Boudica have COL, so how about giving pericles engineering + map + 40 gold for col + music + optics, and trading for boudicas map + 40 + feud seems like a good idea(for compass + music), this should hopefully be enough to give us circumnavigation, furthermore, we can likely sell our map for quite some money to the AI if we do this... If we want to delay lib as much as possible(radio is a LOT more expensive than physics), trading away lib techs seems unwise... Would be nice to know if there was some techer on the other continent that was close to lib though... Also should we switch to building a ton of cottages with emancipation comming up?
SGOTM 08 - Gypsy Kings
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I still wouldn't trade away CoL even if one AI has it. I'd rather get those maps first and make contact with the last civ (remember the welcome-gift 
) and then discuss any possible trades.
So probabely just buy world maps and stop once you find the last AI.
About cottages; in my comments earlier I mentionned that building cottages in most cities is a good idea (IMO). Most cities won't get much more productive with any other improvements (except maybe SP-workshops...).
Those workshops are worth considering anyway. At some point (not too far away) we should stop cottaging and only build workshops. If we need(ed) more research, those cities could still 'build' research. In a SG I was in/now lurking, UNGY-05, they are about to move to the 'hammer-economy', also with an early beeline to communism.
) and then discuss any possible trades.So probabely just buy world maps and stop once you find the last AI.
About cottages; in my comments earlier I mentionned that building cottages in most cities is a good idea (IMO). Most cities won't get much more productive with any other improvements (except maybe SP-workshops...).
Those workshops are worth considering anyway. At some point (not too far away) we should stop cottaging and only build workshops. If we need(ed) more research, those cities could still 'build' research. In a SG I was in/now lurking, UNGY-05, they are about to move to the 'hammer-economy', also with an early beeline to communism.
Ronnie1
Deity
Cottaging SEEMS best...but I don't think I've ever run a true hammer economy, might be nice to see how that works.
On trading....Is there any possibility that we trade a tech or 2 now that enables the AI to research something else we can get back in the future?
On trading....Is there any possibility that we trade a tech or 2 now that enables the AI to research something else we can get back in the future?
Well, we can at least get joao's for MC (IIRC), then our map should already be quite attractive to the other AIs so we won't have to add much gold. Also, we can then sell our map to every other civ (should we want that..).
Ronnie1
Deity
Oyzar is up! Knock Knock oyzar!
Hellwitch is right...if we don't kick this into gear soon, we will not finish.
I am in favor of doing ANY AND ALL trades that speed up both us and the AI...this is a teching contest after all!
Hellwitch is right...if we don't kick this into gear soon, we will not finish.
I am in favor of doing ANY AND ALL trades that speed up both us and the AI...this is a teching contest after all!
I think we should trade col + music + optics to pericles for eng + wm + gold. This way we can always sell him the world map later and we don't run the risk of him getting circumnavigation. Also he is in wehaveenoughonourhands which means that speeding him up to col won't really speed up the lib date much... Trading with boudica is too risky since she is the worst enemy of charlie and ghandi... We could do this(if we can decide on it) then discuss further as we would have a lot of new information...
adrianj
Deity
I did a quick check to confirm what mysty said about the circumnavigation. If we trade maps with Pericles WE will get the bonus.
Having said that - why not make the following trades as Mysty mentioned:
Map + 45g = Map to Joao (he will actually GIVE us gold with the map trade)
Followed by:
Map = Map + ??g to Pericles.
At the moment Pericles wants us to provide an extra 35g to trade maps. With Joao's map as well I'd expect this to become less, possibly even generating a profit for us.
I don't quite understand our desire to get feudalism or engineering right now. Surely the trades would work out better for us after we have met the other players.
As far as increasing the overall tech pace of the game, I wouldn't expect too much from the AI. Our best hope is that they go down branches of the tech tree we're neglecting - so giving them any techs related to liberalism doesn't prove very useful to us. At least not yet.
Having said that - why not make the following trades as Mysty mentioned:
Map + 45g = Map to Joao (he will actually GIVE us gold with the map trade)
Followed by:
Map = Map + ??g to Pericles.
