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I've run into the argument a few times recently concerning the Protestant "faith" verses the Catholic "good works" view on how to achieve salvation. From what I was reading it was implied, but not stated, that "good works" generally was considered to boil down to "how much money did you give to the Church?"

What's the real deal about that? I was raised Catholic, but stopped going to church as an adult. So I don't recall anything a priest may have said during mass. But it seems to me that the "faith" version is at least as corruptible as the "good works" version. And were I god, I would care more about actions han anything else.
 
Does the modern Catholic Church actively vie for power in a sincere effort to save souls? I think that that's a Hollywood cliche, but I also think that it's not a dead horse yet and is a completely awesome concept that leads to various good-time hijinks and shenanigans on the part of authors.
 
My question is...were the early Christians vegetarian?

...So, a lot of people are bothered by the idea of animal sacrifice, even though they encounter the products of animal sacrifice whenever they go shopping. Kosher and Halal meats are ritually slaughtered and dedicated to a deity.

In fact, I don't know if this is true for all peoples, but many cultures preserved their livestock by only eating them at special occasions. For example, at a funeral a cow or bull would be ritually slaughtered and eaten by all the guests.

Now if you go by the somewhat popular idea that Jesus was some sort of human sacrifice, it makes sense why he told people (in the gospels) to symbolically eat him. Of course you eat the sacrifice! That's good meat, and its also very spiritual because you're all eating the same thing, having a communion.

Now from some of my readings of the letters, it seems early Christians were concerned about eating meat offered to "idols." I'm assuming that means meat produced from animals slaughtered to non-Christian deities in traditional ceremonies. Would that have been the only way for anybody to get meat? Couldn't the Christians get meat slaughtered according to Jewish rites?

I'm sorry if I offended any vegetarians...I myself eat meat (with the exception of fish) very infrequently.

ps the pharisees disgust (again according to the gospels) at Jesus eating with tax collectors and prostitutes makes a bit more sense when you realize it was communal eating. People didn't get their own plates, you all ate out of the same bowls. With your hands. Hopefully everybody washed!
 
I've run into the argument a few times recently concerning the Protestant "faith" verses the Catholic "good works" view on how to achieve salvation. From what I was reading it was implied, but not stated, that "good works" generally was considered to boil down to "how much money did you give to the Church?"

What's the real deal about that? I was raised Catholic, but stopped going to church as an adult. So I don't recall anything a priest may have said during mass. But it seems to me that the "faith" version is at least as corruptible as the "good works" version. And were I god, I would care more about actions han anything else.

I am sorry to hear that you took away so little from your Catholic education. As to "good works" vs. "faith", it seems to me that God cares as much for what deeds you do as the spirit in which it is done, i.e. it is not a matter of either/or, but rather of and-and. (Also, good deeds do not a Christian make, faith does. The problem ofcourse being that while good deeds can, to some degree, be "measured", faith - as a state of grace - cannot.) To give one counter-example: While the faith of a man such as De Las Casas (thanks, Plotinus) is beyond doubt, his proposal to substitute African people for Indian people as a workforce (while no doubt intended to alleviate the latter's apparent burden) condoned the evil of the transatlantic slave trade.

And I do not concur with your supposition that faith can be corrupted; it most certainly cannot. (And while I always wonder why dressed up men, committed to a vow of non-sexuality, keep telling those not committed to such a vow how they should practice their sexuality, I do not question their faith - but I most certainly question their intelligence.)

Does the modern Catholic Church actively vie for power in a sincere effort to save souls?

I would think not (and I'm not sure if or why that should be "a Hollywood cliché"), at least not in countries where church and state are legally separated - which is not to say that individual priests are immune to the vice of ambition. (So yes, there exceptions to the rule.)
 
...So, a lot of people are bothered by the idea of animal sacrifice, even though they encounter the products of animal sacrifice whenever they go shopping. Kosher and Halal meats are ritually slaughtered and dedicated to a deity.

No they're not.

With Halal, "G-d is great" is uttered during the slaughter. That doesn't mean that the meat is dedicated to Allah. It is a way of showing gratitude.

Jews haven't dedicated an animal sacrifice to G-d since the Romans razed the Temple in 70 CE. Kosher slaughtering simply involves a pious Jew using a razor sharp, small blade to sever the jugular of the animal causing it to quickly lose consciousness & die. Yet, kosher slaughtering alone doesn't render meat kosher. The meat must then be soaked in water, salted & have major veins & arteries removed to satisfy a Biblical prohibition on consuming blood. Some religious Jews go a step further & inspect the lungs for signs of disease. The kosher meat of an animal that has passed the lung inspection is known as glatt kosher. There are then ways to render kosher meat unkosher that have to be guarded against.

