RFC Europe Wonders

The Monastry of Cluny is too powerful.

In this mod, we have many religious buildings, and religion plays a major part. So once an early civ gets Cluny, he will be guaranteed to be tech leader for rest of the game. I built it every game.

Maybe some nerf?
 
The Monastry of Cluny is too powerful.

In this mod, we have many religious buildings, and religion plays a major part. So once an early civ gets Cluny, he will be guaranteed to be tech leader for rest of the game. I built it every game.

Maybe some nerf?

IMO you're right. The number of religious buildings is more than doubled. And with the many +X% :science: the bonus is even better. So I think it should be reduced to +1:science:.
 
Yeah, I think it can be changed to +1 :science: instead of +2 :science:. I'd also make it obsolete with printing press (makes sense).

In fact every religious building providing science should take a hit in the later part of the game, even before Scientific Method. I'd have, as proposed some weeks ago, a "printing press" related, non-religious building providing some science instead of the scriptorium (or compatible, lessening the scientific effect of the latter). Even increasing the effect of Universities.

By the end of the Middle Ages the "researching" effect of monasteries declined quickly.

Now apart from that, I remember it still is to be discussed the exact effect for the remaining wonders, which I should begin coding this weekend:

Belem Tower: trade route boost (although Magellan's Voyage has that already), enabled by Shipbuilding (I'd put it a bit later)
Tomb of Khalid ibn Al Walid: same as Statue of Zeus (Arabic Knowledge + Chivalry)
The Golden Bull: enables all religious civics (Divine Right)
Kalmar Castle: replaces Pentagon (Professional Armies)

Escorial Palace: suggested to give an economic boost; I'd put it as complementary to bureaucracy, that is, +50% :hammers:, +50% :gold: in its city. The Escorial is the great spanish monument from the time of Philip II; he was known to have spent years just signing papers everyday as the spanish bureaucracy was the biggest one in all Europe back then.

Temple Mount: jewish quarter in every city? I'd prefer it to replace the jewish shrine (prebuilt at Jerusalem) and have another wonder with some limited economic effect but also with the same "expanding judaism" effect as the shrine. It could come with a late middle ages tech.
National Bank (?): same as Wall Street, yes or no?

which Palace graphics to replace the current ones?

and something to replace the "Academy" (name and concept not appropiate, IMO) and "Scotland Yard" (Tower of London proposed), to be built by great scientist and great spy. I can't remember now, but the Military Academy can only be built by a great general after after Military Tactics, right? (unrelated issue: with a mod about the Middle Ages and after, the word "general" doesn't strike me as suitable)

Edit: I'd also welcome comments about the last wonders introduced, specially L'Enciclopedie project and Marco Polo's Embassy, which weren't discussed here before. I think some wonders are overpowered in relation to others, but it's an usual thing in Civ4, I suppose.
And about the splash images ("movies") for them. You can see them just clicking in their folder. Only need Gimp and the DDS plugin, for example.
 
Yeah, I think it can be changed to +1 :science: instead of +2 :science:. I'd also make it obsolete with printing press (makes sense).

In fact every religious building providing science should take a hit in the later part of the game, even before Scientific Method. I'd have, as proposed some weeks ago, a "printing press" related, non-religious building providing some science instead of the scriptorium (or compatible, lessening the scientific effect of the latter). Even increasing the effect of Universities.

By the end of the Middle Ages the "researching" effect of monasteries declined quickly.

Now apart from that, I remember it still is to be discussed the exact effect for the remaining wonders, which I should begin coding this weekend:

Belem Tower: trade route boost (although Magellan's Voyage has that already), enabled by Shipbuilding (I'd put it a bit later)
Tomb of Khalid ibn Al Walid: same as Statue of Zeus (Arabic Knowledge + Chivalry)
The Golden Bull: enables all religious civics (Divine Right)
Kalmar Castle: replaces Pentagon (Professional Armies)

Escorial Palace: suggested to give an economic boost; I'd put it as complementary to bureaucracy, that is, +50% :hammers:, +50% :gold: in its city. The Escorial is the great spanish monument from the time of Philip II; he was known to have spent years just signing papers everyday as the spanish bureaucracy was the biggest one in all Europe back then.

Temple Mount: jewish quarter in every city? I'd prefer it to replace the jewish shrine (prebuilt at Jerusalem) and have another wonder with some limited economic effect but also with the same "expanding judaism" effect as the shrine. It could come with a late middle ages tech.
National Bank (?): same as Wall Street, yes or no?

which Palace graphics to replace the current ones?

and something to replace the "Academy" (name and concept not appropiate, IMO) and "Scotland Yard" (Tower of London proposed), to be built by great scientist and great spy. I can't remember now, but the Military Academy can only be built by a great general after after Military Tactics, right? (unrelated issue: with a mod about the Middle Ages and after, the word "general" doesn't strike me as suitable)

Edit: I'd also welcome comments about the last wonders introduced, specially L'Enciclopedie project and Marco Polo's Embassy, which weren't discussed here before. I think some wonders are overpowered in relation to others, but it's an usual thing in Civ4, I suppose.
And about the splash images ("movies") for them. You can see them just clicking in their folder. Only need Gimp and the DDS plugin, for example.

