Matthew5117
Emperor
If your going to do a SE, you need a source of income if your not going to use Merchants. A shrine is possible, thus founding a religion all the more useful.
Edit: Also, you'll need the Pyramids.
King of the World #12: Sitting Bull
- Thread starter Neal
- Start date
If your going to do a SE, you need a source of income if your not going to use Merchants. A shrine is possible, thus founding a religion all the more useful.
Edit: Also, you'll need the Pyramids.
All right, I've got an early North America dotmap:
This is based on a 3E capital setup, which makes more sense than I first credited it with. With this, we can whip all the live long day, and pump out Workers and Settlers whenever we need to stall growth. There is something to be said for a trek to Mexico, but gambits like that have always struck me as kind of cheaty.
The city to the south, netting the Deer and the Fish, would probably be our second city and, for the most part, should confine Pacal to South America, Mexico, and the American Southwest. That 1N site (Tan) would likely steal the Plains Corn most of the time and would be our early-game production center, spamming Dog Soldiers and Archers.
Our cities on the Atlantic seaboard will be our mid- and late- game juggernauts (except maybe Miami, which could still be decent with the Moai Statues), prime for Cottaging and with some powerful production capacity, to boot. The Pacific coast will never be great, but it's not chopped liver, either, and will definitely add to the empire (Seattle more than L.A., of course).
Our Rocky Mountain city will never quite work, though with Windmills it'll at least be close. And our Canadian cities are all kind of crappy, so I look forward to your ideas.
This is based on a 3E capital setup, which makes more sense than I first credited it with. With this, we can whip all the live long day, and pump out Workers and Settlers whenever we need to stall growth. There is something to be said for a trek to Mexico, but gambits like that have always struck me as kind of cheaty.
The city to the south, netting the Deer and the Fish, would probably be our second city and, for the most part, should confine Pacal to South America, Mexico, and the American Southwest. That 1N site (Tan) would likely steal the Plains Corn most of the time and would be our early-game production center, spamming Dog Soldiers and Archers.
Our cities on the Atlantic seaboard will be our mid- and late- game juggernauts (except maybe Miami, which could still be decent with the Moai Statues), prime for Cottaging and with some powerful production capacity, to boot. The Pacific coast will never be great, but it's not chopped liver, either, and will definitely add to the empire (Seattle more than L.A., of course).
Our Rocky Mountain city will never quite work, though with Windmills it'll at least be close. And our Canadian cities are all kind of crappy, so I look forward to your ideas.
Stewie0416
Who Cares?
Canada won't be that bad, those lake tiles are like FPs.
Your IW city will probably be orange, GP farm could be a lot of choices( North America is quite food rich in some places) but I like white, nice fish, quite a lot of grassland and just enough hills. As for commerce, well SE will be great. Block off Pacal and viola! There you go!
Your IW city will probably be orange, GP farm could be a lot of choices( North America is quite food rich in some places) but I like white, nice fish, quite a lot of grassland and just enough hills. As for commerce, well SE will be great. Block off Pacal and viola! There you go!
capnvonbaron
Democratia gladii
blech... so many peaks.
Consider me subscribed though
Looking forward to it... the reverse colonization has been a long time coming.
Consider me subscribed though
Looking forward to it... the reverse colonization has been a long time coming.
Rubbaduck
Artificial waterfowl
Completely farm up that double corn site(Or make a mad dash for the triple corn+deer in mexico) and cottage the rest of your grasslands sites. An ordinary GP farm is good enough use of philo.
I am confused about the "choice" of 3E for Capital vs 1N.
Early on... I see the production much more valuable with enough food 1 corn and 1 deer over the 2/3 corn of the 3E site. As a GP farm 3E works. As I shadow the game and know the map, there is a "best" GP farm in the south of South America I plan to make my final GP site.
I would also scrap the black city on the west coast and instead move the beige/pink city (1S 2W from your spot now) to pick up the deer and a grassland making it viable and able to grab the gold and silvers long term.
One minor spoiler
Early on... I see the production much more valuable with enough food 1 corn and 1 deer over the 2/3 corn of the 3E site. As a GP farm 3E works. As I shadow the game and know the map, there is a "best" GP farm in the south of South America I plan to make my final GP site.
I would also scrap the black city on the west coast and instead move the beige/pink city (1S 2W from your spot now) to pick up the deer and a grassland making it viable and able to grab the gold and silvers long term.
One minor spoiler
Spoiler :
nbcman
King
- Joined
- May 10, 2007
- Messages
- 896
@ Neal
I don't know if you need to settle the Pink Dot/Rocky Mountain city. You can get the 2 silver from the 2nd border pop of Purple Dot and the stone from the 2nd border pop of Black Dot. Pink doesn't have the food to work the silver mines.
@ Stewie0416
Why do you say most of the Canadian lakes will be like FPs? Other than teal (directly on Uranium) the other canadian cities are all non-coastal (no Lighthouse) which means the lakes will be 2
2 
.
I don't know if you need to settle the Pink Dot/Rocky Mountain city. You can get the 2 silver from the 2nd border pop of Purple Dot and the stone from the 2nd border pop of Black Dot. Pink doesn't have the food to work the silver mines.
