Rhye's of Europe Civ Discussion Thread

Russian UP: what happened to the power of the Russian winter, I guess we are not using this one.

Poland UP: I will think about it.

Genoa UP: currently it looks useless. Maybe +1 commerce per tile would be better, or +1 free merchant per city.

England UHV: exactly what I was thinking. UU: English Longbowman?

Portugal UP: currently it is useless, who cares about the ocean tiles, no one would go there anyway. There is no new world to go after. The second suggestion is better.

jessiecat said:

Some very good ideas there. My thoughts on them are;

Poland - "Golden Liberty" refers to the empowerment of the nobility in a kind of "nobles democracy" with a parliament that restricted the power of the monarchy. This is one I think should be linked to a civic like Electorate or Limited Monarchy though how it might work I'm not sure. Ideas?
I'm happy with adding Russia to the UHV. That makes more sense. I agree that the UB is wrong but I have another idea. Poland was a big exporter of food esp. grain so why not a "Corn Exchange" replacing the grocer which could give extra gold for food as well?

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I've got to look back through the threads to find the Polish word for the thing, but that sounds fine. +1 gold per farm is probably too powerful, but something like '+2 trade on irrigated grain resources' might work, or having the replacement grocer give +40% income rather than 25%.

For a UP, how about +1 happiness and +10% research in all cities when running Electorate?

jessiecat said:

Moscow - I agree the UP should involve decreased maintenance costs for cities founded to encourage the AI to expand. And yes its more realistic to found 12 cities anywhere not just east. Agreed. The Boyars were very wealthy nobles who raised their own feudal armies in service to the Tsars. So the UU should be a strong elite unit like an enhanced knight (12/2 with a couple of promotions?)

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3Miro said:

Russian UP: what happened to the power of the Russian winter, I guess we are not using this one.

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Sounds good for the Boyar. Shock and 1 first strike?

Russia seems much less likely to be invaded seriously than in standard RFC, except by the Mongols - who it probably shouldn't apply to. We are borrowing a variant of the Russian UP for Hungary, so it's probably best not to duplicate it. Rather than giving Russia a UP that won't help it with any of its UHV goals, it seems better to make the Russian UP something that will keep a large empire viable.

jessiecat said:

Genoa I like the idea of open borders as a UHV. With how many civs? The Carthage UP reduces the costs of mercenaries, doesn't it? That's good for them as they should be rich enough to hire what they need. Also agreed.

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3Miro said:

Genoa UP: currently it looks useless. Maybe +1 commerce per tile would be better, or +1 free merchant per city.

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We have 18 civs, I think? OB with 10? I like the free merchant idea, although I'd set it up differently - why not make the Genoan variant on the bank be the UB, and have it give 1 free merchant, and then go for the mercenary UP?

jessiecat said:

England You're right about the UU. It should be Redcoats (replaces Line Infantry) as a counter to the French musketeer though I hope they don't arrive too late to be useful. I like your cottage industry idea though I wonder if it should be linked to the guild system. What about "The Power of Guilds" where each guild built gives 1 extra hammer to towns in the BFC?

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3Miro said:

England UHV: exactly what I was thinking. UU: English Longbowman?

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How many guilds were you planning on having? I'm not sure we ever really worked out the guildhouse system. We could do that with corporations, but then the power of cottage industry has nothing to do with our corporate entities. I feel like we're better off either making a marginal tile improvement (workshop) more powerful, or making a powerful tile improvement that takes a long investment (town) stronger. I also worry about having a really powerful UP for England, because they're going to be one of the hardest civs to balance. They're geographically isolated, have good land and lots of resources, and should be able to produce a decent amount of commerce. The workshop boost is a little less powerful than a boost to a town or a mill would be.

The English Longbowman idea would work - give them Drill 1 and Formation and that's a pretty nasty unit for that era. The redcoat might be too late to be of much use.

jessiecat said:

[Portugal If we call it the Power of Colonialism giving them 25% less costs on building colonies, how would that be? As far as UHV1 goes you're probably right that Spain might do all their work for them. Maybe it should require open borders and an alliance to achieve that. I'm not sure either about the UU. Nothing obvious comes to mind but I agree it should have something to do with warfare against Cordoba. Something about increased defence against mtd. units (again). Any ideas?

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3Miro said:

Portugal UP: currently it is useless, who cares about the ocean tiles, no one would go there anyway. There is no new world to go after. The second suggestion is better.