I've heard your misconception of kashrut before, but the most common one I hear is that kosher food is blessed by a rabbi. It isn't. Jews don't really bless anything. We don't believe that mere humans have the ability to do so.

To me, the pervasiveness of blessing things in Christianity (boats, water, buildings, children) seems to produce an ethnocentric view that other religions must do it, too. This also seems to be the case with the Christian view of the powers of the clergy. Christian clergy have blessed things, granted indulgences, spoken in tongues, etc. In Judaism, our clergy, rabbis & cantors, don't have any more spiritual power than anyone else. They are simply leaders, teachers & mediators. In the Torah, even Moses got in trouble when it was perceived that he was taking credit for G-d's spiritual powers. Christianity went off on it's own course on these subjects & the Christian concepts don't really apply to Judaism.

Now if you go by the somewhat popular idea that Jesus was some sort of human sacrifice, it makes sense why he told people (in the gospels) to symbolically eat him.

I told someone to symbolically eat me not too long ago, too.;)

Sorry. I couldn't resist.

Now from some of my readings of the letters, it seems early Christians were concerned about eating meat offered to "idols." I'm assuming that means meat produced from animals slaughtered to non-Christian deities in traditional ceremonies. Would that have been the only way for anybody to get meat?

Of course not. How did you come to that conclusion? People raised livestock for food then just as they do now...

Couldn't the Christians get meat slaughtered according to Jewish rites?

That depends on whether or not there were any Jews who had livestock around. Being Christian, they wouldn't have needed to observe kashrut though. Meat from the local butcher would have been just fine for them & still is.

ps the pharisees disgust (again according to the gospels) at Jesus eating with tax collectors and prostitutes makes a bit more sense when you realize it was communal eating.

If you take a prostitute out to dinner, I doubt your family will be happy about it either...

People didn't get their own plates, you all ate out of the same bowls. With your hands. Hopefully everybody washed!

Observant Jews do a ritual hand washing before a meal. Back then, there were no secular Jews.

I wonder if Christians kept that ritual in the early days &, if so, when & why it vanished. Plotinus, you're the best one I know to answer that question.

I think I said this earlier in the thread, but, to me, the New Testament description of the Last Supper sounds like somebody who wasn't familiar with Jewish rituals was trying to describe a bunch of Jews sitting down to a meal. The bit about the wine & bread is what would be expected at a Jewish meal-minus the part about blood & human flesh.
 
I am sorry to hear that you took away so little from your Catholic education. As to "good works" vs. "faith", it seems to me that God cares as much for what deeds you do as the spirit in which it is done, i.e. it is not a matter of either/or, but rather of and-and. (Also, good deeds do not a Christian make, faith does. The problem ofcourse being that while good deeds can, to some degree, be "measured", faith - as a state of grace - cannot.) To give one counter-example: While the faith of a man such as De Las Casas (thanks, Plotinus) is beyond doubt, his proposal to substitute African people for Indian people as a workforce (while no doubt intended to alleviate the latter's apparent burden) condoned the evil of the transatlantic slave trade.

That doesn't really answer my question though. Let me rephrase; do some protestants now, or back during the early years of protestantism, think that what the Catholics called "good works" was really just about buying their way into heaven?

And I do not concur with your supposition that faith can be corrupted; it most certainly cannot. (And while I always wonder why dressed up men, committed to a vow of non-sexuality, keep telling those not committed to such a vow how they should practice their sexuality, I do not question their faith - but I most certainly question their intelligence.)

Your own example above is an example of corrupted faith. But there are many, many others. People who cannot see, or do not acknowledge, or think that they are justified, in crimes and hurt to others because their "faith" tells them that it is the right thing to do. I'm not saying that they are not people of faith, I am saying that their faith is what causes harm. Because many have faith with no compassion or wisdom. And it is not just Islamic terrorists. Christians of faith have virtually destroyed any remaining faith I have at this point. I would rather be an atheist, in fact, I would rather burn in hell for all eternity, that than accept some of the vile, putrid, and disgusting things some people of "faith" think of as perfectly justifiable things to do.

I'm in a state of rage right now because on another forum I'm a long time member of someone can't post an article about biology and allow people to talk about it without it being hijacked into religion. some people of "faith" simply will not tolerate anyone to have different beliefs from what they do. Now I have had a lot of conflicts with this person before, he claims to be a Mormon, and if I knew where he lived, I would be very tempted to go burn his house down, that is the kind of rage people like that put me in.

So to say that faith cannot be corrupted into something that is harmful, a statement like that is just nonsensical to me. I truly do not understand what you could possibly mean.
 
