I must be stupid. How do you trade?

el_kalkylus · Oct 5, 2001

Now I have played 5 games to 1 AD at diety level, but I still haven't found out how to trade efficiently like Smash, Starlifter and Shadowdale (or alot of other people I don't know about).

*I can't seem to build a good SCF-city, even with the colussus and Coopernicus observation (I never get theory of gravity before 1 AD). I build library there too (never get university before 1 AD).

* And it seem to be very hard to do more than 4 wonders before 1 AD.

*For me, trade routes are waste of time, because everytime you trade, you get 0+ trades in your cities, and you feel that the caravans could have been more useful on your wonders instead.

I play on diety level, so I always start with 2 settlers.
My tactic is:

*Build 2 cities 2 squares between.
*Build 2 warriors (horsemen if you start with that), then 2 phalanxes/warriors, then 2 settlers.
The warriors explore the surroundings, and depend on luck that no barbarians come out of the goodie-huts.
*Found 2 more cities without making roads.
At this time I am around 2600 BC, and must hurry to build some wonders. One city builds a temple, then the hanging gardens (so I can build more cities), the other cities builds settlers or exploring-troops (eg horsemen or diplomats).
*The settlers build some roads between the cities for more trade, and found some new cities.
*I need a SCF-city too (with the colussus and coopernicus) because I never had one, so one city must do the colussus.

The order in which I seek advances is:
*bronze-working
*alphabet
*ceremonial burial
*code of laws
*monarchy
*writing
*pottery
*currency
*trade
*now I want philosophy, then republic, then democracy.

Usually a lot of barbarians come by for a visit, and some cities have to build extra defence. If I am fast in science and get writing, I can build diplomats to buy them off.

*When I have cities that are more unhappy than before, I stop building cities, and build roads.
*When the hanging garden is done, I build more cities.
*When I get trade, I build/rush-buy some caravans to help with the wonders, and get some trade routes between the "trade-full" cities. I get 17 gp or something like that for a route and 0+ to 1+ in trade, practically nothing.
The SCF city must have at least 2 trade-routes.

This is the end of the beginning. I am usually at 1 AD with 10-20 cities, the colussus, hanging gardens, coopernicus and michelangelos chapel on it's way. I am usually at war with most civs, and need lots of money. I am in republic, but only have about 25 advances. I produce very little, and cannot make my economy go round.

Does anyone see anything wrong with my strategy? Please help! :mutant:

starlifter · Oct 6, 2001

starlifter · Oct 6, 2001

* And it seem to be very hard to do more than 4 wonders before 1 AD.

Assuming Deity already, then it depends heavily on mapsize and Starting locations! At Deity, you must pick your wonders carefully!

Essential: Colossus, Marco Polo, KRC, MC, Shakespeare, JS Bach, Hoover Dam

For me, trade routes are waste of time, because everytime you trade, you get 0+ trades in your cities, and you feel that the caravans could have been more useful on your wonders instead.

To me, early game trade routes are often not worth it. My cities trade with the SSC, in general. Trade in early monarchy is only marginally useful.

Mid/late game trade can finish the entire research tree in 40 or fewer game turns, if you lay a good foundation, esp. with SSC and some big cities & lots of freight. Two advances per turn should be possible in almost any regular or large map, in late game (about Corp. or so).

I play on diety level, so I always start with 2 settlers.

Me too, except GOTMs. Also, raging hordes.

Build 2 warriors (horsemen if you start with that), then 2 phalanxes/warriors, then 2 settlers

Not me. Pop a quick hut, if possible, but found the first city fairly quick, & make a warrior, and a settler for new city. No early phalanx! Sometimes, 2nd settler, other times begin a wonder.

Found 2 more cities without making roads.

My NONE usually makes roads. Roads allow me to collect gold from barbs, plus defend outside the city. Roads can help with trade, too, but i often build them over hills and mountains for defense to absorb barb attacks & get the leader. Depends on the lay of the land.

One city builds a temple, then the hanging gardens

Often, I never touch the HG. I certainly don't want to waste the science on Pottery. Monarchy, Philosophy, Monothiesm/Astronomy/Trade (depending). HG is nice to get, but if you can't build lots of wonders, it usually is omitted (for me).

I need a SCF-city too (with the colussus and coopernicus) because I never had one, so one city must do the colussus

Colossus is often job#1. In a succession game on a rempte island, I just switched to Marco Polo, due to isolated nature of game. Highly unusual for me to do that, though. But the game must dictate what you do, not a cookbook

.

