While We Wait: Part 5

Rulers should not seek power, but the good of their people.
Hah. And how do you propose they do that? BY GETTING POWER TO FORCE THEIR GOODWILL UPON THE PEOPLE, THAT'S HOW.
If I seem so stupid, doesn't it seem plausible I could make a stuffup like that?
I never said you are stupid. I said you spewed BOVINE EXCREMENT and that you are a hypocrite. And yes, it does seem plausible that you could make stuff up like that because of you and your deliberately misleading anarchist ways.
 
I think this is getting out of hand. Let's switch the subject matter, eh?
 
First, that James Madison quote
I like how it says "Alexander Hamilton" right there and you can't even retype it properly.

assumes that judges will at least attempt to uphold the constitution AS IT WAS INTENDED TO BE- not to strike down parts of it.
Words, of course, can only be interpreted one way, not several. Of course not. Like this very response? Can't be interpreted as sarcasm. Absolutely factual.

Second, countries as small as Luxembourg and the Vatican survive. It may not be as efficent, but every individual state could run the likes of Social Security. In modern times, many things could be amended into the Constitution- they have enough support.
Someone doesn't watch the news.

Third, I was using Washington's view in an attempt to ascertain what was intended by the Constitution.
No, it was Washington's personal feelings. Something tells me you've never actually read his Farewell Address.

It is bleeding obvious that the US government subverted the intentions of the Founding Fathers- therefore your mock view of the US government is actually fairly close to the truth. You can't just assume it is inherently absurd.
Actually I can, when the Founding Fathers themselves were complicit in the establishment of the subversion of the so-called "sole intent" of the Constitution. Thomas Jefferson accepted the Louisiana Purchase. He didn't have a right to do so. He was conflicted about it. But he did it, because he would've been an enormous loving ****** not to have. He wrote the damn Declaration of Independence and set one of the biggest examples of Executive power in early American history in the full knowledge he had no legal authority to actually do so.

I guess he was evil! Under your interpretation, we'd still be on the border of the Mississippi. Hooray for strict readings! Great, so you're arguing that the decisions that allow you to sit on your computer and not worry about invasion or hunger or most of the things people in this world have to worry about are Bad Things. Despite the fact that those decisions were undertaken is the only thing providing you the security to question them from your high and mighty throne on Olympus. It's like an infinite vortex of hypocrisy and stupidity. So you'd rather he'd stuck to the rule of law, left the US a puppet of European politics and the rest of the continent as little colonial territories, and in the process ensured you would never have existed, because the Constitution says so. I'm rapidly favoring the last condition, but I object to all the rest.

Also, pretending that our crappy partisan Congress that can't agree over anything, and hardly even passes any legislation of any kind at all can come together to modify the Constitution in a timely and rational fashion is ludicrous, as is taking up the position that a document written in 1789 is somehow infallible and absolutely perfect until such they modify it.

Next I imagine there will be some stunning argument that the only correct interpretation of the Bible is to read it literally, and it was written explicitly by God himself! All those guys who edited it in Nicea in 325? And the subsequent revisions to Apocrypha and the other collections such as the Pslams? SUBVERSION!

I'd continue discrediting your ideas as off-the-wall crazy, but the one doing the best job of that right now is yourself. Please, continue.
 
NOTE: I am actually an Australian, not an American.

Flyingchicken:
1- We accept in the case of children that they don't know what's good for them. Why do we automatically assume it isn't the case for adults.

2- If I believed in freedom, why would I post what I have on the thread?

Symphony D:
1- Yes, as I admitted earlier sometimes I don't pay enough attention.
2- Judges should at least TRY to get it right- it is obvious the Founding Fathers did not intend a "right to privacy"
3- Can you give me a more specific case?
4- The Farewell Adress is, if anything, on my side. (Though to be fair, I hadn't)

...that the free constitution, which is the work of your hands, may be sacredly maintained...

Towards the preservation of your government, and the permanency of your present happy state, it is requisite, not only that you steadily discountenance irregular oppositions to its acknowledged authority, but also that you resist with care the spirit of innovation upon its principles, however specious the pretexts
.

5- There is a principle of not doing evil to achieve good. Breaking the law is an evil act under almost all circumstances.