A couple of thoughts. I'm OK with what you decide on the wonders. I agree about the Monastery of Cluny being too powerful with all the new religious buildings. We need to keep a close eye on a possible multiplier effect with some wonders as other buildings become available.
I don't think the generic word "general" is a problem for early civs. No more suitable one comes to mind. Academy could become Research Institute or even Royal Society if its going to be very late game.
I've built Marco Polo's Embassy today, playing as Venice. And the art is fine. But I also built the Basilica San Marco but didn't get any screen art at all. Didn't you want that old picture of the Piazzo San Marco I posted? If not, I'll find a better one.
Good idea with the bureaucracy link with the Escorial. Not sure about a National Bank though. That's really very late 18thC. in my opinion. When was that suggested?
I'm fine with the Bastille or preferably the Tower of London but why would you need a Great Scholar? Surely a Great Spy and a certain tech would be enough.
As far as clicking on the wonders art folders, I have no idea what "Gimp" or a "DDS plugin" is, but I'm sure I don't have them. Remember. You're dealing with a computer novice here.;)
 
That's weird, I thought San Marco had the art correctly assigned in XML. I'll look at it. And yes, I included that old picture you proposed (very nice, BTW).

I meant great spy for the Tower, great scholar for the Academy.

National Bank forgotten then. But I'd like some late game, cash-generator national wonder. Stock Exchange? (the Amsterdam one is from 1602; that remembers me East and West India Companys should provide some gold/trade route bonus)
 
I'm fine with the Bastille or preferably the Tower of London but why would you need a Great Scholar? Surely a Great Spy and a certain tech would be enough.
As far as clicking on the wonders art folders, I have no idea what "Gimp" or a "DDS plugin" is, but I'm sure I don't have them. Remember. You're dealing with a computer novice here.;)

Regarding the Escorial Palace, wouldn't it be way too powerful that way? Bureaucracy alone is on the edge whether it's too powerful a civic and providing a building which gives essentially the same bonuses (that's basically a combined Ironworks and Wall Street, you know) just shoots it over the top. How's +50%:hammers: and +50%:gold: supposed to make a city more of a center of bureaucracy? Why not give free Courthouse for every city instead, or make some sort of equalent for Summer Palace, FP and SP already existing in the game put aside? That way it would be far less overpowered and would give some strategical aspect to the wonder as well.
 
As I said before, some wonders are really too powerful compared to others. In the case of the Cluny Monastery, the problem is it just interferes in the game as a whole, because it's a too big tech rate advantage.

And right now some civs just progress too quickly in the tech tree.

If you think it's too much we can lower it to +25%,+25% instead of 50 and give also +1 free artist or merchant, or something like that. I love giving free specialists because after the end of the Middle Ages the game should have far more great people than regular RFC or pure BtS.

Edit: have in mind Wall Street and Ironworks give +100% each, not 50%, so it wouldn't really be them combined.

(that's my idea anyway)

I don't like the "Summer Palace" equivalence anyway because Versailles already does that, and as I stated before, I don't like that effect at all, makes no sense to me for a palace next to Paris (Escorial is next to Madrid, BTW). I'm not sure the AI knows how to use it well and it even diminishes the real Versailles importance, here it's just "another Summer Palace".
 
Yeah, I think it can be changed to +1 :science: instead of +2 :science:. I'd also make it obsolete with printing press (makes sense).

In fact every religious building providing science should take a hit in the later part of the game, even before Scientific Method. I'd have, as proposed some weeks ago, a "printing press" related, non-religious building providing some science instead of the scriptorium (or compatible, lessening the scientific effect of the latter). Even increasing the effect of Universities.

By the end of the Middle Ages the "researching" effect of monasteries declined quickly.

Now apart from that, I remember it still is to be discussed the exact effect for the remaining wonders, which I should begin coding this weekend:

Belem Tower: trade route boost (although Magellan's Voyage has that already), enabled by Shipbuilding (I'd put it a bit later)
Tomb of Khalid ibn Al Walid: same as Statue of Zeus (Arabic Knowledge + Chivalry)
The Golden Bull: enables all religious civics (Divine Right)
Kalmar Castle: replaces Pentagon (Professional Armies)

Escorial Palace: suggested to give an economic boost; I'd put it as complementary to bureaucracy, that is, +50% :hammers:, +50% :gold: in its city. The Escorial is the great spanish monument from the time of Philip II; he was known to have spent years just signing papers everyday as the spanish bureaucracy was the biggest one in all Europe back then.