The order in which I seek advances is:
*bronze-working
*alphabet
*ceremonial burial
*code of laws
*monarchy
*writing
*pottery
*currency
*trade
*now I want philosophy, then republic, then democracy.

Me:

- Alphabet
- CB
- CL
- ("floater" - this one depends on situation)(you cannot get directly to Monarchy in only 4)
- Monarchy
- Get to Philosophy; See how early contacts go

In very early game, avoid trading for: Horseback riding, Warrior Code, Map Making, Construction, Pottery, Wheel. These only slow your essential research to Monarchy & Philosophy. Get these for free with Marco Polo later on... never (almost never) research them yourself.... let the AI do it for you!!!

When I have cities that are more unhappy than before, I stop building cities, and build roads.

Uhhhh... "Negative, Ghostrider, the pattern is never full!!". If you have the land available, never stop expanding. If you need more roads, build more cities & make more settlers.

When the hanging garden is done, I build more cities.

I don't build the HG as a top priority, but if you do, use an early Republic. And don't stop building cities to make the HG!

When I get trade, I build/rush-buy some caravans to help with the wonders, and get some trade routes between the "trade-full" cities.

In early game, here is my advice on trade (it may contradict what some others may post): Don't bother, unless your SSC is making lots of it & the distance is fairly good with the CORRECT road constructed to get the bonus. If you are not in Republic, don't bother with trade routes & small cities. The mathematics of the game make this a foolish move, Mavrick. A 0g trade route is stupid, when you could have 25% of Marco Polo, or HG, or 12.5% of MC!!!

This is the end of the beginning. I am usually at 1 AD with 10-20 cities, the colussus, hanging gardens, coopernicus and michelangelos chapel on it's way.

A decent start, depending on conditions and map size. The SS should land about 1700 AD or so, LOL.

I am usually at war with most civs, and need lots of money.

Bad move, Mav. War is OK, just don't waste resources fighting it. Contain the enemy. Fortify/fort in key chokepoints, and fight later. Keep enemy away from your cities.

am in republic, but only have about 25 advances.

That is about right. No worries here.

I produce very little, and cannot make my economy go round.

Well, that is a problem then. If you can't make an economy work in republic, stay in Monarchy longer & use it's production & food advantages to expand until you get Democracy advance... if you can't make Democracy work, build SOL & get into Commie/Fundy, then get yourself set up for Democracy ASAP. Kill a couple civs along the way, but don't delay too long if you want an early finish (1700's SS). Dally in Commie/Fundy, and your SS will arrive in the late 1800's

.

el_kalkylus · Oct 7, 2001

Ohhh....I did almost everything wrong, at least compared to you starlifter.

I looked at the links you gave me, and I have actually spent quite a lot of time reading posts.

One thing I don't understand, is how Marco polos-wonder can make you research faster. I know you can gift/(trade with) the AI's so that you don't have to research certain advances, but then you need more science beakers for next advance right? Or did this affect the number of "research-turns" somehow? And this only worked when you give advances that the other AI's already have, right?

Alot of people seem to have different strategy in building wonders. You say it's good with King Richard's Crusade, while others think it's totally unecessary. I think it can be quite good sometimes, but if you have a good science, it will become obsolete too fast to have any use of. The war-academy advices us to build great-wall in the first hand, which noone ever talks about. Anyway, if I don't have the contacts, I will build marcopolo..., then colussus, then coopernicus (this is really a great wonder!), then I will have to see what becomes necessary.

Ok, I shouldn't get the hanging gardens as a top priority. I was just looking at some of Smash's posts before, and it seemed like a good idea at the thought of less unhappy cities. I mean, if you don't have hanging gardens, and is in monarchy, you will have a lot of black dudes, and produce almost nothing (because of all elvises). But if you say it's worth it, then I believe you.

My suspicion about trade seems to be right according to you. It is totally unecessary in the beginning. I think I will send those unecessary trade caravans to the AI instead, and get a lot more money and trade....is that a good idea? I once got 196 gp and a +3 route!!

by StarlifterBut the game must dictate what you do, not a cookbook.

Yes, I heard that alot, and I always TRY to adapt. :cool:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am usually at war with most civs, and need lots of money.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bad move, Mav. War is OK, just don't waste resources fighting it. Contain the enemy. Fortify/fort in key chokepoints, and fight later. Keep enemy away from your cities.