Just because church and state are separated doesn't mean that that church doesn't have power.

No one is denying that.

Let me rephrase; do some protestants now, or back during the early years of protestantism, think that what the Catholics called "good works" was really just about buying their way into heaven?

Indeed one of the causes of (the succes of) early Protestantism was the corruption of the Catholic church.

Your own example above is an example of corrupted faith. But there are many, many others. People who cannot see, or do not acknowledge, or think that they are justified, in crimes and hurt to others because their "faith" tells them that it is the right thing to do. I'm not saying that they are not people of faith, I am saying that their faith is what causes harm. Because many have faith with no compassion or wisdom. And it is not just Islamic terrorists. Christians of faith have virtually destroyed any remaining faith I have at this point. I would rather be an atheist, in fact, I would rather burn in hell for all eternity, that than accept some of the vile, putrid, and disgusting things some people of "faith" think of as perfectly justifiable things to do.

I'm in a state of rage right now because on another forum I'm a long time member of someone can't post an article about biology and allow people to talk about it without it being hijacked into religion. some people of "faith" simply will not tolerate anyone to have different beliefs from what they do. Now I have had a lot of conflicts with this person before, he claims to be a Mormon, and if I knew where he lived, I would be very tempted to go burn his house down, that is the kind of rage people like that put me in.

So to say that faith cannot be corrupted into something that is harmful, a statement like that is just nonsensical to me. I truly do not understand what you could possibly mean.

Ah, but you confuse corruption of faith and corruption of religious practices. While the latter is obvious in multiple cases, historically speaking, I must strongly contest the first.

If you are referring to De Las Casas: that is not an exampe of corrupted faith, but (as Plotinus already indicated) one of limited intelligence. The examples you are referring to, either explicitly or implicitly, would fall in the same category (i.e. human stupidity), rather than corruption of faith. Faith without wisdom is indeed a dangerous combination, but the example of "islamic terrorism" you mention is ill-chosen: regular Muslims have commented that such radicalism actually is not Islamic at all. (Which is not to say that the Islamic populace may not express support for acts of terrorism out of frustration.)

And while I certainly agree that religion, being a most emotional issue (though Plotinus would disagree), can be corrupted - and there is plenty of evidence here, historically speaking - I'll maintain that faith cannot.

But for further nuance: as Plotinus has indicated (and I certainly agree), there are plenty of instances of Christians doing their religion more harm than good. (For "Christians" you may substitute any other religion.)
 
Here's a question (or two): a while back I was searching for a song entitled Jezebel, when I came across a site named The Jezebel Spirit. Who was this Jezebel and why are certain Christians ranting about her?

Also, Plotinus, I was wondering about this book of yours (Crucible of Christianity?): has it come out yet?
 
I've run into the argument a few times recently concerning the Protestant "faith" verses the Catholic "good works" view on how to achieve salvation. From what I was reading it was implied, but not stated, that "good works" generally was considered to boil down to "how much money did you give to the Church?"

What's the real deal about that? I was raised Catholic, but stopped going to church as an adult. So I don't recall anything a priest may have said during mass. But it seems to me that the "faith" version is at least as corruptible as the "good works" version. And were I god, I would care more about actions han anything else.

This is supposedly a big difference between the Catholics and Protestants, but in my opinion most of the differences are really a matter of mutual misunderstanding. “Faith” here means an existential attitude towards God (ie, not simply belief, but reliance upon him or something like that). “Works” is ambiguous. On the one hand it can mean going out and behaving in a moral way (“good works”, as you call it). But on the other it can be something a bit more subtle – a sort of effort on the part of the believer to acquire faith. For example, if I spend all my time praying in an attempt to become closer to God, that might count as “works” in the second sense but not the first.

Both Catholics and Protestants standardly believe that faith and works are individually necessary and jointly sufficient for salvation. Note that to say that X is necessary (or sufficient) for Y is to say nothing about how they are related – in particular, it says nothing about whether one of them causes the other.

This is what the Augsburg Confession, the classic statement of Lutheranism, says:

The Augsburg Confession said:
Article 4: Of Justification 1] Also they teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for 2] Christ's sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake, who, by His death, has made satisfaction for our sins. 3] This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight. Rom. 3 and 4…

Article 6: Of New Obedience 1] Also they teach that this faith is bound to bring forth good fruits, and that it is necessary to do good works commanded by God, because of God's will, but that we should not rely on those works to merit justification 2] before God. For remission of sins and justification is apprehended by faith, as also the voice of Christ attests: When ye shall have done all these things, say: We are unprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. The same is also taught by 3] the Fathers. For Ambrose says: It is ordained of God that he who believes in Christ is saved, freely receiving remission of sins, without works, by faith alone.

