aid, the Conference was gotten underway. False rumors of minor barbarian raids were used an excuse for the Vizier to mobolise forces, which were sent to the border. The "defector", who had been forced to defect and swear an oath to that effect persuaded the King this was no danger.

At the Conference, three families were caught sufficently off guard that their leaders were assasinated, the Vizier's men killed a fourth in secret, and a fifth was on the King's side. Having mobolised the forces, the Vizier launched a night raid on the conference, however, finishing off the families.

Word would not get out of this Vizieral victory for a while, and he used this time to take control of significant amounts of land. The aristocratic uprising was dealt with by an appeal to the people, but Kirp-atal knew he had no need to keep his word.

After he, with popular aid, defeated the aristocrats, Kirp-atal would declare himself hereditary King. The revolt would take time to occur, and Kirp-atal would defeat them in battle. Ultimately, he was victorious.

Neverwonagame3 said:

Can I ask what your reasons are?

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He's probably remembering how democracy never even came up this early in history. There's no philosophical basis. Nobody ever thinks "we should be able to make our own decisions"; somebody else has always held the reigns of State, and they always have, and there's no real impetus to change that. Not until the era of the tyrannos in Greece will there be any particular cause for anything closer than a state run by the nobles (i.e. Rome...yeah, there was the Comitia Centuriata, but that was an offshoot of being a state ruled by and for orphans). You're still a millennium away from any major experiment in democracy or giving the rule to the people, and it's horribly out of character.

Dachspmg said:

He's probably remembering how democracy never even came up this early in history. There's no philosophical basis. Nobody ever thinks "we should be able to make our own decisions"; somebody else has always held the reigns of State, and they always have, and there's no real impetus to change that. Not until the era of the tyrannos in Greece will there be any particular cause for anything closer than a state run by the nobles (i.e. Rome...yeah, there was the Comitia Centuriata, but that was an offshoot of being a state ruled by and for orphans). You're still a millennium away from any major experiment in democracy or giving the rule to the people, and it's horribly out of character.

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Only the philsophical basis argument is valid, but some people can think up good and original ideas. (NOTE: Modern 'democracy' is not democratic anyway)

I will take this opportunity to attack the "mellenium away" arguement. Technology does restrict the potential for 'democracy' but all it does is restrict it to a small area, as jalapeno_dude said.

I'm not sure on this, so I won't keep arguing until I've reviewed it some more.

EDIT: Oops. Double post. Can this be deleted?

OOC: (my minimally-informed and unorganized opinion) You should live in former Spanish colonies and their so-called "democracies" to understand how a strongly-established aristocracy (as was customary in ancient times), a large-but-not-too-massive difference in wealth between rich and poor (as was customary in ancient times), among other things would greatly impede US-style democracy (even though we already have models to follow!). If ever implemented, I foresee your militias degenerating into local-scale "thugocracies," your voting into meaningless waffle that would be forgotten easily (I believe people really didn't care about politics and governorship for the most part until the 17th century; Greece was a very short-lived exception and Rome was more of an aristocratic oligarchy because the people didn't really care about politics as long as their favorite politicians provided them with Games and cheap grain), and the collapse of Neo-Kadria as a state.

flyingchicken said:

OOC: (my minimally-informed and unorganized opinion) You should live in former Spanish colonies and their so-called "democracies" to understand how a strongly-established aristocracy (as was customary in ancient times), a large-but-not-too-massive difference in wealth between rich and poor (as was customary in ancient times), among other things would greatly impede US-style democracy (even though we already have models to follow!). If ever implemented, I foresee your militias degenerating into local-scale "thugocracies," your voting into meaningless waffle that would be forgotten easily (I believe people really didn't care about politics and governorship for the most part until the 17th century; Greece was a very short-lived exception and Rome was more of an aristocratic oligarchy because the people didn't really care about politics as long as their favorite politicians provided them with Games and cheap grain), and the collapse of Neo-Kadria as a state.

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But if all the men were involved in the local militia, then there would be nobody to be thuggish over except their families.

Intrude: Difficulty of maintaining compulsory military service in pre-modern time = x, where lim(x→&#8734. Plus if everybody is in something then the same system of hierarchy just develops within that new structure. Nothing changes. There will always be people who control the strings of power (say, the quartermasters as a low-ranking example, or the manufacturers of arms) and without a legal and social framework to bind them, they will abuse it.

For all Athens's hoity-toity democracy, it was nothing of the sort by modern standards, and it didn't last terribly long between the comings and goings of war, tyrants, mob-rule, and oligarchies anyway. Democracy, in the modern sense, while not really democracy as you point out (because true democracy is, beyond about 7 people [which is on average when humans begin nominating leaders] more or less impossible, or at the least impractical, as is any "true" ideology) is the product basically of a few thousand years of political, philosophical, technological, and societal growth. It requires innumerable things beyond just the concept of equality to function, several of which (for example: legal stances on slavery) simply will not exist in an ancient society.

Civil enlightenment is built from blood and the bones of the dead, and you lot don't even have enough to assemble a mere throne of skulls, let alone a skeletal library or palace.