I always try to, but the bastards AI, are always sneak attacking which make me angry. But often, the AI is so stupid to attack me, that I don't have to produce many defensive units.

When I talk about not having my economy go around, I mean I only get about 20 gold each turn, and can't buy much for my cities.

With 25 advances, I get new advances every 12th turn in republic. That doesn't seem to good, but I know my beginning of the game wasn't too perfect either, since I only had about 2 libraries and 2 marketplaces in 20 cities. I need to "micromanage" my cities better I think. :crazyeyes:

I was looking at Smash's OCC game, and was really amazed how he could research that fast. If one city can do all that, I can imagine what several can do.

Anyway, Starlifter, sorry for not responding. I was looking at a lot of posts, and I soon have tentamen in 2 math-courses, so I had to study that too.

Thanks for the replies.

Smash · Oct 7, 2001

The Gardens is for expansion.Starlifter seems to be a little more conservative on early expansion than I.He likes to build up a smaller # of larger high trade cities and then use the economic might to kick into high gear on all fronts.Generally speaking..every game is a little different though.

I don't really have a "style".But...you can see mp influence in my early game.You have to be aggressive or you don't get a chance in that.So I tend to slap a slew of crappy little cities first.Then,the riot factor kicks in and you get problems.Thats where the Gardens comes in.You can double(at least) the # of cities you can build early.
When I play small perfectionist I'll often build The Gardens in one city and Collosus in another.Then give some luxuries just to get the Collosus/science city celebrating in Monarchy.This gives me 2 "semi'science cities" early.

I almost never go straight to Republic.Even on lower levels.I think this a mp influence also.Early on,the ai is very weak.In mp humans will show up with 12 vet elephants while you are still building warriors :eek:

so I like to feild large garrisons.When I would receive one of shadow's saves in an old succession game,I would have a fit.There would actually be cities undefended.The fact that they were completely safe due to location is no comfort to me

The OCC/Science City is very strong.When I go for a fast spaceship,I only build up 1 city.With 5-7 helper cities that do almost nothing but build caravans.They never go beyond 7 or 8 citizens.These smaller cities are easy to keep content with 0 luxuries(temple,collisuem/michs etc).This allows the max benefit of Shake's and the rest in the SSC.That last 10% is alot in a SSC.

King Richards is good but not at expense of Leo's or something and never in the SSC/OCC.Pollution is too much trouble with KRC in the SSC.It can't grow fast enough.

starlifter · Oct 7, 2001

Let me start off by saying that GOTM 09 has proved to be an exception to my general "rules"... It goes to show that there is no substitute for thinking and adapting to every situation, and that is what helps make Civ II so great. I would probably quit playing if I had a single, unchanging philosphy in every game, LOL...

One thing I don't understand, is how Marco polos-wonder can make you research faster.

After my endorsement of Marco Polo, In GOTM 09, I've decided to dis it... the small map and my Monarchy/Military strategy makes it of marginal use compared to the other wonders I need to complete (like Shakespere and MC).

know you can gift/(trade with) the AI's so that you don't have to research certain advances, but then you need more science beakers for next advance right?

Yes.

Or did this affect the number of "research-turns" somehow? And this only worked when you give advances that the other AI's already have, right?

Seeding the AI is what I call it. Keep their research directed to what you want, so you can get it.

Alot of people seem to have different strategy in building wonders. You say it's good with King Richard's Crusade, while others think it's totally unecessary.

There are so many strategies with wonders. In fact, you don't need them at all. They just help out a lot. The only ESSENTIAL one is unheralded, but it is the Apollo. Without Apollo, you can never start a SS.

Most people dis the KRC. They do not use it correctly, and that's OK. When I can't use it right, I don't emphasize getting it, either. I have a long thread explaining pollution from july sometime, and it explains KRC a lot, too. Few people probably read it, except guys like Slow Thinker... and that's OK. If people understood the math and can handle Republic, KRC is a killer wonder. Pollution is almost irrelevant, as I explain in detail in the thread.

Ok, I shouldn't get the hanging gardens as a top priority. I was just looking at some of Smash's posts before, and it seemed like a good idea at the thought of less unhappy cities. I mean, if you don't have hanging gardens, and is in monarchy, you will have a lot of black dudes, and produce almost nothing (because of all elvises). But if you say it's worth it, then I believe you.