At the moment Pericles wants us to provide an extra 35g to trade maps. With Joao's map as well I'd expect this to become less, possibly even generating a profit for us.
I don't quite understand our desire to get feudalism or engineering right now. Surely the trades would work out better for us after we have met the other players.
As far as increasing the overall tech pace of the game, I wouldn't expect too much from the AI. Our best hope is that they go down branches of the tech tree we're neglecting - so giving them any techs related to liberalism doesn't prove very useful to us. At least not yet.
We need to come to a decision at any rate on how to get pericles map, also is it possible to get boudicas map without getting traded with worst enemy determits from charlie and/or ghandi? I think my solution is best as we can always sell the map at a later date for quite a bit(it is worth 150 gold to pericles as it is now...). With those maps we could easier make decisioins about the rest of the turnset... Have anyone done any calculations on what oversea traderoutes would give us compared to what colossus gives us? Since we have glib as well delaying sci meth might even be an idea.. If AI is still a way from lib teching printing press -> democracy next is obviously a good idea. If we want to delay astro going banking -> economics next seems like an idea. But where to go after that? Assembly line gives us infantery and factories, but neither is particulary helpful to techning faster right? But is the benefit of earlier observatories(though weaker units) and labs better than the wonders we lose?
adrianj
Deity
Obsoleting Colossus:
We are currently working 62 water tiles = 62 raw commerce.
If Colossus was obsolete, this number may even come down as we reassign tiles, or it might go up as our cities grow. Lets just assume it's constant for now.
At present we have 42 intra-empire trade routes yeilding only +2 commerce. With astronomy we can expect these to increase to +3, or +4 in cities with harbours. For larger AI cities this could be as high as +5 or +6. I would expect that the increase in overseas trade income would outweigh the lost income from the Colossus. It gets even better if we build custom houses.
This assumes 3 things:
1) That we have the AI's maps - not a problem at all.
2) That the AI have approx 42 cities for us to trade with. Boudica and Pericles have 14 cities between them, and we know there is another AI with as much land area as us - so can assume they have approx 18 cities. THe remaining 10 should easily be made up by other players.
3) We have OB with the other AI. We'll need to decide who our friends are - and possibly even purposely offend some players by trading with worst enemies. We don't necessarily need really good friends, merely a bunch of AI who are cautious with us and willing to have OB.
In summary - I think getting Astronomy before Economics is a good idea, as we will also have other benefits such as selling our resources for cash or other resources, and galleons for conquering Joao.
The Great Lighthouse:
Corporation obsoletes GLH, but also gives +1 trade routes. So teching corporation will net us -1 trade routes per city.
We have 17 cities, all coastal = +3-5 commerce per city = ~51 total. There are 2 other reasons why we want to eventually research corporation:
1) Required for Assembly Line.
2) Founding corporations.
Neither of these are things we want/need in the near future. So I think we should avoid Corporation for quite some time yet.
The Great Library:
Our two scientists are earning us 6 + 85% beakers, soon to be +185% with Oxford Uni. = ~16 beakers/turn.
If we can get something expensive like Physics or Electricity from Liberalism we could save ourselves 2000+ beakers. It would take those scientists 125+ turns to generate that many beakers - so I think researching Sci Meth and obsoleting GLib is definitely worth it.
We are currently working 62 water tiles = 62 raw commerce.
If Colossus was obsolete, this number may even come down as we reassign tiles, or it might go up as our cities grow. Lets just assume it's constant for now.
At present we have 42 intra-empire trade routes yeilding only +2 commerce. With astronomy we can expect these to increase to +3, or +4 in cities with harbours. For larger AI cities this could be as high as +5 or +6. I would expect that the increase in overseas trade income would outweigh the lost income from the Colossus. It gets even better if we build custom houses.
This assumes 3 things:
1) That we have the AI's maps - not a problem at all.
2) That the AI have approx 42 cities for us to trade with. Boudica and Pericles have 14 cities between them, and we know there is another AI with as much land area as us - so can assume they have approx 18 cities. THe remaining 10 should easily be made up by other players.