6- If not for the sack of Rome, the butterfly effect would prevent modernity. That doesn't mean I'd endorse their behavior.

Jefferson should have asked Congress for permission to enact the Louisana Purchase- if he had hurried, then he could have avoided the problems from not diong it.

7- It is irrational to be overly nationalistic. The good of the peoples of the world is more important then US power.

8- If the President were not allowed to do things, Congressmen would feel more free to start doing them. The political parties would still exist, but given that one of the parties would have a majority getting one would not be impossible.

9- That's a straw man argument, and you know it.
 
We accept in the case of children that they don't know what's good for them. Why do we automatically assume it isn't the case for adults.
Oh yes, we all know children's decision-making faculties are in all ways comparable to adults'!

Incidentally, how old are you?

If I believed in freedom, why would I post what I have on the thread?
Depending on what statement you were addressing, I have these to say:

If it's:
me said:
Hah. And how do you propose they do that? BY GETTING POWER TO FORCE THEIR GOODWILL UPON THE PEOPLE, THAT'S HOW.
Not everyone is like you! If people wanted to be free to smoke or be stupid and it will be while the government wants them to shut up and be happy, what will be the course to take? The government will compromise reasonably-begotten happiness for, what, better lungs or better brains?

Are you human?

If it's:
me said:
I never said you are stupid. I said you spewed BOVINE EXCREMENT and that you are a hypocrite. And yes, it does seem plausible that you could make stuff up like that because of you and your deliberately misleading anarchist ways.
You are an anarchist engaging in doublethink, misleading anarchist pig!


also, when I say "anarchist," I mean "someone who 'stirs things up' for the sake of it"
 
NOTE: I am actually an Australian, not an American.
Great, then how about you bugger off and go harp about your own damn Constitution?

2- If I believed in freedom, why would I post what I have on the thread?
Lulz.

2- Judges should at least TRY to get it right- it is obvious the Founding Fathers did not intend a "right to privacy"
And yea verily were the Ten Commandments of the United States Constitution issued forth from Mount Sinai, perpetual and inviolable, never prone to modification.

3- Can you give me a more specific case?
Gee, I don't know:
  • Privatizing social security?
  • Universal health care?
  • Immigration reform?
  • Offshore oil drilling?
  • Iraq War funding?
  • Iraq War withdrawal?
  • Economic bailout of failing banks?
  • Alternative energy plans?
4- The Farewell Adress is, if anything, on my side. (Though to be fair, I hadn't)
It's interesting how you claim something of whose content you are only vaguely aware supports you. Hey, John Von Neumann agrees with me! So does Einstein! What have you got to say about that? Citing references? Pft. Would you like some more ipse dixit?

5- There is a principle of not doing evil to achieve good. Breaking the law is an evil act under almost all circumstances.
Shooting Stalin in 1924 would be a crime but I think most people are willing to acknowledge that in some instances, the ends do justify the means. Pragmatism! Another wonderful invention courtesy of America.

6- If not for the sack of Rome, the butterfly effect would prevent modernity. That doesn't mean I'd endorse their behavior.
I'm so glad you'd be shaking your fist and making poorly bulleted arguments from an alternate dimension. At least you'd be displaying consistent tunnel-vision. Ooh, ad hominem!

Jefferson should have asked Congress for permission to enact the Louisana Purchase- if he had hurried, then he could have avoided the problems from not diong it.
I'm sure his overriding concern was the precedent he was setting, yeah.

7- It is irrational to be overly nationalistic. The good of the peoples of the world is more important then US power.
Right, and of course it doesn't tend to be that, given the West ostensibly represents these values, and the West is both dominated and lead by the United States, that what tends to be good for the United States tends to be good for the West, and what is good for the West is good for humanity. There are of course innumerable exceptions but the basic pattern holds, unless you would now like to argue that Soviet domination or Nazi domination or British domination or any of the other contestants on World Domination Season 9 were better choices.

You know, since you just got done saying you don't believe in freedom, you're free (irony!) to do that now. We won't think any less of you than we already do (ad hominem!). And no, that's not a Godwin (preemptive strike!), I just mentioned Nazis, I didn't compare them to anybody.