Every game is different. And there are a lot of good HG strategies, too. In fact, I've adapted some of mine to use it in recent months. Until then, I used to never build it, unless I had nothing else to do.

In Monarchy, I will not allow Luxuries, nor Elvis... I irrigate and use a double tax or double scientist, not a single Elvis. If a city is less than 5, I'll allow a temporary elvis till a temple is built/units brought in. Also, barbs sometimes force this when I have to go and chase them.

My solution is to get to MC. You can't usually build everything... so the exact choice of wonders depends on the situation. If you can use HG (esp. in Republic!), and have the resources, then do so! In GOTM 9, I'm skipping HG... I'm in Monarchy in 1 AD anyway.

My suspicion about trade seems to be right according to you. It is totally unecessary in the beginning. I think I will send those unecessary trade caravans to the AI instead, and get a lot more money and trade....is that a good idea? I once got 196 gp and a +3 route!!

Early AI trade could be worth is. Depends. In GOTM 09, I'm not trading even with my SSC yet (in 1 AD). But I will do 3 routes very soon with the SSC, now that CO is built.

Unless you get your own cities up in size, and into Republic, and with the *proper* road system built, it is (IMHO) just a colossal waste in critical early game resources. Better to use the shields in expansion or key wonders. Think "multiply". You wanna get "bang for the buck" and multiply your shield investment to accelerate your growth. Two zero-value trades and 20g/20b is not a good return on 50 shields to me. Even a 1 arrow trade route is questionable to me. You want real value!

I always try to, but the bastards AI, are always sneak attacking which make me angry. But often, the AI is so stupid to attack me, that I don't have to produce many defensive units.

Most people often whine and cry and moan about the AI. I play with Civ II MGE, which is evidently the "worst" AI attitude. Part of my game plan requires a bad-attitude AI. In GOTM 08, the AI (esp, the Celts) were so darned cooperative that it really hurt my goals. I did not expect them to be so hard to rile, and as such, the Celts survived the game along with the greeks and my Sioux ally, LOL. That cost me about 50 points on my score, since I did not get their land to build on.

Anyway, Starlifter, sorry for not responding. I was looking at a lot of posts, and I soon have tentamen in 2 math-courses, so I had to study that too.

No worries. Study hard

.

BTW, Smash's post has some very good strategies and ideas. I personally disagree with his conclusion about the SSC/KRC combo (for reasons in my Pollution thread)... in fact, the KRC/Shake/HG/CO/INC makes for an awesome & big city that can carry an entire early empire. You will get RP icons, but very little polluted squares, even at Deity.

Overall, the "best" thing to do is learn a variety of approaches, and use what fits at the time. There is no single approach for all situations

. I am personally still learning new things from both new and experienced players all the time!

:cool:

EDIT: Here is the pollution link that has an explanation of KRC as a by-product:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=765

EDIT: Here are some KRC extracts from the Pollution thread:

by Starlifter, June 23, 2001:

...
As a sidenote: with King Richard's Crusade (KRC) and a large Republic city, the KRC is a real bargain and can build all the wonders thru Industrialization, plus a full slate of city improvements. Since KRC will add about 20 shields per turn for typically at least 40 game turns (and often more like 80), you can see KRC is a real bargain. I typically get about 1200 to 1600 shields out of the KRC wonder, and maybe 2 or 3 pollution, max. Pollution costs 8 food and 4 shields (under republic) to clean up (plust transit time and lost production/trade), which is an excellent tradeoff for the ability to quickly obtain all the wonders in the game, during that era.
...
Summary:
...
9. King Richard's Crusade is an excellent bargain if you have the right city, but is not a dire wonder to omit. Properly used, it will easily build you 4 or 5 wonders in return, and ensure its home city has all possible improvements. Best of all, there is no support cost... factory and offshore paltform, plus the fact that pre-Industrialization is effectively a Mass Transit for you, which total 11 gold per turn in the post-industrialization world. Over 80 game turns, this is an 880 gold value!

el_kalkylus · Oct 9, 2001

I have been busy again. ..