So the teaching here is that a person is justified because of his faith. That does not mean it is the faith that does the justifying – rather, God does the justifying, and he justifies those (and only those) who have faith. However, it is impossible to have faith without also doing works – as it says, “this faith is bound to bring forth good fruits”. In other words, the having of faith is sufficient for the doing of works. Whoever has faith will do works. So faith is sufficient for both justification and works: whoever has faith will be justified and will also do works.

And this is what the sixth session of the Council of Trent, the classic statement of Roman Catholicism, says:

The Council of Trent said:
Chapter 7: What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
…Justification itself… is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one's proper disposition and co-operation. For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen's beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.

Chapter 8: In what manner it is to be understood, that the impious is justified by faith, and gratuitously.
And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

So the teaching here is that God justifies those who have faith and works. Faith without works is dead and worthless. So faith (at least, useful faith) must involve works. In other words, (useful) faith is sufficient for works. Once again, those (and only those) who have this combination of faith and works are justified – although it stresses that it is God who does the justifying, and not the person with faith and works. So here again it seems that faith is sufficient for works, and faith and works (combined) are sufficient for salvation.

So these are the two claims:

Faith is sufficient for works, and faith is both necessary and sufficient for salvation.
Faith is sufficient for works, and (faith and works) is both necessary and sufficient for salvation.

In fact these are exactly the same claim, expressed in different ways. If F is sufficient for W and (F&W) is necessary and sufficient for S, then F is sufficient for W and F is necessary and sufficient for S. In other words, there seems to be no difference whatsoever between the Catholic and the Lutheran doctrines.

The reasons for the disputes, of course, were that they misinterpreted each other’s doctrines. The Lutherans thought that when Catholics said that faith and works are both necessary for salvation, they were saying that faith and works both cause[//i] salvation, that is, the person’s own efforts are one of the things that cause them to be saved. And that is semi-Pelagianism, at best. The Catholics, meanwhile, thought that when Protestants said that faith alone is necessary for salvation, they were denying that faith is sufficient for works and that works are necessary for salvation, and thereby removing works from the picture altogether – raising the prospect of someone living a wicked life but nevertheless being saved on account of his faith. Both of these caricatures are of course still perpetrated today, despite the fact that you couldn’t squeeze a credit card into the gap between the actual doctrines held by the two sides.

Does the modern Catholic Church actively vie for power in a sincere effort to save souls? I think that that's a Hollywood cliche, but I also think that it's not a dead horse yet and is a completely awesome concept that leads to various good-time hijinks and shenanigans on the part of authors.

I don’t really know what you mean by “vie for power”. Can you clarify?

My question is...were the early Christians vegetarian?

...So, a lot of people are bothered by the idea of animal sacrifice, even though they encounter the products of animal sacrifice whenever they go shopping. Kosher and Halal meats are ritually slaughtered and dedicated to a deity.

In fact, I don't know if this is true for all peoples, but many cultures preserved their livestock by only eating them at special occasions. For example, at a funeral a cow or bull would be ritually slaughtered and eaten by all the guests.

Now if you go by the somewhat popular idea that Jesus was some sort of human sacrifice, it makes sense why he told people (in the gospels) to symbolically eat him. Of course you eat the sacrifice! That's good meat, and its also very spiritual because you're all eating the same thing, having a communion.

Now from some of my readings of the letters, it seems early Christians were concerned about eating meat offered to "idols." I'm assuming that means meat produced from animals slaughtered to non-Christian deities in traditional ceremonies. Would that have been the only way for anybody to get meat? Couldn't the Christians get meat slaughtered according to Jewish rites?

I'm sorry if I offended any vegetarians...I myself eat meat (with the exception of fish) very infrequently.

When Paul discusses meat offered to idols, he’s talking about pagan idols, so the context here is Greco-Roman religion, not Judaism. Paul denies that the gods in question have any real existence, something he would hardly say of the Jewish God. This is his reason for saying that it is all right to eat this meat, although he advises that if other people interpret such an action as endorsement of the god in question, one should refrain (1 Corinthians 8:1-13). Note that according to Acts 15:29, the apostles in Jerusalem (including Paul) wrote a letter forbidding all Christians from eating meat offered to idols – a letter of whose existence Paul shows no awareness in this passage.

Still, I don’t think there is any reason to suppose that this would have been the only source of meat available to Christians or indeed anyone else. So even a Christian who refrained from this kind of meat would not have been committed to vegetarianism. Later, it was not uncommon for Christians to eat vegetarian diets, but this was part of an ascetic lifestyle and nothing to do with wanting to avoid paganism or any other reason.