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Let's keep the name 'the Power of Discovery', and go with the -25% build cost. I liked the earlier suggestion (Hitti-Litti's?) that the Spanish rivalry should be preserved - can we do 'have more gold and techs than Spain in ____AD'? That's a real challenge, where Spain won't be able to do all the work.

I've revised the list to take on board our discussion. We're mostly agreed with
just a couple of issues outstanding.

jessiecat said:

Poland....The POWER OF GOLDEN LIBERTY (+1 happiness, +10% research with Electorate)
................UHV 1.Be the largest country in Europe in 1400AD
.......................2. Do not lose a city to Germany or Russia before 1600AD
........................3. Build 2 Catholic cathedrals and 8 monasteries.
...................UB...Corn Exchange(replaces Grocer, +2 commerce per city)
...................UU...Winged Hussar (8/3) Shock 1 promotion (replaces light cav.)

Moscow....The POWER OF EMPIRE ( -50% city maintenance costs)
.................UHV 1.Do not lose a city to barbarians (Mongols) by 1400AD
........................2. Build 12 cities by 1600AD
.........................3. No foriegn culture in cities in 1700AD
.....................UB...Kremlin (replaces castle +50% city defense)
......................UU...Boyar (replaces knight) -Shock 1, extra first strike

Genoa ....THE POWER OF BANKING (+1 gold, +1 commerce per bank)
..................UHV 1. Control Sardinia, Marseilles and Milan in 1400AD
.........................2. Control Crete, Cyprus and the Crimea in 1600AD
..........................3. Open borders with 10 civs in 1700AD.
.......................UB...Mint (replaces bank) -1 free merchant per city
........................UU...Balestrieri (replaces heavy crossbowman)

England ....THE POWER OF GUILDS (Workshops produce +1 hammer)
...................UHV 1. Control the all of the British Isles plus 1 city in France in 1600AD
..........................2. Build 3 Colonial projects by 1700AD
...........................3. Be the first to reach the Industrial Age.
.......................UB...Stock Exchange (requires bank) +2 commerce
........................UU...Longbowman (Drill1 plus Formation)

Portugal....THE POWER OF DISCOVERY ( -25% cost of building colonies)
....................UHV 1. Have more gold and techs than Spain in 1600AD
............................2. Do not lose a city before 1700AD
.............................3. Build 3 Colonial Projects
......................UB...Feitoria (replaces Customs House)
.......................UU...Heavy foot knight or maceman?

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I've given 2 commerce to the Corn Exchange to reflect that historically Poland made a lot of money exporting grain. And put -50% maintenance costs to Russia to encourage city building. I've left the Power of Guilds for now with +1 hammer per workshop. I think every city should be able to build a guildhouse rather than link them to corporations. What do you think? And I've suggested something like a foot knight for Portugal as we've not used that kind of unit as a UU yet. Apart from those points I think we're pretty close to agreement on these civs now.

jessiecat said:

I've revised the list to take on board our discussion. We're mostly agreed with
just a couple of issues outstanding.



I've given 2 commerce to the Corn Exchange to reflect that historically Poland made a lot of money exporting grain. And put -50% maintenance costs to Russia to encourage city building. I've left the Power of Guilds for now with +1 hammer per workshop. I think every city should be able to build a guildhouse rather than link them to corporations. What do you think? And I've suggested something like a foot knight for Portugal as we've not used that kind of unit as a UU yet. Apart from those points I think we're pretty close to agreement on these civs now.

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I thought we were in agreement that we should borrow the Carthaginian power for Genoa (the mercenary thing).

And, yes - I think that guildhouses should be city improvements, rather than corporation-linked. The way you had stated it suggested that cities could have more than one guildhouse, which I wondered about.

The Portugal unit suggestion is intriguing. Do we have a name? Anyone who speaks Portuguese? What promos would this knight get - +1 strength above normal macemen, shock, and formation, or something like that?

st.lucifer said:

I thought we were in agreement that we should borrow the Carthaginian power for Genoa (the mercenary thing).

And, yes - I think that guildhouses should be city improvements, rather than corporation-linked. The way you had stated it suggested that cities could have more than one guildhouse, which I wondered about.

The Portugal unit suggestion is intriguing. Do we have a name? Anyone who speaks Portuguese? What promos would this knight get - +1 strength above normal macemen, shock, and formation, or something like that?