8- If the President were not allowed to do things, Congressmen would feel more free to start doing them.
So you're the expert on human behavior and primate dominance mechanics now too, eh? That's quite a leap for someone who has Aspergers. Oh, look, some ad hominem again.

The political parties would still exist, but given that one of the parties would have a majority getting one would not be impossible.
Oh right, so protecting the good of the people is awesome unless you have a majority, in which case you should feel free to stomp all over their rights to pass legislation that shafts them permanently. Hooray for mob rule! Go read some Plato.

That's a straw man argument, and you know it.
Yes, I do, and here's some ad hominem for you: the will of the people says you're nuts so far. If their desire is you stop talking, will you?
 
NWAG you’re an Australian pray tell me what is in the Australian constitution about civil rights? Not much at all, why is that so? Well there is a beautiful concept in English common law called “The Rights of an Englishmen” which the American bill of rights is really a codification of, if you read the Australian Constitution literally then there is nothing at all to stop the state doing whatever it wants to do (it just has to give a “fair” value for any property it seizes) of course the Australian founding fathers never intended the document to be read literally, they didn’t think it ever necessary to write the fundamental rights of an Englishmen into statute let alone into the constitution, they were innate, nobody could ever remove them, nor could they ever be abrogated (they also had grave fears that if they bothered to put them into the Constitution they would be laughed out of London as country bumpkins). They have been implied by the High Court into the Constitution, which was never in doubt it was specifically noted by the framers that they needed to be read in that way. Privacy is one of those rights inferred into the Australian Constitution; it is an unalienable right, derived entirely from common law principles. It is a native thing in Common Law; you can trace it back and see its evolution.

It doesn’t matter that it was mentioned specifically in the American Constitution, the concept is rooted firmly in the law of the land, the Common Law, its one of those little oversights which tend to happen to men framing a document before the invention of CCTV or anything which could invade ones privacy. You can use all sorts of legal tools to read into the spirit of the Constitution, I fairly certain there was never any specific guide to the interpretation, ie. “this must be literally!” the framers I’m sure were much smarter than that. I’m also fairly bloody certain they were aware of Locke (they borrowed rather copiously from his works), and certainly they were aware of the common law intimately which tends to lead one to believe that even if privacy wasn’t mentioned specifically in the constitution it was not, not to be respected. I fairly certain if you look back into the Common Law for the period you will find breeches of privacy being tried in the courts, its one of the many things I’m sure they could have accounted for had they been able to look into their glass balls and seen the future.

I think you’re just being stubborn for the sake of being stubborn or you honestly are beginning to believe your own propaganda.
 
Flyingchicken:
1-Yes, I am 16, but since so many people were using irrational arguments on me I replied in turn.

2- My basic point was that it is an irrational assumption to claim a right to freedom without a rational basis for it.

Symphony D:
1- Just because I'm not American doesn't mean I'm wrong.

2- Modification can be done via amendments. It is impossible to make a good Constitution unless you know people will actually keep to it.

3- Almost all can be done by individual states. The exception, the Iraq War, could be done by mutual agreement.

4- I looked up some of it and got the quotes.

5- That assumes you realised how bad he was, of course. I said almost all.

6- A hypothetical scenario. You can kill hundreds of innocents lives (and you have to do many of them personally), the result being that some alternative dimension achieves modernity. Would you do it?

7- First, back at the Louisana Purchase it didn't represent the free world. Second, people nowadays would consent to amendments created a constitution which still makes a strong America practical. Third, being a British colony isn't all that bad for a country.

8- Ancient Greek times set a suitable precedent (assuming the President can be prevented from gaining undue influence). What happened there was that demagouges emerged with varying degrees of influence, who would make speeches to sway the people (or in this case Congress) to a certain course of action.

9- I don't oppose these measures because they stomp over people's rights (With many they don't), but because they break the law.
 
Yes, I am 16, but since so many people were using irrational arguments on me I replied in turn.
Blah blah blah please do state why the BOVINE EXCREMENT you spew as you continue yapping in your little Wonderland are rational and the arguments thrown at you are not?

