Is there a good tutorial for religion (for dumbs) ?

Eul_Bofo

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Hi.

During my vacations, I tried to play a game focused on religion : start with Ghandi or someone like this, pick up every religion, and priests-spam all my neighbours. But it didn't work quite well, and before making another try, I'd like to know if there is a good tutorial on the subject.

So if anyone is aware of something... ;)

\bye
 
I don't know of a tutorial, but I've had some success with religious games playing BTS, which has the Apostolic Palace that allows for a religious/diplomatic victory. I think the key to any religion strategy is not to get them all and spread them all around, but to spread your state religion only. Then build religion-centered wonders. Again, I'm thinking BTS--the Apostolic Palace, The Sprial Minaret, and the Sisten Chapel are good. So is Shedagon Paya (sp?). Oh, and build shrines with great prophets!
 
if uve got bts turn on 'choose religions' in the settings and then just research meditation or poly for one religion...dont go for too many as you will fall behind in tech...a great leader to play is prolly ramses in my opinion and although he doesnt start with mysticism hes spiritual for the quick religion change and hes industrious to get those little religious wonders quicker than ur opponent...university of sankore is another really good one for religion...
 
I don't think there's a tutorial on religuos games.
Angkor wat, University of Sankore, Spiral Minaret and AP are all great wonders to have in a religious economy though. Generally you want to spam priest specialists and build religious buildings.
 
It's okay to have more than one religion. Don't bother with the "Choose Religion" option unless you simply want a specific one - it doesn't do anything else for you.

Okay, first thing you want is a Civ that starts with Mysticism. As your second starting tech, you want one of the food techs that will support wherever you start - frex, a coastal start with some fish means you want Fishing. (In general, Fishing is a good idea anyway, because of the extra food with minimal effort AND the extra trade with no development costs.) Alternately, if you have Gold/Silver/Gems accessible, you could start with Mining. The point here is to get you extra Coins which you're going to put into research, and most of the time, it's better to have a population boost. Since you don't know what kind of start you're going to get, you'll probably have to redo the map a lot, and make sure you choose an appropriate map script (not Pangaea for Fishing, frex).

Okay, so get your city founded, build yourself a Worker or Work Boat to go claim that food resource (or mineral deposit) and start researching a religious tech. It is widely felt that the AI will ALWAYS go for Mediation (Buddhism) instead of Polytheism (Hinduism), and you're likely to lose a race to Meditation, especially on higher Difficulty Levels where they get all kinds of crazy bonuses. If you know your have no opponents that started with Mysticism, then you're perfectly safe going for Meditation; otherwise, you're probably better off going for Polytheism.

If you want to try and get ALL the religions, then you should start with Mysticism AND Mining, which make Masonry easier to get, and are a requirement for Monotheism (Judaism). Once you have these three, though, you're likely to be behind in all other areas, so you better get cracking on the rest of your game.

I don't know off hand which Civ(s) give which of the above tech combos - you'll have to look it up.

As others have mentioned, there are four Wonders you really should shoot for to maximize the effects of your state religion (Schwedagon Paya isn't a big deal). Beeline them, and anything that gets you them quicker. This could mean trying to get the Oracle built for a free tech, or Alphabet for tech trading, or Great Library for the Science boost. Once you get them, spam your State Religions buildings like there's no tomorrow to maximize their effects. Be sure to build every Super-Temple (Cathedral) you can, and that you have its double-production resource!

You're also going to need some Great Prophets to maximize your income from your religion (by founding the Holy Site) and you get these mostly with assigning Priests, which require religious buildings. It's easier to do this when you have multiple religious buildings in your city, allowing multiple Temples and such.

Spread your State Religion extensively. You may even want to dedicate one city to building missionaries. Once you've converted a number of other civs to your religion, then it's okay to spam your other religions, but not as much, because you don't want anyone changing away from your state religion.

When you get the AP, if you want to try for Religious Victory, you have to be careful. Between you spamming and the AIs spamming your religion, some of them are going to have a lot of votes. Your chief competition is the one with the most votes, and somehow you have to be friendly with everyone AND get them unfriendly with him AND make sure he's not got too many votes to prevent your victory all by himself. It's a delicate balancing act to be sure.