Jews haven't dedicated an animal sacrifice to G-d since the Romans razed the Temple in 70 CE.

Actually that’s not quite true – Ethiopian Jews continued to do so until about a century ago.

Being Christian, they wouldn't have needed to observe kashrut though. Meat from the local butcher would have been just fine for them & still is.

This isn’t actually certain. There is good evidence that at least some Christians continued to observe Jewish dietary regulations for centuries. The martyrs of Lyon of AD 177, for example, had been eating kosher meat. It is unknown what the “mainstream” Christian attitude to this was, or even if there was such a thing.

I wonder if Christians kept that ritual in the early days &, if so, when & why it vanished. Plotinus, you're the best one I know to answer that question.

I haven’t heard anything about this – I suspect it’s another thing that’s simply not known.

I think I said this earlier in the thread, but, to me, the New Testament description of the Last Supper sounds like somebody who wasn't familiar with Jewish rituals was trying to describe a bunch of Jews sitting down to a meal. The bit about the wine & bread is what would be expected at a Jewish meal-minus the part about blood & human flesh.

The different descriptions of the Last Supper are somewhat divergent anyway – note that the Synoptics think it was a Passover meal, whereas John thinks it was held the evening before the evening of Passover and therefore just a normal meal. John’s version lacks the words of institution over the bread and wine. Still, the earliest description of the event we have is 1 Corinthians 11:23-26, by Paul, who was far more familiar with ancient Jewish rituals than anyone alive today. But of course Paul’s account is rather sparse.

That doesn't really answer my question though. Let me rephrase; do some protestants now, or back during the early years of protestantism, think that what the Catholics called "good works" was really just about buying their way into heaven?

Certainly – but as I said, that’s a gross misinterpretation.

So to say that faith cannot be corrupted into something that is harmful, a statement like that is just nonsensical to me. I truly do not understand what you could possibly mean.

I think JELEEN is using the word “faith” with some mysterious meaning of his own, which allows him to make strong and unsubstantiated claims such as the claim that it “certainly cannot” be corrupted. That may be true on the mysterious definition of “faith” that he is using, but if he doesn’t tell us what that definition is, we won’t know what he’s saying. As I’ve said before, assertions of this kind are valueless unless you specify what the terms in question actually mean.

Here's a question (or two): a while back I was searching for a song entitled Jezebel, when I came across a site named The Jezebel Spirit. Who was this Jezebel and why are certain Christians ranting about her?

Jezebel is a character from 1 and 2 Kings, a queen of Israel. She is considered a “bad” character because she allows pagan gods to be worshipped in Israel, so naturally she comes to a sticky end. It seems that at least as early as New Testament times her name was applied to uppity women, since it is used in Revelation 2:20 to disparage a female Christian prophet. In later tradition Jezebel has been portrayed as a sort of wanton hussy or whore, a notion that is completely absent from the Bible itself. This is a pretty common occurrence. You find it with Delilah (commonly portrayed as winning over Samson through the use of sexual wiles) and Mary Magdalene (commonly portrayed as a prostitute converted by Jesus or who fell in love with him) – as with Jezebel, these interpretations are quite absent from the biblical text. As E.P. Sanders said, for all we know, Mary Magdalene was a virtuous 80-year-old with a thing for unkempt young men.

If there are Christians ranting about Jezebel at the moment particularly, I haven’t heard about it.

Also, Plotinus, I was wondering about this book of yours (Crucible of Christianity?): has it come out yet?

Oh no, I only finished it recently. I don’t know when it will be out but I’m guessing late this year or early next year. Books take a long time to be published.
 
What do you think of this guy - Søren Kierkegaard

We covered him in Philosophy class and I really like his thought process.
 
What do you think of this guy - Søren Kierkegaard

We covered him in Philosophy class and I really like his thought process.

I've never really read Kierkegaard much. I have to say I don't like his fideism, which is probably the aspect of his thought that has had most influence on theology and indeed on popular notions of religion in general. Kierkegaard thought that faith was a matter of the "teleological suspension of the ethical", which basically means that you go beyond what reason tells you, take a "leap of faith", and adopt a certain existential attitude. His recognition that faith is not simply a matter of cognitive belief was good, but ever since we have had both religious people and critics of religion asserting that faith and reason are fundamentally different and that religious faith is always a matter of believing something that isn't rationally supported. Indeed most people seem unaware that any alternative understandings of religious faith even exist. I suspect that this isn't really Kierkegaard's fault - it's more the fault of people who got terribly excited by him later on and made him too fashionable. Rather like Wittgenstein!

