Grigori & The Altar of the Luonnotar

I believe that it has been stated that many have tried to worship Cassiel, but that really bothers him and he puts an end to it quickly. There is some speculation that he developed some of his vices (like his drinking problem) on purpose so that people would see him as a flawed individual less deserving of their reverence. When those he loved were suffering from a great plague he was tempted to use his power to heal them, but refused for fear it might encourage a cult around him.


Cassiel doesn't like Erebus as it is, but he doesn't think he has any right to act to change it.

Conflicts that Adventurers may want aren't really Cassiel's concern. He'd rather they just stay home and work their farms. Like the Luonnatar, they aren't really encouraged, just not stopped. In general Adventurers fallow Tali, who of all the gods is the least mature (although not fanatical enough to drag many to fight in his name).

Cassiel very much cares about human sins. He is a very ethical man (using the term loosely) who wants to make humanity (and the gods) more ethical as well. While he wants men to act in their rational best interest, he has a great dislike of the greedy. He dislikes Mammon as much as anyone. Cassiel just doesn't think that he has any personal authority to try to stop human sins unless he personally or those he loves is a victim of the crime.


I'm not sure Cassiel really teaches the Grgori that the gods aren't gods as he tries to convince them that they aren't worth following. How do we define a god anyway? By most definitions, Cassiel would be a great fool and a liar to claim the angels were not divinities. Cassiel himself does not reveal much, he asks questions to challenge men's assumptions about the angels and make them think for themselves. He has never spoken of The One, at least not to the living.


To some degree, Cassiel has come to see his goals as unattainable, and so he doesn't do much to further them. He is too depressed to take an active role, but stubborn to give up.



What makes you think Erebus has empires of hundreds of millions? I always assumed population scaled much differently in FfH. What would be a city of millions in BtS would be but a few thousand in FfH. Maybe units of population scales differently among different races too.
 
What makes you think Erebus has empires of hundreds of millions? I always assumed population scaled much differently in FfH. What would be a city of millions in BtS would be but a few thousand in FfH. Maybe units of population scales differently among different races too.

Oh, nothing makes me think so. It's just that the game tells you. If you have for example a pop 40 city, there's a whole lot of people living there. I forgot how many exactly. For a fantasy world, it's quite a strange number.
But it's a just a very minor thing and you'll only see it if you care looking for it.
The whole issue about Theocracy not fitting Grigori is very similar. I rarely look up my civics (and never run Theocracy), so that's a point that wouldn't annoy me.
But others think otherwise, so there's the issue.
 
Just name "GodKing" back to Beuracracy :D
 
But then it would make no sense being on Mysticism.

You'd have to push it back to a more "sensible" location (like Code of Laws), at which point you get it too late for it to be useful.
 
At Code of Law you could give it +50% :commerce: instead of +50% :gold: like Bureaucracy in Vanilla.
 
Luonnatars should definitely be able to build altars of the luonnatar. If there is a level requirement for building the altar, imho it should be lv 10. The only reason I would sacrifice my adventurers would be for some instant-win scheme anyways. That being said, I have only played grigs perhaps three times in total, and without a religion I easily got bored and won an early conquest victory. What units upgrade to Luonnotars? Having never had one, except maybe one time in "fire" I am a little rusty as to the reqs (other than Strength of Will iirc) of this uberunit.



And now on the current thread of conversation, I think Divine Mandate would be a better name but that still doesn't solve it sounding weird for the Grigori :P
 
the pedia says units level 6+ can upgrade
 
Spoiler victory screenshot :
religiousgrigori.jpg
Apparently you don't actually have to follow a religion to win a religious victory, nor do you have to have built the religion's wonder.
 
Spoiler victory screenshot :
religiousgrigori.jpg
Apparently you don't actually have to follow a religion to win a religious victory, nor do you have to have built the religion's wonder.

I'm guessing you captured a Holy City? How far had the faith spread when you took it? Any idea?
 
No, agnostic civs can found Empyrean or Cult of Essus because they are allowed to research the corresponding techs. I had a nice start and so was able to found CoE and spread it around enough to win before any of the AIs had founded any other religion.
 
but ... how can you win if its not ur State religion? Is this a bug workaround usable ONLY by Esus ... or is it that you only really need the holy shrine?
 
I didn't have Nox Noctis, so apparently you don't need to have the religion as your state religion and you also don't need to have built the wonder. All that seems to be needed is 80% or more of the world's population following one religion and then whoever has control of the holy city for that religion wins.

This situation is sort of specific to CoE, although not exactly because of a bug. An agnostic civ can research Honor and found Empyrean, or rescue a disciple and found the corresponding faith, but without being able to adopt a state religion the ability to spread that religion is very limited because they can't build new disciples. CoE is different, because the Nightwatch you receive can spread CoE to any number of cities as long as you declare nationality and pay the fee. Correction: Empyrean would work just fine too, because Honor gives the agnostic civ the ability to build Temple of the Empyrean in its cities which in turn allows Ecclesiastics to be built which can then spread Empyrean. Spreading other faiths is limited because the agnostic civ can't build the corresponding temple and so cannot build more disciples.

I think that winning a religious victory ought to be changed to require that you have that religion as your state religion. It should probably also require you to have built the associated wonder.

Also, I suggest that Honor and Deception should each be split into 2 techs. Honor would become Honor (90% cost to research as compared to the current Honor) and Empyrean (10% research cost of the current Honor). The new Honor would be just like the old one, except that the first civ to research it would not found the Empyrean religon and would not receive an Ecclesiastic. Researching Empyrean, which would require the new Honor as a prerequisite, would found the Empyrean religion and provide an Ecclesiastic. Similarly, Deception would be split into Deception (90% research cost) and Cult of Essus (10% research cost, requires Deception) and the founding of the Cult of Essus religion and awarding of a Nightwatch would be moved to the Cult of Essus tech. Agnostic civs would still be able to research Honor and Deception, but would not be able to research Empyrean or Cult of Essus. This would prevent agnostic civs from founding any religions (except by rescuing a disciple) but still allow them to access the other benefits of Honor and Deception if they are so inclined. Addition: The ability to build Temple of the Empyrean would need to be moved from Honor to Empyrean as well.
 
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