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Yes. My mistake. I was jotting down notes to remind myself but didn't do that one.
Consider it changed. -50% costs for Mercenaries OK with you?
Is Power of Guilds OK now we clarified that?
The Portugese thing is a puzzle.
I've tried to come up with something that seems suitable but the research I've done so far doesn't help much. One clue though. The first kings of Portugal were helped into power by passing crusaders on the way to the Holy Land. There is really good art for a Hospitaller foot knight which looks great to me. But would that conflict with what we're doing with the Orders as corporations?

EDIT Found the link (don't you love Wiki?) In 1147 Alfonso I, with an army of English and German crusaders, beseiged and took Lisbon from the Moors. Shortly afterwards Portugal was recognized by Castile and Leon as a separate kingdom (it had been part of Galicia). Hospitallers come a bit late for this but maybe we could change the logo on the shields to the Portugese crest. I'll bet sedna could do that.

EDIT 2 Files moved to files thread

jessiecat said:

Yes. My mistake. I was jotting down notes to remind myself but didn't do that one.
Consider it changed. -50% costs for Mercenaries OK with you?
Is Power of Guilds OK now we clarified that?
The Portugese thing is a puzzle.
I've tried to come up with something that seems suitable but the research I've done so far doesn't help much. One clue though. The first kings of Portugal were helped into power by passing crusaders on the way to the Holy Land. There is really good art for a Hospitaller foot knight which looks great to me. But would that conflict with what we're doing with the Orders as corporations?

EDIT Found the link (don't you love Wiki?) In 1147 Alfonso I, with an army of English and German crusaders, beseiged and took Lisbon from the Moors. Shortly afterwards Portugal was recognized by Castile and Leon as a separate kingdom (it had been part of Galicia). Hospitallers come a bit late for this but maybe we could change the logo on the shields to the Portugese crest. I'll bet sedna could do that.

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Glad we could agree on Genoa. I'd favor naming the English power 'The power of cottage industry', as everyone had guilds, and arguably the guild system was considerably more powerful in Flanders and the German states than in England. Cottage industry, on the other hand, is a more uniquely English thing.

As far as the Hospitaller thing goes - two and a half objections there.
First, we are using the Hospitallers as one of our corporation equivalents.
Second, they were multinational - while they surely had Portuguese knights, they were not a predominantly Portuguese order.
The half objection is on the artwork - I remember asking earlier if it was possible to redo the colors on a unit to differentiate it, and hearing back that it was more difficult than it once was (makes sense, with 3 dimensions and animated units). So that may not be a possibility either, although that is great art to use.

We could borrow the artwork and attach it to the Knights of Sao Tiago, which was a military order active in both Portugal and Spain (in Spain, they were the knights of Santiago; the Portuguese branch split off in 1290). Other possibilities are the Knights of Aviz (Benedictine, founded in 1162 - strictly Portuguese - these may be better http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02161d.htm), or even simply the Portuguese word for knight (cavaleiro), although that refers pretty obviously to a mounted unit.

From these options, I'd vote for the Knights of Aviz. Other suggestions?

OK. Genoa agreed. I'll change the English UP to The Power of Cottage Industry though I still think the name is a bit unweildy. I take your point about the Portugese UU esp. if the Hospitallers are going to be a corporation. The Knights of Aviz sounds good and we can use the art I think. We could even just call them "Warrior Monks". That might sound OK. A great site you've found there with good info and lots of links. I'd never would have thought of accessing a religious site for the history. Good job. I think now if we can decide on a name for this unit, I can put all 5 civs on the wiki. Alright?

jessiecat said:

OK. Genoa agreed. I'll change the English UP to The Power of Cottage Industry though I still think the name is a bit unweildy. I take your point about the Portugese UU esp. if the Hospitallers are going to be a corporation. The Knights of Aviz sounds good and we can use the art I think. We could even just call them "Warrior Monks". That might sound OK. A great site you've found there with good info and lots of links. I'd never would have thought of accessing a religious site for the history. Good job. I think now if we can decide on a name for this unit, I can put all 5 civs on the wiki. Alright?

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Rather than warrior monks, what about Monastic Knights? Same basic premise; less kung fu movie-esque name. I'd rather use the generic than the specific Knights of Aviz, particularly since I'd never heard of them until an hour ago.

IMO Knights of St. John would be a good name, as the Knight Hospitaller was also known as the Order of St. John. Knights of St. John sounds more historical and more awesome. Monastic Knights doesn't sound as classy as Knights of St. John.

Hitti-Litti said:

IMO Knights of St. John would be a good name, as the Knight Hospitaller was also known as the Order of St. John. Knights of St. John sounds more historical and more awesome. Monastic Knights doesn't sound as classy as Knights of St. John.