3) We have OB with the other AI. We'll need to decide who our friends are - and possibly even purposely offend some players by trading with worst enemies. We don't necessarily need really good friends, merely a bunch of AI who are cautious with us and willing to have OB.
In summary - I think getting Astronomy before Economics is a good idea, as we will also have other benefits such as selling our resources for cash or other resources, and galleons for conquering Joao.
The Great Lighthouse:
Corporation obsoletes GLH, but also gives +1 trade routes. So teching corporation will net us -1 trade routes per city.
We have 17 cities, all coastal = +3-5 commerce per city = ~51 total. There are 2 other reasons why we want to eventually research corporation:
1) Required for Assembly Line.
2) Founding corporations.
Neither of these are things we want/need in the near future. So I think we should avoid Corporation for quite some time yet.
The Great Library:
Our two scientists are earning us 6 + 85% beakers, soon to be +185% with Oxford Uni. = ~16 beakers/turn.
If we can get something expensive like Physics or Electricity from Liberalism we could save ourselves 2000+ beakers. It would take those scientists 125+ turns to generate that many beakers - so I think researching Sci Meth and obsoleting GLib is definitely worth it.
Thank you for the analysis. This seems to mean one thing, something we've basically been screaming about since the beging, more workers...
Do we have a city ready to build statue of liberty? how fast will we be working how many cottages? would it be better to research astro before pp? what about before demo? Heck how many workers do we have exactly? how many do we need? and how do we plan to get them? What are we going to invade joao with? how much troops do we need exactly? when do we need them and how are we going to get them? how are they in priorities compared to workers? What about multiplier buildings like markets/banks/observatories/universities, how does those multiplier buildings stack up against each other? Why do you want to start another golden age so soon? Wouldn't it be better to wait until after we conquer joao at the very least? How do we control which GP's are used for the golden age? Is it even possible to do so? How will we get the needed GP's for the corps?
Do we have a city ready to build statue of liberty? how fast will we be working how many cottages? would it be better to research astro before pp? what about before demo? Heck how many workers do we have exactly? how many do we need? and how do we plan to get them? What are we going to invade joao with? how much troops do we need exactly? when do we need them and how are we going to get them? how are they in priorities compared to workers? What about multiplier buildings like markets/banks/observatories/universities, how does those multiplier buildings stack up against each other? Why do you want to start another golden age so soon? Wouldn't it be better to wait until after we conquer joao at the very least? How do we control which GP's are used for the golden age? Is it even possible to do so? How will we get the needed GP's for the corps?
Ronnie1
Deity
I think we need to wait just a bit in attacking Joao. My reasoning is that we still have a FEW sites we can settle for needed resources.
We are ways out, but do we know what tile count we need to get DOM?
Ideally we conquer Joao very quickly...2 move units or Cannons that do considerable damage to LB's so we can keep the bulk of the stack moving forward at all times.
I agree we need more workers....I think we also need another real good production center.
EDIT: I think we need to wait a bit to attack...but we should start building troops now probably.
We are ways out, but do we know what tile count we need to get DOM?
Ideally we conquer Joao very quickly...2 move units or Cannons that do considerable damage to LB's so we can keep the bulk of the stack moving forward at all times.
I agree we need more workers....I think we also need another real good production center.
EDIT: I think we need to wait a bit to attack...but we should start building troops now probably.
adrianj
Deity
That is a large number of questions!
I still feel myself more of an amateur player than the rest of the team, but I'll write what I feel is appropriate.
uMgung and AWat can start building them after they've finished their universities (2 and 4 turns). Ulundi could start buildnig them right now, as the courthouse isn't as important. kwaDukuza shouldn't be building a University - switch it to Workers.
I think workers are a higher priority than military.
It would be appropriate to go through all of the cities and label them as what their specialty is: Commerce or Production. Especially important for deciding whether to cottage or farm/mine. Use sign posts, so that subsequent players will also see them.
Controlling which GPs are used to trigger it is possible. Just make sure they are the only GPersons present on the tile of the one you have selected.
For the corps we need 2 scientists, 2 merchants, 2 engineers and 1 artist. We will get a free Merchant from Economics, a free scientist from Physics and a free spy from Communism.