No, please, do point things out with excruciating detail on both the points and your so-called "rationality". I can wait.
My basic point was that it is an irrational assumption to claim a right to freedom without a rational basis for it.
"Oh look, I can throw the word 'rational' around hither-thither and make it look like I'm not a blithering idiot""

Tell me, what, exactly, do you believe to be the ultimate reason of the existence of mankind?


Also, I am not myself today. Acting overtly aggressive is good catharsis.
 
1- Just because I'm not American doesn't mean I'm wrong.
It just means you have no real legitimate reason to be discussing it.

2- Modification can be done via amendments. It is impossible to make a good Constitution unless you know people will actually keep to it.
Other than the fact that it happens extremely rarely because modifying the basic legal text every single time you want to make a change with a 3/4s majority is incredibly freaking stupid when you can just use the vast body of common and civil law that exists outside of it.

3- Almost all can be done by individual states. The exception, the Iraq War, could be done by mutual agreement.
Yeah, because the Federal government hasn't assumed those powers. Oh, but it doesn't have a Constitutional right! It will clearly recognize this and surrender all the power it has accrued. You know, if George W. Bush wanted it bad enough. Or something.

And people would still have to agree on them which they don't because this country is full of people with different viewpoints. So I guess in some mystical America where everyone thinks exactly the same and is spineless, yes, your theory works.

4- I looked up some of it and got the quotes.
And then didn't actually bother putting them up.

5- That assumes you realised how bad he was, of course. I said almost all.
Slippery slope. Since you have conceded that point I can make an argument that killing anyone who would have killed more than two people is inherently a net gain pragmatically, and begin using various methods to compute whether killing someone who would have killed on a one-to-one ratio would be beneficial. Lots of things that are against the law get done because they work better. Welcome to the human race!

6- A hypothetical scenario. You can kill hundreds of innocents lives (and you have to do many of them personally), the result being that some alternative dimension achieves modernity. Would you do it?
As opposed to Rome? Sure, not my dimension, and I have no obligations to them. The net gains of modern society like oh, medicine, would vastly outweigh the detriment of such carnage anyway.

7- First, back at the Louisana Purchase it didn't represent the free world.
And so what? If it hadn't made the Louisiana Purchase it never would have. Thus if your position were to be followed, the West would probably be a hollow shell of its former self if it even existed at all.

Second, people nowadays would consent to amendments created a constitution which still makes a strong America practical.
You really don't pay attention to the news.

8- Ancient Greek times set a suitable precedent (assuming the President can be prevented from gaining undue influence). What happened there was that demagouges emerged with varying degrees of influence, who would make speeches to sway the people (or in this case Congress) to a certain course of action.
Are you really going to try and argue that the mechanics of an archaic "democracy" and a modern Federal Republic are the same? Really. Wow.

9- I don't oppose these measures because they stomp over people's rights (With many they don't), but because they break the law.
You just said that parties with majorities can assume control and rush through legislation. Parties tend to have opposing viewpoints. The minority will thus be stomped if at all possible. Your argument was that minority-stomping is A-OK because it would permit enabling continuous modification of the Constitution. Ironic, because minority-stomping is one of the things the Constitution was built to guard against.

I'm done with this. I have better things to waste my time on than humoring your world view.
 
Masada:
a- The American Founding Fathers (and Australian) obviously intended the states to have a lot more power then they did.
b- English privacy law only began 10 years ago. Therefore it was not one of the "Rights of an Englishman".

Flyingchicken:
-Would take too long. I'm starting to feel a bit tired.
EDIT: It's probably more that I'm lazy then tired, actually.

-By default, humans persue whatever goals (the choice is not rational), and for various reasons (usually instinct) construct a morality. But either morality is irrational and arbitrary or there is some rational basis for it.

A rational moral discussion is hard without a rational basis for morality.

EDIT: Added Symphony D's post in.

Symphony D:
1- Why can't a foriegner try to persuade Americans of a certain point of view? If I'm right, it will be pragmatically beneficial.

2- Firstly, it wouldn't break the law. Secondly, you haven't refuted the argument (though you have provided another one). Third, several amendments can be voted on at the same time. Fourth, bodies could be given limited powers of amendment by amendment.

3- I'm not saying my ideas are going to be implemented, just that they should be- and also that whenever a chance arises to increase support for them it is worth trying.