Spread as many religions as early as possible to your chief science cities and build their Monasteries there for the science boost. Then you just need to avoid Scientific Method for as long as possible. You don't want someone else getting there first, though, unless you don't mind them getting a free Merchant and/or free Spy. I don't know if this sub-goal is compatible with whichever Civ(s) are on your short list to choose to play with.

The benefits should be very good relations with everyone (and the ability to declare Holy War against anyone else), a lot of extra money, and a modest science boost. I also usually see a modest production boost, though a lot of it gets taken up with so much building.

Good luck!
 
It's okay to have more than one religion.

Is it OK to have just ONE ?

As others have mentioned, there are four Wonders you really should shoot for to maximize the effects of your state religion (Schwedagon Paya isn't a big deal). Beeline them, and anything that gets you them quicker. This could mean trying to get the Oracle built for a free tech, or Alphabet for tech trading, or Great Library for the Science boost. Once you get them, spam your State Religions buildings like there's no tomorrow to maximize their effects. Be sure to build every Super-Temple (Cathedral) you can, and that you have its double-production resource!

I'll have to study the map for this to be clear for me !

You're also going to need some Great Prophets to maximize your income from your religion (by founding the Holy Site) and you get these mostly with assigning Priests, which require religious buildings. It's easier to do this when you have multiple religious buildings in your city, allowing multiple Temples and such.

About great prophets : do you (beside the first one building the shrine (assuming you concentrate on ONE religion)) use them as super-specialists, and if yes, in which city (science, production, shrine, wealth...), or do you use them for science bulbing, golden age...

The benefits should be very good relations with everyone (and the ability to declare Holy War against anyone else), a lot of extra money, and a modest science boost. I also usually see a modest production boost, though a lot of it gets taken up with so much building.

I agree with you, and this is the reason of this post : religion IS a way of winning the game, but there is no mention of it in ANY of the great articles I'm so fond of ! Maybe it's time for one of the great writers to start one :D

Good luck!

Thank you !

\bye
 
Is it OK to have just ONE ?

There are many excellent Civ IV players who will tell you that even founding one religion isn't worth the effort (unless you happen to found it by researching a tech you were going to research right then anyway).
Though having religions contribute to your economy can give you a boost, it is not essential. Given the right terrain, you can do just as well with cottages.

I usually try to found two religions ... three if I feel like driving myself crazy with the logistics of producing missionaries and delivering them to the right cities. I'm very seldom that much of a masochist though; two is almost always enough.

Judaism & Christianity is a good choice, because they are very close together on the tech tree. You beeline for Monotheism and Theology, found your religions, then don't have to worry about it for the rest of the game. I also like Buddhism & Confucianism or Buddhism & Taosim; either combination allows you to get one religion under your belt right away, then found another after you've gotten caught up on essential early-game techs like metal casting, alphabet, and mathematics.

Anyway, just a thought or two.
 
My favorite choice of religion is to leave them alone, let a nearby civilization devote all their time and production towards founding, spreading, and shrining the religion, and then take it with all the military you've been building in the meantime. :goodjob:
 
There are many excellent Civ IV players who will tell you that even founding one religion isn't worth the effort (unless you happen to found it by researching a tech you were going to research right then anyway).
Though having religions contribute to your economy can give you a boost, it is not essential. Given the right terrain, you can do just as well with cottages.

OK. The point of my thread is not "religion is essential", it's just "what is the exact impact of founding one (several) religion(s), and what is the impact of not founding any". It's also : "religion is important, what should be known about it"... See what I mean ? (not sure, my english is quite poor, I'm afraid, so my ideas may look confuse :blush:)

I usually try to found two religions ... three if I feel like driving myself crazy with the logistics of producing missionaries and delivering them to the right cities. I'm very seldom that much of a masochist though; two is almost always enough.

Now one more question : what is the point of founding MORE THAN ONE religion ? Do you choose one as your state religion, or do you just enjoy the fact of having holy cities ?

Thanks for your help. I'm going to try a game with Izzy, to see what I can do about this.