Are you aware of any Christian thinkers or writers who subscribed to the idea that humans could eventually become like God in a literal sense (ie, become gods, whatever tham meant to them)?

Pretty much the entire Orthodox Church. According to Orthodoxy, the central doctrine of Christianity is the deification of human beings as a result of the incarnation. Athanasius of Alexandria famously said that "God became man so that man might become God," and more or less the whole of Orthodox theology and spirituality ever since has been the unpacking of this statement.
 
Pretty much the entire Orthodox Church. According to Orthodoxy, the central doctrine of Christianity is the deification of human beings as a result of the incarnation. Athanasius of Alexandria famously said that "God became man so that man might become God," and more or less the whole of Orthodox theology and spirituality ever since has been the unpacking of this statement.

Really? That's interesting, I never knew that.
 
Yes, try looking up theosis for more details. There's a nice account of it here.

This is often cited as one of the major differences between western and eastern Christianity. Westerners, following Augustine, hold that the ultimate goal of human life is the vision of God. Easterners, following Gregory of Nazianzus, hold that the ultimate goal of human life is union with God. Westerners regard the eastern doctrine as blasphemously ignoring the distinction between God and creature, while easterns regard the western doctrine as impiously ignoring the radical nature of the doctrine of incarnation. Of course that's a huge over-simplification. For one thing, you can find the notion of theosis in surprisingly many western theologians too, including Calvin. But it never has the same central role that it does in Orthodox theology.
 
Mister guy who seems to have studied the field seriously:
The Church seems to have made a pretty Epic Fail of proving religion by reason: first Aquinas' rubbish proofs, then persecuting Galileo whom they later pardoned, and finally censoring every new bit of thought that came about until the sixties.
wat tenchar
wat seconded, I must have missed the bit where the Church censored the Industrial Revolution, for one
The Index of banned books - blocked Galileo, De Bauvoir and loads of other people who tried to talk sense.
How much would one have to stretch the definitions of "censoring", "every" and "banned" for this to start making sense?

Also, since I don't see it in the thread index (idly, does it index this thread too?), I might as well ask: What was the deal with Galileo? How much religion, politics, and other stuff was really involved?
For natural Web-related reasons, all the top websites on the search results are pushing agendas, Wikipedia isn't reliable for more than trivia as you among others have shown, and my dead-tree lexicon has more clues and hints than satisfactory answers.

EDIT: I see now that you had a putdown over here.
To put it briefly, the Galileo affair revolved (ha) around the nature of scientific models and the nature of scientific proof. Moreover, it was not a debate between religious people on the one hand and scientific people on the other, but both were on both sides. And moreover, the particular position that Galileo was condemned for (his insistence that (a) scientific models accurately describe the universe and are not merely predictive models, and (b) that he could definitively prove heliocentrism) did, actually, turn out to be false. So that's really not a very useful illustration for whatever it was you were trying to claim.
Still, I'd be interested in a longer version of the Galileo story if you have the time and energy to spare some day.
 
How much would one have to stretch the definitions of "censoring", "every" and "banned" for this to start making sense?

I think you'd have to stretch "censoring" a bit, "banned" a fair bit, and "every" beyond any normal meaning of the word. It's absolute rubbish.

Also, since I don't see it in the thread index (idly, does it index this thread too?), I might as well ask: What was the deal with Galileo? How much religion, politics, and other stuff was really involved?

The simple answer is that it was a very, very complex affair which was more about personalities than abstract issues. I pointed Flying Pig to the work of David Lindberg, probably the leading historian of the Galileo affair. David Lindberg wrote a short summary of the affair for a book that I edited a couple of years ago. I think it would be within the definition of "fair use" for me to quote it here.

David Lindberg said:
The story of Galileo’s defense of Copernicus’s heliocentric cosmology, leading to trial and condemnation by an intolerant Catholic church, has, for many people, become symbolic of a long-standing pattern of Christian hostility toward scientific conclusions that are inconsistent with a literal interpretation of the Bible. Galileo has thus come to be viewed as a martyr in a drama of perennial warfare. When the myths are stripped away, however, we find a truth far more complicated and a great deal more interesting than the myths it replaces.

In the summer of 1609, Galileo Galilei (1564-1642), professor of mathematics at the University of Padua in northern Italy, learned of a newly-invented scientific instrument – the telescope. He produced one for himself and turned it to the heavens, with remarkable results: ten times the number of visible stars; mountains, valleys, and craters on the moon; four moons circling Jupiter; a ring around Saturn; and a full set of phases for Venus. Galileo quickly wrote a small book on the subject, The Starry Messenger (1610), followed three years later by Letters on Sunspots (1613) – books in which he deployed his telescopic discoveries as evidence for the heliocentric (sun-centered) model of the universe. In 1611, Galileo traveled to Rome to display his new instrument. His telescopic discoveries were confirmed, and he was acclaimed by a variety of dignitaries, including the astronomers at the Jesuit College in Rome. Contrary to myth, Galileo encountered no reluctance on the part of church officials to look at the new celestial wonders through his telescope.