We already have 1 artist, 1 engineer, 1 merchant and 1 scientist, and between Ulundi and Yaso it is realistic we will have another 3 or 4 within 60 turns. Total = 10 or 11. Burn 2 for Emancipation/Free Market GAge, another 3 for State Property leaves us 6.
Other decisions to make:
1) Do we hand build SoL or use an engineer for it. Using the engineer is probably very unwise now that I think about it.
2) Where do we stop. We can get Mass Media MUCH MUCH sooner than if we were to carry on after this. I don't think the other corporations are necessarily even worth it. Eg, researching biology -> medicine -> refreigeration will likely take us more than 5 turns each, hence sids sushi and cereals aren't worth it...
EDIT: cross post with Ronnie. I think we should really decide at which tech we stop the game. If it's quite soon (eg, Mass Media) then we need to get conquering much faster.
I still feel myself more of an amateur player than the rest of the team, but I'll write what I feel is appropriate.
I'm not quite sure the connection between my discussion about trade routes and this desperate need for more workers... I assume you are referring to the vast cottaging that will happen very soon?
We are approx 9 turns from Democracy if we head straight for it now. Yaso will likely be mid way through Oxford at this point. So perhaps put it in Ulundi (our second largest producer). With the engineer rushing it it shouldn't take more than 3 or 4 turns. I wouldn't delay to research Astro.
I guess as fast as possible.? We may not need emancipation immediately until we have a bunch of cottages built already. So I guess we could save the Golden Age and revolution until a few turns after Democracy. Perhaps 5 turns before we learn Economics, since we will want a 2nd revolution to Free Market at that point.
I think Demo first. The SoL is worth more than earlier astronomy. In the meantime we could build more harbours to make best use of astronomy when it comes around.
We have exactly 9 workers - for 17 cities. Admittedly a poor ratio. There is substantial cottaging to be done everywhere except Ulundi (I assume keep the farms for running specialists) and Yaso (already has them). Another 7 or 8 would be nice.
uMgung and AWat can start building them after they've finished their universities (2 and 4 turns). Ulundi could start buildnig them right now, as the courthouse isn't as important. kwaDukuza shouldn't be building a University - switch it to Workers.
Maces, Trebs and Knights I would assume. Perhaps put Guilds sooner in the tech path, eg, before astro, after Demo. I don't see any large rush to kill of Joao other than to do it while we have a tech advantage over him. After the cities mentioned above have completed enough workers switch them to barracks/troops. Eventually get the whole empire switched after their current builds and building troops - we'll have a huge army in less than the time it takes to get to Astro.
I think workers are a higher priority than military.
Depends on the specific city I guess. Our research slider is probably averaging out at 50%, but all of our specialists under representation are adding extra beakers. So I'd prioritise them just on the cost/benefit. Eg, libraries are a must because they're cheap, followed by harbour which adds raw commerce and is also cheap. Markets/Grocers/Universities are only really necessary in high commerce cities. Other cities are probably better off building forge/barracks/units.
It would be appropriate to go through all of the cities and label them as what their specialty is: Commerce or Production. Especially important for deciding whether to cottage or farm/mine. Use sign posts, so that subsequent players will also see them.
After democracy and the cottages are built we will want to switch to emancipation. Plus, come Economics (we want for free GM anyway) gives us Free Market = +1 trade routes. The golden age doesn't need to come too soon, eg, 5 or 6 turns before Economics. Although, a sooner golden age will get us to Economics sooner and the production will be useful for building units to kill Joao.
Controlling which GPs are used to trigger it is possible. Just make sure they are the only GPersons present on the tile of the one you have selected.
For the corps we need 2 scientists, 2 merchants, 2 engineers and 1 artist. We will get a free Merchant from Economics, a free scientist from Physics and a free spy from Communism.
We already have 1 artist, 1 engineer, 1 merchant and 1 scientist, and between Ulundi and Yaso it is realistic we will have another 3 or 4 within 60 turns. Total = 10 or 11. Burn 2 for Emancipation/Free Market GAge, another 3 for State Property leaves us 6.