\bye
 
Now one more question : what is the point of founding MORE THAN ONE religion ? Do you choose one as your state religion, or do you just enjoy the fact of having holy cities ?
Well, obviously you get more money from shrines. You can also choose which religion to run based on diplomacy rather than being forced into one. You could also do an AP "cheap" win by spreading one religion, founding another which you only spread you your own cities and one small city of each AI, build the AP in a religion nobody is running, and then switch back to your spread religion. You'll be the only one on the ballot but everyone can vote, so you basically win.:crazyeye: TheMeInTeam has a series based on it that you could check out.
 
Is it OK to have just ONE ?

Certainly! Extra religions give you a choice in case the one you wanted - for whatever reason - doesn't do what you wanted. It's also additional shrines that AIs are spreading for, especially in the early game. And late in the game, it's awesome for Free Religion - tons of culture and happiness.

I'll have to study the map for this to be clear for me !

I presume you mean the tech tree... yes, you definitely need to carefully consider.

A piece of advice: don't be afraid to save and reload a few turns back if something goes wonky, because you're trying to figure out what's going on. Later, you can tell yourself "this is for the real marbles" or whatever and use your usual restrictions.

About great prophets : do you (beside the first one building the shrine (assuming you concentrate on ONE religion)) use them as super-specialists, and if yes, in which city (science, production, shrine, wealth...), or do you use them for science bulbing, golden age...

When I have a Prophet who can't be used for a Shrine (thanks - I forgot the word in my previous post!) I look and see what his tech is. If it's one I haven't worked on, I usually lightbulb him. I'm doing this a lot more than I used to. A free tech can save 20 turns or so of research. Early in the game, a little jump like this yields huge dividends later.

But if he's not worthy of lightbulbing, and can't be used effectively for a Golden Age, then I am left with settling him. I hate hanging onto GPs - to me that's wasted use. Infrequently will I save them for more than a turn unless I need them for something specific.

Where to settle him? He's worth 2 hammers and 5 gold, so there's one obvious place: your Wall Street city (which should also be where your biggest Shrine(s) are). Wall Street means he becomes worth 15 gold - more if you're Mali, England, or America.

I agree with you, and this is the reason of this post : religion IS a way of winning the game, but there is no mention of it in ANY of the great articles I'm so fond of ! Maybe it's time for one of the great writers to start one :D

You inspired me to try a proof-of-concept game. After careful consideration, I selected Wang Kon of Korea. He is Financial and Korea starts with Meditation and Mining. There are two other Civs with these starting techs (India and Maya) and several Financial leaders. Mansa Musa would be good, pairing with Spiritual for cheaper Temples and the ability to take advantage of newly discovered Civics and Religions as needed - plus he can agree to Civics changes more readily, making him friendlier. However, these other options require allowing Unrestricted Leaders.

I started on Prince difficulty (because I'm trying to graduate from Noble) and after numerous false starts (I tried other leaders and civs before I realized Wang and Korea were the only ones that would work) I found that you need an extraordinarily lucky start to get all the religions. I also set up Standard game length and map size, which is 7 total players. I settled on Custom Continents with low sea level.

I needed 2 Golds (or Silvers or Gems) and I had to settle on one of them. It had to be on a Plains Hill, and the other on a Grassland Hill, and both had to be on a river, and both in the initial square of the city, which must be founded on the first turn.

Even with all this, just being able to get Meditation first wasn't enough - invariably one of the AIs would go for Polytheism and get it before I could. I discovered that I could trick them, since they know everything, and do my first turn of research on Poly, then grab Med and go back for Poly, then still had to be quick about getting Masonry and Monotheism or someone would get that. I suppose if I had ensured that none of my opponents had the proper starting techs, it would've been a lot easier and not needed so many reloads.

Just as an interesting note: It's possible to skip the Classical Age and go straight to Medieval! I did this accidentally - first, I was given a Quest that would expire if I got into the Classical Age (WTH?!), then I built the Oracle and noticed I could get Theology as the most expensive tech (I didn't set that up, either). Poof! Medieval Age, and the Quest didn't even expire! It did expire later once I got Bronze Working.