This time I played civ2 8 hours in a row (to 1 AD with some restarts, but no reloads). I have been trying varius tactics that people use. I really put a lot of effort in making the SSC good. In the end it had built 3 wonders, Colussus, Marco-polo, Coopernicus Obs., 1 temple, 1 marketplace, 1 library, 1 aqueduct and about 7 caravans, which is very good for me. A big improvement there, though I know I can do better somehow. The expansion wasn't very good, only 10 cities, but at least I built 1 more wonder, the great wall and I was halfway of building hanging gardens, but the indians got it before me. I know it's not all about building wonders, but it's a good way of showing to myself that I can produce more for each game. I think I was just too unlucky with barbarians (as usual). This time I had really prepared for barbarians to come though, and built roads so that I could take the leader...but no leaders ever came. Just regular piece of cake barbarians. :cry:

In science I got 21 advances, is that way behind? I really wanted to give my SSC the university before 1 AD, but I was about 7 turns behind from getting that advance. Wrong choices in my way to get university I guess. I have to plan my way more carefully next time. This time I got Monarchy like 3500 BC, so I only continued with BW, MM, ...., Philosophy, ...., Masonry -> Astronomy.

I got Astronomy too late, so I had to build another wonder in between. If I get Astronomy earlier, I think I can do better in science. I got masonry way too late. Masonry is something you should get in the beginning. Philosophy and that extra advance is not that important. I got it 850 BC. Maybe should have waited with it. The other civs where soo much behind, that they couldn't possible get it before 1 AD.

I think I got trade too early too. I got it before philosophy, and then I was expanding and just building a lot of settlers, so I had no time to build caravans.

I stayed up all night playing this game, and writing a log to it (almost 4 pages in word2000!). Now I am beat. Gotta wake up in 2 hours....

Oh, and thanks for the tips! I learned incredibly much from this forum.

el_kalkylus · Oct 9, 2001

I have had some thoughts.

This game I recently played, I had no contacts whatsoever until I got Marcopolos wonder at 700 BC. I tried to ally with one, little more powerful, civilization and give the advances it didn't have, but other civilizations had to my ally. Then I would let it research what I didn't research, so that we might trade later.

This didn't work too well in my game, because I think it was too late. I allied with a little less powerful civilization, with decent amount of advances (russians), and gave it a lot of advances that the others had. What I didn't think of is that I gave the other ones advances that I shouldn't have done, when I wanted to ally them before. This resulted in that I had to give the russians ALL my advances, so they actually became more advanced than me (I didn't want warrior code). Then, of course, they dissolved the alliance the next turn, LOL. And everyone started a war with me.
This is why I built the great wall, so that I could have peace again, and do a little trading.

Don't you think the great wall and marko-polos wonder is a good combo? You never have to think about war, and you can peacefully develop in science. And if you play diety level like me, when their science is quite good, maybe you will develop faster.

Another thing I was thinking about is the OCC/SCC. If a OCC can be so effective on it's own, then maybe I shouldn't build a new city so fast in the beginning. I mean, I start with 2 NONE settlers, and if you find a good spot fairly close to where you begin, you can búild just one city there, and develop it with roads, mines and irrigation with your other NONE settler. Then the SSC (if it's a good spot for SSC that is) will develop faster, and only have to build 1 settler the whole game, while the other cities try to expand. This, of course, makes you expand very slowly in the beginning, but I think I might give it a shot. It might be good to have 1 large SSC, and a lot of small other "helper"-cities.

What do you think? Or....did you already say that? in other words?

starlifter · Oct 9, 2001

Don't you think the great wall and marko-polos wonder is a good combo? You never have to think about war, and you can peacefully develop in science. And if you play diety level like me, when their science is quite good, maybe you will develop faster.

Personally, I don't build th Great Wall... I just don't have the resources for such luxuries at a point when I'm building MP, MC, KRC, HG, etc. But... if yu can get the GW, then it is always welcome

It might be good to have 1 large SSC, and a lot of small other "helper"-cities.

That is a good strategy in many games, and one that I often use

.

In science I got 21 advances, is that way behind?

That is just fine for Deity at 1 AD. I usually have in the low or mid 20's.

If a OCC can be so effective on it's own, then maybe I shouldn't build a new city so fast in the beginning. I mean, I start with 2 NONE settlers,

Expansion is important! I normally don't found a 2nd city with my 2nd none, but you've got to start chain-spawning settlers from eitehr your 1st city or the 2nd. My 2nd (or later) city will often be my SSC, esp if the 1st city can crank out settlers and have lots of extra food. My capital in GOTM 9 is not my SSC... the capital is spawing new cities because it has lots of excess food and I'm still in monarchy.