Other decisions to make:
1) Do we hand build SoL or use an engineer for it. Using the engineer is probably very unwise now that I think about it.
2) Where do we stop. We can get Mass Media MUCH MUCH sooner than if we were to carry on after this. I don't think the other corporations are necessarily even worth it. Eg, researching biology -> medicine -> refreigeration will likely take us more than 5 turns each, hence sids sushi and cereals aren't worth it...
EDIT: cross post with Ronnie. I think we should really decide at which tech we stop the game. If it's quite soon (eg, Mass Media) then we need to get conquering much faster.
adrianj
Deity
48/62 Wonders as at turn 250.
Wonders already built/owned by us:
Palace
Ironworks
The Kremlin
Oxford University
Chichen Itza
Uni. of Sankore
Shwedagon Paya
Taj Mahal
Angkor Wat
Parthenon
Mausoleum of Maussollos
COlossus
Kong Miao
Great Library
Great Lighthouse
Oracle
Heroic Epic
Moai Statues
National Epic
Sistine Chapel
Stonehenge
Pyramids
Kashi Vishwanath
Temple of Solomon
The Spiral Minaret
Notre Dame
Church of the Nativity
Versailles
Temple of Artemis
Great Wall
Statue of Zeus
Apostolic Palace
Hanging Gardens
Eiffel Tower
Masjid-al-Haram
Hermitage
Mahabodhi
Forbidden Palace
Broadway
Cristo Redendor
Pentagon
Rock'n'Roll
Statue of Liberty
National Park
Red Cross
Wall Street
Mt Rushmore
West Point
Wonders built by AI:
Hagia Sophia (Rome - Roman)
National Wonders Remaining (and requirements)
Globe Theatre (1 turn)
Buildable Wonders (Requirements)
Hollywood (4 turns)
Space Elevator (Satellites + Robotics)
Three Gorges Dam (Plastics)
United Nations (2 turns)
Wonders requiring Great People:
Dai Miao (Prophet - Camulodunum (Celtic))
Aluminium Co (Scientist)
Cereal Mills (Merchant)
Civilized Jewelers Inc (Artist)
Creative Constructions (Engineer)
Mining Inc (Engineer)
Sid's Sushi Co (Merchant)
Standard Ethanol (Plastics, Scientist)
Wonders in Italics could be considered too far out of our way to warrant getting.
Edit: Updated list of wonders - removed tech path.
Wonders already built/owned by us:
Palace
Ironworks
The Kremlin
Oxford University
Chichen Itza
Uni. of Sankore
Shwedagon Paya
Taj Mahal
Angkor Wat
Parthenon
Mausoleum of Maussollos
COlossus
Kong Miao
Great Library
Great Lighthouse
Oracle
Heroic Epic
Moai Statues
National Epic
Sistine Chapel
Stonehenge
Pyramids
Kashi Vishwanath
Temple of Solomon
The Spiral Minaret
Notre Dame
Church of the Nativity
Versailles
Temple of Artemis
Great Wall
Statue of Zeus
Apostolic Palace
Hanging Gardens
Eiffel Tower
Masjid-al-Haram
Hermitage
Mahabodhi
Forbidden Palace
Broadway
Cristo Redendor
Pentagon
Rock'n'Roll
Statue of Liberty
National Park
Red Cross
Wall Street
Mt Rushmore
West Point
Wonders built by AI:
Hagia Sophia (Rome - Roman)
National Wonders Remaining (and requirements)
Globe Theatre (1 turn)
Buildable Wonders (Requirements)
Hollywood (4 turns)
Space Elevator (Satellites + Robotics)
Three Gorges Dam (Plastics)
United Nations (2 turns)
Wonders requiring Great People:
Dai Miao (Prophet - Camulodunum (Celtic))
Aluminium Co (Scientist)
Cereal Mills (Merchant)
Civilized Jewelers Inc (Artist)
Creative Constructions (Engineer)
Mining Inc (Engineer)
Sid's Sushi Co (Merchant)
Standard Ethanol (Plastics, Scientist)
Wonders in Italics could be considered too far out of our way to warrant getting.
Edit: Updated list of wonders - removed tech path.
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