None of Galileo’s telescopic discoveries offered proof of the heliocentric model, but such discoveries as the phases of Venus, the rough topography of the lunar surface, and the satellites of Jupiter did contribute to its plausibility. Galileo’s books did not make many converts to heliocentrism. Indeed, worries about their compatibility with scripture, literally interpreted, became an issue around which opposition to heliocentrism could coalesce among a variety of conservative opponents. Aware of the back-stage maneuvering that was taking place and the mischief that such opposition could make, Galileo defended himself in an “open letter,” in which he argued that the Bible is not a scientific textbook and should not be interpreted literally when it appears to address scientific matters. However, rather than calming troubled waters, this open letter exacerbated Galileo’s problems, for here was a layman claiming the right to interpret Scripture. Indeed, the open letter motivated several of his critics to lodge accusations against Galileo with the Inquisition in Rome.

Aware that trouble was brewing, Galileo returned to Rome in the winter of 1515-1516, to fight smoldering fires of resentment and back-stage maneuvering against him. He was convinced that he could best his opponents in argument and convince them of the truth of the heliocentric model. While in Rome, he had frequently opportunities to make his case at dinners and other social gatherings of the Roman intelligentsia. Passionate, arrogant, and quick to display his argumentative prowess, Galileo made an occasional convert, but he also alienated some of the very people whose favor he ought to have been cultivating.

Galileo was still in Rome on 26 February 1616, when the Holy Office (the Inquisition) completed its review of the accusations made previously against Galileo and heliocentrism. On that day, he was summoned to the residence of Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (head of the Holy Office and the most powerful Catholic theologian of his day). Galileo was informed that the Copernican model had been judged false and contrary to Holy Scripture. He was admonished to abandon these opinions and forbidden to “hold, teach, or defend” them in any manner or form, either verbally or in writing. Galileo had no choice but to acquiesce.

On what grounds did the decision of the Holy Office rest? The ecclesiastical officials who decided the case argued (rightly) that neither Galileo’s telescopic observations nor the ability of the heliocentric model to make accurate astronomical predictions constituted proof that the Copernican model represented physical reality. Against this conclusion stood, first of all, church tradition, which the Roman theological establishment was not going to abandon without good reason. There were also biblical passages that apparently addressed the cosmological question:

Psalm 19:4-6: “In [the heavens God] has set a tent for the sun, which comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy. Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them.”
Ecclesiastes 1:5: “The sun rises and sets and hastens to the place of its rising.”
Joshua 10:12-13: “Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, ‘Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon.’ And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed . . .”

Were ours a heliocentric cosmos, Joshua would have commanded the earth to stop rotating on its axis.

Added to the evidence of these and several other biblical passages was a philosophical argument widely accepted by both astronomers and members of the church hierarchy – namely, that astronomical models were designed merely to predict planetary positions, with no pretense of describing physical reality. We can’t get up into the heavens to find out what’s really going on; only God knows the mechanism that underlies the celestial motions.

However, Galileo was convinced that proof was possible. In the first place, his telescopic observations comported perfectly with the heliocentric model. The phases of Venus were just what the heliocentric model predicted, as was the periodic reversal of the planets in their course through the fixed stars. The moons of Jupiter, and the earthlike topography of the moon helped to undercut objections to the heliocentric model. Galileo regarded these pieces of evidence as sufficiently convincing. But in case they failed to persuade, he believed that his theory of the tides provided the needed physical proof. The tides, he claimed, could only be the result of a double motion of the earth (rotation on its axis and simultaneous orbital motion about the sun), which caused the seas to slosh back and forth in their basins.

The ecclesiastical authorities acknowledged that, if presented with a genuine proof of the heliocentric model, they would need to reexamine their interpretation of biblical passages that seemed to teach the motion of the sun and the stability of the earth; but in the absence of a proof, there was no reason for them to tamper with the traditional, common sense interpretation of Scripture. To obtain a proper perspective on the choice, as it presented itself to Galileo’s opponents, we must recognize that the community of astronomers (or scientists more generally) overwhelmingly supported the geocentric model, and it would have been an extraordinary thing for the church to abandon its traditional interpretation, common sense, and majority scientific opinion, in order to leap onto Galileo’s lonely bandwagon. This struggle did not pit the church against Galileo and the scientific community, but the church and most of the scientific community against Galileo and a small band of disciples.