Temple Mount: jewish quarter in every city? I'd prefer it to replace the jewish shrine (prebuilt at Jerusalem) and have another wonder with some limited economic effect but also with the same "expanding judaism" effect as the shrine. It could come with a late middle ages tech.
National Bank (?): same as Wall Street, yes or no?

which Palace graphics to replace the current ones?

and something to replace the "Academy" (name and concept not appropiate, IMO) and "Scotland Yard" (Tower of London proposed), to be built by great scientist and great spy. I can't remember now, but the Military Academy can only be built by a great general after after Military Tactics, right? (unrelated issue: with a mod about the Middle Ages and after, the word "general" doesn't strike me as suitable)

Edit: I'd also welcome comments about the last wonders introduced, specially L'Enciclopedie project and Marco Polo's Embassy, which weren't discussed here before. I think some wonders are overpowered in relation to others, but it's an usual thing in Civ4, I suppose.
And about the splash images ("movies") for them. You can see them just clicking in their folder. Only need Gimp and the DDS plugin, for example.

If the Cluny-Thing is obsolete with Printing Press, I think we shouldn't change the bonus, because the most religious buildings are late enabled, so the bonus is in the early turns not much more powerful than is was. And if you have protestantism, you don't have a bonus at all.

I think the Belem Tower should get the bonus of the M. Voyage and the M. Voyage should get +1:move: for naval units.

If you want to make the Escorial Palace the same as Bureaucracy, it should have +50%:commerce: (like the Warehouse bonusses) instead of +50%:gold:.

Someone said the Wall Street could be replaced by the Amsterdam Stock Exchange, but I think the A'dam Stock Exchange should improve corporation.
 
National Bank forgotten then. But I'd like some late game, cash-generator national wonder. Stock Exchange? (the Amsterdam one is from 1602; that remembers me East and West India Companys should provide some gold/trade route bonus)

The East and West India Companies were combined in 1602. But the Exchange building (and we talk about wonders and that are building) is opened in 1611.
 
For reminding you on my ideas of the A'dam Stock Exchange.

1. Call it: Beurs van Amsterdam. It means the same but it's in Dutch.
2. It was designed to buy and sell stocks of companies. So I think you should give them a bonus for corporations. Like giving them +10:gold: per headquarter.
3. Because it's a Trade-Wonder I think it should be anabled with Trading Companies or Economics. (it is build in 1609 (and opened in 1611) so I think it should be the last)

It also can replace the Wall Street, but I think their is a better my suggestions fits better with the original.
 
The East and West India Companies were combined in 1602. But the Exchange building (and we talk about wonders and that are building) is opened in 1611.

You're right, of course. The Amsterdam Exchange was the first stock exchange and should be a wonder.
But only the Dutch East and West India Companies merged in 1602. Other countries like England had their own versions which were quite separate.
 
Played a game as Byzantine, monarchy level.

All cities build workers first. Hook stone and marble, Constantinpole build Shrine of Uppsala, Ephesus build Cluny. Then Constantinpole build The Leaning Tower and Round Church of Preslav (bulb Civil Service!), then Notre Dame. Get GM early, incorporate Hansa League; GP create Templar.

When Arab spawns, gift them Tyre and Jerusalem BEFORE flip, I also gave Aleppo. Then Arabia converted to Orthodoxy. What a trick. Also, gift Antioch and 2 other Asia-Minor cities to Bulgaria as buffer. Lessen your empire to 9 cities.
 
I've once suggested that Escorial palace could remove stability hit due to poor economic performance, but that are only my two cents.
 
Hm. The weekend's passed and I made no progress with any wonder. I just spent time on a possible RFC:Antiquity map. Sorry.

Anyway I have some concerns with San Marco's "movie" not showing up for jessiecat. I reviewed the XML and all tags are correctly placed and written. So it should appear.

If someone can build it in another game and comment wether the problem repeats itself or not, would be appreciated.

And another thing. I have the building graphics for Dome of the Rock (new, better than vanilla) and Golden Bull, but absolutely no idea of what to use for Escorial.

I've once suggested that Escorial palace could remove stability hit due to poor economic performance, but that are only my two cents.

That's quite an idea. But I don't how to code it. Certainly would require Python changes.
 
Hm. The weekend's passed and I made no progress with any wonder. I just spent time on a possible RFC:Antiquity map. Sorry.

Anyway I have some concerns with San Marco's "movie" not showing up for jessiecat. I reviewed the XML and all tags are correctly placed and written. So it should appear.

If someone can build it in another game and comment wether the problem repeats itself or not, would be appreciated.