4- Oops, I thought I did.

...that the free constitution, which is the work of your hands, may be sacredly maintained...

Towards the preservation of your government, and the permanency of your present happy state, it is requisite, not only that you steadily discountenance irregular oppositions to its acknowledged authority, but also that you resist with care the spirit of innovation upon its principles, however specious the pretexts. One method of assault may be to effect, in the forms of the constitution, alterations, which will impair the energy of the system, and thus to undermine what cannot be directly overthrown.

5- It takes something as extreme as Stalin for me to concede the principle of breaking the law.

6- If you accept a pragmatic doctrine. I'll argue about the basis of morality when other points are resolved. (If you get back to this or other people start arguing these points)

7- If the Louisania purchase had never happened, the colonial empires would have spread Western influences far further then they got, and kept them.

8- They are close enough on this issue.

9- While the measures I advocated in Point 3 work if you really want fast-paced amendment change, amendments should be a very rare thing. (Once per 20 years at most common). A system of 3/4 amendment will guard against this.
 
Would take too long. I'm starting to feel a bit tired.
Cop-out pig. I stab at thee, and dance around your virtual cop-out pig body.

You are afraid that you will realize how much BOVINE EXCREMENT you have spewed if you would undertake the undertaking I have asked you to undertake. You are an INNUENDOED FELINE, a scared, cowardly, and spineless INNUENDOED FELINE.

By default, humans persue whatever goals (the choice is not rational), and for various reasons (usually instinct) construct a morality. But either morality is irrational and arbitrary or there is some rational basis for it.

A rational moral discussion is hard without a rational basis for morality.
So what you're saying is that you know better than instinct and arbitrarily constructed morality and that what you think is right for humanity is "rational"? Or do you have some arcane basis for some "rationally-constructed morality"?

Cop-out pig!
 
Cop-out pig. I stab at thee, and dance around your virtual cop-out pig body.

So what you're saying is that you know better than instinct and arbitrarily constructed morality and that what you think is right for humanity is "rational"? Or do you have some arcane basis for some "rationally-constructed morality"?

Cop-out pig!

If you remind me, I can get back to the first point tommorow(I'd forget otherwise). As for the second, I believe there to be a non-zero percentage chance of the Christian God existing, therefore some basis for morality. (Without a God or similiar thing, morality is irrational) I presumed it for the discussion because otherwise it would be moot.
 
EDIT: I shall be buying the new Colonization the day it comes out, find it wanting compared to the old version, and only ever play the old one stuck in a fit of nostalgia.

You could always send me your copy after you're done with it :D

I'm creaming myself for Empire: Total Wars though
 
If you remind me, I can get back to the first point tommorow(I'd forget otherwise).
You will forget because you are an INNUENDOED FELINE.

As for the second, I believe there to be a non-zero percentage chance of the Christian God existing, therefore some basis for morality. (Without a God or similiar thing, morality is irrational) I presumed it for the discussion because otherwise it would be moot.
Tell me, why can't we have a morality based on the fact that most people don't like killing, or stealing, or any of the other morally-reprehensible things based on hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary fine-tuning?



I feel so lonely in #nes... well, there's andis and Chieftess, but they're quiet.
 
You will forget because you are an INNUENDOED FELINE.

Tell me, why can't we have a morality based on the fact that most people don't like killing, or stealing, or any of the other morally-reprehensible things based on hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary fine-tuning?



I feel so lonely in #nes... well, there's andis and Chieftess, but they're quiet.

You can- but then rational discussion about it is pointless. It would be all about conceding to emotion, therefore moral principles are irrelevant.

EDIT: Made a slight clarification.
 
Tell me, why can't we have a morality based on the fact that most people don't like killing, or stealing, or any of the other morally-reprehensible things based on hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary fine-tuning?

We can and technically do, it just won't have absolute authority behind it - a weakness crying to be exploited in modern conditions. It's not so much a matter of morality as of defending-imposing (in other words, bringing into real life) certain moral principles, the most important of which, however, are pretty much universal (well, unihuman) and have existed in some form or another for all of history.
 
Killing's not immoral, imo. All depends on why you're killing someone. I'd kill a child rapist in a split second, if it weren't against the law.
 
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