Despite the condemnation of heliocentrism by the Holy Office, Galileo was not personally threatened, nor even named in the decree – just admonished not to hold or teach the condemned theory. In 1623, a new pope was elected – Maffeo Barberini (Pope Urban VIII). This was a stroke of luck, for Barberini was considered a moderate on the subject of heliocentrism; moreover, Galileo had a history of friendly relations with him. In the course of several audiences, Urban made clear his belief that humans were, in principle, incapable of achieving certainty regarding cosmological matters. Nonetheless, he gave Galileo permission to explore the pros and cons of heliocentrism, so long as he treated it merely as an unproven hypothesis. Galileo set to work and completed his Dialogue on the Two Chief World Systems in 1629. In the book, he presented extensive, powerful arguments in favor of heliocentrism, unmistakably defending it as true. In order to adhere formally to Urban’s demand for neutrality, near the end of the Dialogue Galileo portrays his book merely as a drama, not intended to promote any particular cosmological belief – a very risky strategy. And on the final page of the book, Galileo put the Pope’s admonition about the hypothetical character of heliocentrism into the mouth of Simplicio, the slow-witted Aristotelian laughing-stock of the Dialogue.

The Dialogue did not pass smoothly through the licensing process, but after various revisions it was published in 1632, with the imprimatur of the Catholic Church. The book was an instant sensation among the literati of Rome and Florence. Urban discovered his words in the mouth of Simplicio and became convinced that Galileo had betrayed his trust and, indeed, intentionally ridiculed him. Such insubordination could not be overlooked, and it was inevitable that the machinery of the Inquisition would be set in motion against Galileo.

The principal issue in the subsequent trial was the question of the church’s authority and flagrant disobedience on Galileo’s part. Galileo was accused of violating the injunction of 1616, which forbad him to hold or defend the heliocentric model; and of this it must have been clear to everybody concerned that he was guilty. Sentence was passed, and Galileo was forced to recant. For the remaining 10 years of his life, he was under house arrest, comfortably housed in a villa just outside Florence, with few restrictions on who could come and go. He was never tortured or imprisoned – simply silenced.

What can we learn from this story? The Galileo affair was not merely an ideological conflict, but an event that had enormous human and political dimensions. After all, science and religion cannot interact. Scientists and theologians interact, and when human beings are involved, human interests are inevitably present. There were political events that were undermining Urban’s authority and made him extremely irritable, suspicious, and intolerant. And, of course, Galileo’s personality looms large in the story. If Galileo had learned diplomacy; if he had walked softly, been willing to compromise, and understood the value of strategic retreat, it is likely that he could have carried out a significant campaign on behalf of heliocentrism without condemnation.

It follows that the outcome of the Galileo affair was a contingent event, powerfully influenced by local circumstances. It was not merely about universal or global aspects of science and religion, but about the local circumstances impinging on individual historical actors--fear, jealousy, revenge, greed, bias, ambition, personality, rivalry, alliances, and political context. Historical events are situated in time and space; they are contingent, local events, and our analysis must respond to this feature of science-religion interaction.

Finally, was this, in fact, a battle between Christianity and science, an episode in the alleged warfare of science and religion – the view that has dominated understanding of the Galileo affair? In fact, every one of the actors called himself a Christian, and every one of them acknowledged the authority of the Bible. Every one of the major actors also had well-considered cosmological views, to which he – and in one case she – was entitled. Bellarmine had actually taught astronomy at the University of Louvain as a young man and fully understood the issues. Looked at closely, the battle turns out not to have been between science and Christianity, but within Christianity: between opposing theories of Biblical interpretation--the one progressive, the other traditional; and within science, between the proponents of competing cosmologies. The battle lines simply did not fall along a divide separating science from religion.

Finally, a wider view of science/religion conflict reveals that all parties generally prefer peace to warfare and manage to find means of compromise, accommodation, and peaceful coexistence. The Galileo affair is one of that minority of cases in which one party to the struggle was sufficiently powerful to dictate the terms of armistice.
 
How would you define what religion is?

I don't think it's possible. There is probably no definition of "religion" that includes everything we think of as a religion or that excludes everything we think isn't a religion. As a rule of thumb I would say that a religion is a sociological phenomenon that may include at least some of:

(1) A social organisation.
(2) A set of commonly believed doctrines.
(3) Liturgy.
(4) A moral code.

I think those are the most significant elements but of course there are plenty of religions that don't have them all, and there are probably some that have none. At the risk of sounding very pretentious, I would say that what Wittgenstein said about "games" is true of "religions" - you can't really define them, but you know them when you see them.
 
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