So far - and this is more a product of my Gold and being Financial than trying to grab all the religions - I'm way out in front. I'm going to see if I can get them all. I got 5 in my capital, and just got the sixth now that I have more cities, but after numerous reloads, it seems to only want to establish the new religion in one of 2 cities (and suddenly Monty insists on declaring war, when 3 reloads saw him doing nothing of the sort!) so I'm not going to get all 7 into one city.

I briefly saw the other two on my continent taking up a religion besides my State Religion, but they both switched to mine. And I'm researching techs too fast to build everything that's becoming available! But I'm making enough money off my State Religion to allow two bumps on my research slider, so I'm happy enough and I'll get this bullseye off my forehead in a few turns when I start cranking out Maces to stop his Archer and Chariot he wants to attack with. :rolleyes:

I'm thinking of doing a writeup on it.

BUT THE POINT IS (sorry for the sidetrack): Religions are quite handy. If you have one, and you can get it to all your cities (or at least the best ones) you have access to +25% building production, +2 XP per new unit, or +100% Great People Production for Civics, AND if you build the handy dandy religious Wonders, you can get +2 hammers, +2 beakers, +2 gold, and +5 culture PER RELIGIOUS BUILDING. That's a lot, really. I find it VERY handy in new cities to build a Monastery as my first building because of the boost in production and culture. The gold is nice, and beakers are okay, I won't snub them. And the one that lets you have 2 hammers per Priest... THAT is what you need a ton of religions for, so you can have 7+ priests, all as powerful as an Engineer, AND they give you an extra gold! I've managed to get my maximum Priests up to like 14 with just a few religions in some games - that's a lot of hammers and gold!

Okay, I hope I haven't bored you to tears here.
 
(not sure, my english is quite poor, I'm afraid, so my ideas may look confuse :blush:)

Your English is fine. I've seen much worse here; everything you've posted has been perfectly understandable so far.

Now one more question : what is the point of founding MORE THAN ONE religion ? Do you choose one as your state religion, or do you just enjoy the fact of having holy cities ?

I think others have answered your question, but just to reinforce what they've said I'll chime in.

The point of a second religion (or a third, or a fourth ...) is to make money. When you found a religion and build the shrine, you get 1 gold per turn for every city to which that religion spreads. Your state religion is obviously the big money-and-happiness generator (and with the right wonders and civics it can generate a lot more than that!) but susequent religions can also help rake in the gold.

The trade-off with more than one religion is that you have to spread those extra religions, which can be a real pain in the, uh ... neck. In a recent game I played I had three religions (Judaism, Christianty, and Islam - the Abrahamic Trifecta!) and 14 cities. I found that just spreading all three to my own cities was a painstaking process that often forced me to delay building important buildings or units in favor of missionaries. It was sort of nerve-wracking, and since then I've decided to stick with two religions.

Anyway, the best way for you to determine how well all of this advice is going to work for you is to try it. Good luck, and enjoy your games!
 
BUT THE POINT IS (sorry for the sidetrack): Religions are quite handy. If you have one, and you can get it to all your cities (or at least the best ones) you have access to +25% building production, +2 XP per new unit, or +100% Great People Production for Civics, AND if you build the handy dandy religious Wonders, you can get +2 hammers, +2 beakers, +2 gold, and +5 culture PER RELIGIOUS BUILDING. That's a lot, really. I find it VERY handy in new cities to build a Monastery as my first building because of the boost in production and culture. The gold is nice, and beakers are okay, I won't snub them. And the one that lets you have 2 hammers per Priest... THAT is what you need a ton of religions for, so you can have 7+ priests, all as powerful as an Engineer, AND they give you an extra gold! I've managed to get my maximum Priests up to like 14 with just a few religions in some games - that's a lot of hammers and gold!

Okay, I hope I haven't bored you to tears here.

Certainly not ! All your (and all the others) advices are well noted, and I'll try them ASAP :-)

In fact, there is one positive answer to the title of this thread : I noticed yesterday that there was a new article in the war academy about ... religion :lol: It's not quite as complete as I would dream of, but it's a good basis, and there was certainly, in my opinion, a lack of articles on this important subject.

BTW, this thread also permitted me to discover the "strategy articles" section of the forum. I'm definitely going to loose hours on this forum :-)

Too bad I can't play AND read at the same time...

Thanks everyone.

\bye
 
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