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I agree. The Order of St. John is early enough and the art is spot on. Its the "Knights of St. John" for me too. (with a Shock/Formation upgrade, replaces Heavy Swordsman). So if everybody agrees with those 5 civs I'll put them in the wiki tomorrow. Then only the last 4 to go.

Hitti-Litti said:

IMO Knights of St. John would be a good name, as the Knight Hospitaller was also known as the Order of St. John. Knights of St. John sounds more historical and more awesome. Monastic Knights doesn't sound as classy as Knights of St. John.

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Fine with me. Some people will complain about the historical accuracy, but we can always refer them back to page 57 of the thread, right?

Of course you can.

I read you were looking for a new effect for great prophets a few pages back. As an incredibly rough idea, what about having something like:

Suceed Pope. The Great Prophet (representing a cardinal) would have to travel to Rome, and then could use the ability to become the new pope. This could give the host nation relation bonuses with other catholic civs, as well as maybe an ability to call a crusade on a certain civ. Obviously this would be limiteed to catholic prophets.

Kol.7 said:

I read you were looking for a new effect for great prophets a few pages back. As an incredibly rough idea, what about having something like:

Suceed Pope. The Great Prophet (representing a cardinal) would have to travel to Rome, and then could use the ability to become the new pope. This could give the host nation relation bonuses with other catholic civs, as well as maybe an ability to call a crusade on a certain civ. Obviously this would be limiteed to catholic prophets.

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I proposed a version of this idea about a year and a half ago (so I like it! ), where you could use a great prophet to take control of the AP. Your suggestion of relation bonuses is a good one. The crusade mechanics are still up in the air, but this is a possible way of handling it.

and that idea definitly reminds me of europa universalis, then again, my own idea about royal marriages is based on that as well, so it should be fine...
either way, i was just looking into the great woman mod and i m pretty sure that code could be used to represent that...
royal marriages i mean.

And what would the Orthodox, Protestant and Islamic Prophets do?

3Miro said:

And what would the Orthodox, Protestant and Islamic Prophets do?

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Actually, this would be an interesting way to differentiate between the three religions, although I'm not sure if it's possible to code it this way. If each had a separate function (i.e. one religion's GP has a special building, one might give a larger bonus when added to a city, etc), we'd have a way of differentiating slightly between religions without overpowering any one of them. Now, this is yet another thing we'd have to balance, and I'm not sure how complicated the code involved would be - but it would be an interesting addition of flavor to the mod without increasing the learning curve much.

st.lucifer said:

Actually, this would be an interesting way to differentiate between the three religions, although I'm not sure if it's possible to code it this way. If each had a separate function (i.e. one religion's GP has a special building, one might give a larger bonus when added to a city, etc), we'd have a way of differentiating slightly between religions without overpowering any one of them. Now, this is yet another thing we'd have to balance, and I'm not sure how complicated the code involved would be - but it would be an interesting addition of flavor to the mod without increasing the learning curve much.

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I will think about that.

Before I post proposals for the final 4 civs can I point out a problem with Genoa that I spotted when I was updating the wiki? While Genoa's UHV requires it to control Milano, Marseilles, Sardinia, Cyprus and Crete,
The AI Wars settler map only puts priority on Corsica, Tunisia, Cyprus and Rhodes. Also there is no incentive at all for Milano or Marseilles. I think the map needs some big alterations to fix this anomaly IMO.
I suggest downgrading Tunisia and making Sardinia and Crete a much bigger priority. And also extending the preferred area several tiles further north and west of Genoa so they will want Milano and Marseilles.

I have an idea about the great prophets, an idea that prophets of all religions would benefit:

Holy War.

When you use your great prophet for that, you get to choose which nation/religion you want to destroy with other nations of your religion. After choosing it, all nations of your religion decide whether they'll join the holy war or not(maybe the chances of joining would be 10/90 for furious, 35/65 for annoyed, 60/40 for cautious, 75/25 for pleased and 95/5 for friendly, also the religions in the cities could be a factor on the decision). I also think I have an idea how it could be coded. Choosing "Holy War" on a great prophet triggers a congress/AP meeting, all nations are invited. You choose the nation/religion you want to attack, other nations get that YES/NO/DEFY/ABSTAIN box(chances for choosing abstain should be zero for the nations with your religion, nations that aren't your religion should always choose abstain). The targetted nation/religion will always choose DEFY, thus causing a war.

How does this idea sound?