You game sounds good! But don't forget your sleep

el_kalkylus · Oct 11, 2001

Thanks for the help.

Even though you helped me in all fronts, I just can't seem to get the great start you guys have. I think I am not using my SSC right, so I will try to play some OCC games. Maybe that'll help.

Anyway thanks again.

:goodjob:

Good job!

Smash · Oct 11, 2001

The "OCC with helper cities" is a tryed and true way to the earliest landings.
Try resupporting helper city caravans/frieghts from the SSC.A trick? A cheat?...you decide.

You should always use the 2nd settler for a city ASAP.This increases the odds of nomads or advanced tribes by approx 2/3.I have no fancy tests results to show..but i know it to be true from experience.Apolytoners did do some tests and arrived at that the same conclusion.More likely if a NON does not allready exist.My general rule is "no non settlers on the same land mass".That seems to be good one to go by.I first started to notice this in OCC games where settler #2 would join the city.Numerous logs from different players made it very clear.AS soon as the settler joined..poof...nomad...send it back to join or disband...and poof...another one.Try it and you'll be convinced."Record" landings almost always include some nomads and/or advanced tribes and any game will benefit from "freebies".

el_kalkylus · Oct 11, 2001

Originally posted by Smash
The "OCC with helper cities" is a tryed and true way to the earliest landings.
Try resupporting helper city caravans/frieghts from the SSC.A trick? A cheat?...you decide.

Never tested that, but I usually only get 3 trade routes to the SSC and that's it. So far I am only playing to 1 AD so I can get better starts.

Originally posted by Smash
You should always use the 2nd settler for a city ASAP.This increases the odds of nomads or advanced tribes by approx 2/3.I have no fancy tests results to show..but i know it to be true from experience.Apolytoners did do some tests and arrived at that the same conclusion.More likely if a NON does not allready exist.My general rule is "no non settlers on the same land mass".That seems to be good one to go by.I first started to notice this in OCC games where settler #2 would join the city.Numerous logs from different players made it very clear.AS soon as the settler joined..poof...nomad...send it back to join or disband...and poof...another one.Try it and you'll be convinced."Record" landings almost always include some nomads and/or advanced tribes and any game will benefit from "freebies".

I see! That is very good to know. I tested it to see if it was true, but it seemed I only got a tribe/nomad 1/3 of the times, but that is ok I guess. I wonder if it affects the probability if the AI's have NONE settler on the island/continent. I have to test that.

Producing settlers from the cities takes a lot of time, and really stops the development, so if I can get more "freebies", that would greatly improve my starts.

Sodak · Oct 11, 2001

Originally posted by Smash
...Apolytoners did do some tests and arrived at that the same conclusion...

As often as I see variants on this quote on these forums, it really has dawned on me that we run a CivII testing lab over there!

El_kalkylus, your 3 SSC trade routes are not necessarily final for the game. A superior route can replace an existing, less valuable one. Also, even tho the SSC has 3 routes, it still is the best city (presumably, if you chose a good site) for trading - it has the most arrows and is your largest city - delivery of caravans from it will reap more gold and science beakers than from any other of your cities, even if they don't become permanent routes.

starlifter · Oct 11, 2001

by Smash:

...You should always use the 2nd settler for a city ASAP.This increases the odds of nomads or advanced tribes by approx 2/3...

Wow, i've always kept the 2nd NON to make roads, irrigation, etc. Never really questioned it... just decided it as a basic truism based on a "feel". But I have noticed that in most games, others get lots more nomads than me. I did not get a single Nomad in GOTM 9 (but conversely, and for me very unusual, I did get four sized 1 "advanced tribes"). I wonder if the Civ II program tends to give more Nomads if you don't have them (as you suggest), and more cities if your are "behind" in your city count. I was not founding cities early on in GOTM 9, and in a string of 6 huts (I think), 4 were advanced tribes. True, they are in crappy spots and I'm wiping 2 of them out, but still... once I started founding cities, not a single other advanced tribe in more than 10 huts! No nomads, either.
If I can get on to Apolyton sometime, the next thing I'll do is try to search Slow Thinker's GL. I'll bet one of them has some data

.

el_kalkylus:

So far I am only playing to 1 AD so I can get better starts.