And another thing. I have the building graphics for Dome of the Rock (new, better than vanilla) and Golden Bull, but absolutely no idea of what to use for Escorial.



That's quite an idea. But I don't how to code it. Certainly would require Python changes.

Should I scold you for not "working" this weekend? :) Actually I got started modding RFC: Europe because I wanted to learn how in order to make my grand plan -- RFC: Birth of Civilization (all the civs would rise/fall in area of egypt-middle-east-indus valley). But, one thing at a time.

I fixed the problem with San Marco. You were missing the movie_def tag for it. Checking movie wonders is a pain. Only way I know how to do it is to use world builder to civ yourself the necessary tech and then gift yourself a bunch of great engineers too -- the movie only plays on build, so you can't just give yourself the building.

If we find art for the Escorial, I could certainly code up the necessary Python for that effect.
 
I've assigned the art from Bratislava Castle to Escorial. Could not find anything better.

If you want to code it sedna, it will be iEscorial on Consts.py.

Another thing, the button for Renaissance Art shows a greek statue. Shouldn't something from Michellangelo fit better?
 
I've assigned the art from Bratislava Castle to Escorial. Could not find anything better.

If you want to code it sedna, it will be iEscorial on Consts.py.

Another thing, the button for Renaissance Art shows a greek statue. Shouldn't something from Michellangelo fit better?

Okay, cool, I'll add the code.

Yeah, the Ren. Art button is kinda blurry too -- I'll make a more appropriate button. I know the "Polygonal Fort" button is bad too (mis-shaped border).
 
I've also done Temple Mount. Puts a Jewish Quarter in every city and spreads judaism. Requires banking and that religion in the city. I'd like to rename it to any other than that, though.

This makes me think there should be some disadvantage over having judaism in a city, because as of now religious prosecution is pretty useless. Probably a stability penalty higher than other religions if you run any other than Free Religion (much more with Theocracy). Even unhappiness.
 
Maybe a new event causing 1 turn of disorder? It could be something like this:
Your townspeople are causing riots directed against the Jewish population!
1: Let them be! (1 turn of disorder, 10% of Judaism disappearing from the city to another one)
2: Excellent! Let's support the rioters! (-X gold, 1 turn of disorder, 20% of Judaism disappearing from the city to another one, +X happiness for X turns)
3: Stop them! I want no riots in my cities! (-2X gold, +1 angry for 0.5X turns)

Maybe 2 shouldn't have a turn of disorder, but I'm not sure.
 
After some time I've finally done some wonders more. I'll post them here tomorrow morning so sedna can include them in the next test version (if it's coming this weekend as he implied in the files thread).

The Tomb of Khalid ibn Al Walid (replaces the Statue of Zeus, enemies suffer 100% war weariness, +1 Great General.)
Kalmar Castle, Sweden (replaces The Pentagon, all new units rec. +2 experience point?)
The Golden Bull, Hungary (replaces the Shwedagon Paya, enables all religion civics)
The Escorial Palace, Spain (prevents stability hit for bad economy - haven't done the python)
Temple Mount, Jerusalem (free jewish quarter in every city, +1 free merchant)
Bélem Tower, Portugal (+4 :commerce: in every water tile ONLY in that city, +2 free merchants)
change generic palace graphics

Problem: I don't like the graphics for Bélem Tower, Golden Bull and Escorial. Couldn't find anything better, though.

Added free specialists for some medium-late wonders.
Cluny now gives +1 :science: for religious buildings, obsolete at scientific method. It's lessened much so its impact now needs to be tested again.

I'm also concerned with the +50% golden age duration from St. Basil's Cathedral. It comes too late. In regular RFC you have Mausoleum as a very early wonder. That way, having it gives a great advantage because you have the bonus for every golden age from then on. It isn't difficult to have at least 2-3 GAs. Here Basil's come so late it will probably only affect 1 GA, if much.

So I would give that effect to the Dome of the Rock, put it much earlier (around Chivalry), give the "starts golden age" to Versailles, have some cultural effect for St. Basils and give the "second palace" effect to Palais des Papes ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palais_des_Papes ).

That still leaves for the next update the rest of the primary proposals given by jessiecat a while ago:

The Palazzo San Giorgio, Genoa (replaces the Statue of Liberty, +1 free specialist per city, 1 Great Merchant)
La Scala Opera House, Milan (replaces The Eiffel Tower. free monument per city)
The Copernican Revolution, Poland (as in Civ3)
Issac Newton's Laboratory, England (as in Civ3)
Rembrandt's Masterpiece, Amsterdam (culture + happiness boost in all cities?)
Mozart's Concertos, Vienna (free theatres in all cities?)
Incan/Aztec conquests I'm not sure about

and the Amsterdam Beurs.

For which we need proper art and more suggestions for their effects.
 
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