The real key (at Deity) is turns 40 to 100. I ran thru Shadowdale's GOTM 6 first 100 moves (thru 1 AD) over a dozen times to improve my own starts. I'll just say that you are best served by learning established, repeatable methods rather than going for 'amazing' starts. Aim for an average start like I usually have, then just work on refinements. A sound, solid Democracy will more than equalize a "lucky" start.

Feel free to post a specific question if you're having trouble, or take a look at a log, particularly one of mine or noughmaster's (we start similarly, and have detailed logs). Post a good timeline and/or a couple early saves of your own, and I'm sure others would make comments for you.

El_kalkylus, your 3 SSC trade routes are not necessarily final for the game. A superior route can replace an existing, less valuable one.

It is also a crock, but less valuable trade route can replace established, more valuable routes, too

. This very thing has occurred in my own GOTM 9. I count every arrow in my SSC, and I despise it when I lose 1 or 2 or 3 arrows because of the way Civ II works. I had a 10 replaced with a 9 and a 11 with a 10, so far.

el_kalkylus · Oct 12, 2001

Originally posted by Smash
When I play small perfectionist I'll often build The Gardens in one city and Collosus in another.Then give some luxuries just to get the Collosus/science city celebrating in Monarchy.This gives me 2 "semi'science cities" early.

What do you mean semi-science cities? When the cities celebrate in Monarchy, do you get more trades??? Or do you mean you establish trade routes in monarchy?

Originally posted by Starlifter
The real key (at Deity) is turns 40 to 100. I ran thru Shadowdale's GOTM 6 first 100 moves (thru 1 AD) over a dozen times to improve my own starts. I'll just say that you are best served by learning established, repeatable methods rather than going for 'amazing' starts. Aim for an average start like I usually have, then just work on refinements. A sound, solid Democracy will more than equalize a "lucky" start. Feel free to post a specific question if you're having trouble, or take a look at a log, particularly one of mine or noughmaster's (we start similarly, and have detailed logs). Post a good timeline and/or a couple early saves of your own, and I'm sure others would make comments for you.

I will do that. :rolleyes:

I have tried to find detailed logs on GOTM6 or GOTM7, but I didn't find much.
What GOTMS are there good logs to?
And how do you put up a savegame here?

Jorge · Oct 12, 2001

Hi El_kalkylus, this are the effects of celbrating in some goberments:

MONARCHY/COMMUNISM/FUNDAMENTALISM
A celebrating city currently ruled by any of these governments collects resources as if its government is a Republic. This increases the amount of trade your citizens can produce in any terrain that generates trade goods.

REPUBLIC/DEMOCRACY
A city currently ruled by either of these governments increases in population by one point each turn it celebrates, so long as sufficient food is available. This can result in dramatic growth of the city.

So any city celebrating under monarchy obtain an extra arrow in every square that already produce any.

el_kalkylus · Oct 12, 2001

Originally posted by Jorge
Hi El_kalkylus, this are the effects of celbrating in some goberments:

MONARCHY/COMMUNISM/FUNDAMENTALISM
A celebrating city currently ruled by any of these governments collects resources as if its government is a Republic. This increases the amount of trade your citizens can produce in any terrain that generates trade goods.

Ahh, I knew it worked in Communism, but I never thought it worked in Monarchy and Fundamentalism.

Thanks.

starlifter · Oct 12, 2001

I have tried to find detailed logs on GOTM6 or GOTM7, but I didn't find much.
What GOTMS are there good logs to?
And how do you put up a savegame here?

Look in the GOTM Spoiler threads, and the logs (if any) will be there. Noughmaster has an excellent log in GOTM 9. Back in GOTM 6, Timelines and/or logs were almost non-existant in GOTMs, though people would post progress reports sometimes. To help people improve more rapidly, I began making logs (which I picked up from how OCC people like Smash usually do in OCC games

).

Many players don't keep/post GOTM logs at all though... it is optional. And honestly, it takes a lot of time to make a realy detailed log like noughmaster or I are doing. But hopefully it helps people see "how" and "why", and helps Civ II players improve rapidly.

el_kalkylus · Oct 15, 2001

Originally posted by el_kalkylus
... how do you put up a savegame here?

Do I need a homepage? Because I don't have a homepage. What do you write to attach files?

I must be stupid. How do you trade?

el_kalkylus

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Deity

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Super Lurker

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Paha Sapa Papa

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Yo mismo

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