@ Stewie0416
Why do you say most of the Canadian lakes will be like FPs? Other than teal (directly on Uranium) the other canadian cities are all non-coastal (no Lighthouse) which means the lakes will be 2
2 .
Matthew5117
Emperor
Extra resources are always better.
I really think you (Neal) should colonize on the other continent or at least race for the Mexico City (3 corn are you kidding me?!?!?!).
nbcman
King
- Joined
- May 10, 2007
- Messages
- 896
The resources can be mined/quarried/fortified and accessed when they are in SB's cultural boundaries without building Pink Dot and paying the extra maintenance cost for an unproductive city.
fugazi
King
Just go hybrid at it - run a scientist or two in a few cities to get you the necessary bulbs and academies. Later on, get yourself a proper GP pump one bonus from the forest infested tundra is that you can get a nice national park city up there 
one bonus from the forest infested tundra is that you can get a nice national park city up there Ultimocrat
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2007
- Messages
- 274
I think settling the capital at 3 E rather than 1 N is a mistake. The math for producing workers and settlers isn't really much better. You've got 2 grassland corn tiles, and third plains corn (that will later be taken away), for 6 f+h each. But beyond that there are no tiles with better yield than 3 f+h. So you sit at pop 3, with (3+6+6+6) - 6 = 15 f+h going to worker/settler production? Or grow/whip without a granary (pottery can't be a priority that early, as you need hunting, archery, mining, bw)?
Settling 1N, at pop 3, you have two 6-value tiles and two 4-value tiles, for a total of 14 f+h. But your growth prospects are much better at pop 4 or 5, with plains hill mines, a gold mine, and a plains hill quarry as options. Say you grow to pop 4, working the corn, deer, gold, and (still forested plains hill marble -- a 4h tile with no improvements). You will equal the settler/worker production of a pop 3 city @3E with 15f+h, have 12 hammers for very fast archers, and have 5 more commerce than 3E -- crucial for getting all the techs you need for expansion. Yes, it's short on food in the longer-term and it's not going to do better than plains farms for a long stretch, but even those will stack for decent production (and they're all riverside, so this will actually be a quite decent capital after levees and biology or SP+watermills) -- I'm counting 27 base hammers at size 16.
Settling 1N, at pop 3, you have two 6-value tiles and two 4-value tiles, for a total of 14 f+h. But your growth prospects are much better at pop 4 or 5, with plains hill mines, a gold mine, and a plains hill quarry as options. Say you grow to pop 4, working the corn, deer, gold, and (still forested plains hill marble -- a 4h tile with no improvements). You will equal the settler/worker production of a pop 3 city @3E with 15f+h, have 12 hammers for very fast archers, and have 5 more commerce than 3E -- crucial for getting all the techs you need for expansion. Yes, it's short on food in the longer-term and it's not going to do better than plains farms for a long stretch, but even those will stack for decent production (and they're all riverside, so this will actually be a quite decent capital after levees and biology or SP+watermills) -- I'm counting 27 base hammers at size 16.
Yeah, I ended up putting Ironworks in my capital 1N, production is good enough. Keep yourself from chopping the plains forests and lumbermills look like a really good addition. And its not hard to keep from chopping early - its a very good city even at size 6-8.
IPEX-731BA5DD06
Deity
Settle 1 N, you can and SHOULD move your capital LATER ON!!! The early stages are about pumping out workers/settlers for new cities. 1 Military city, pumping out City Garrison 3 Archers (Barracks/Monument) will suffice, 2nd city pumping out setters/workers. You can settle North America at your leisure. Pacal can be taken with Dog Soldiers (100% v's Melee) Tech is your biggest Problem.
Do you go the Cottage route for familiarity, or the Specialist routes for Philosophical Trait?.
Early hammers that can't be pillaged, last all game long, and are boosted by forge+ Factory for 1 extra hammer (50% or 2 is 1 hammer) 3 base Hammer city, can't argue with that.
2nd city should be dual corn on river, from there, spam the North America's and build the Native American Federation (N.A.F.)
Do you go the Cottage route for familiarity, or the Specialist routes for Philosophical Trait?.
Early hammers that can't be pillaged, last all game long, and are boosted by forge+ Factory for 1 extra hammer (50% or 2 is 1 hammer) 3 base Hammer city, can't argue with that.
2nd city should be dual corn on river, from there, spam the North America's and build the Native American Federation (N.A.F.)
Gagonite
Irishman
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2005
- Messages
- 208
I've been doing a shadow game on Noble using Neal's city spots, and overall I feel they're very good spots. I was able to settler-worker spam very easily with that starting capitol in order to get the good spots. Instead of womping Pacal I became friends with him and he voluntarily vassaled to me, and now I'm merely preparing my fleet of Galleons to take my army across and begin my colonization. I think I'll start with Ragnar and take the British Isles..
pigswill
fly (one day)
I've been trying a shadow on immortal, got up to 1ad.
While I'm sure that Neal is a better player than me and will have the benefit of advice I suspect that this game is going to be tough and victory shouldn't be taken for granted.
Spoiler :
While I'm sure that Neal is a better player than me and will have the benefit of advice I suspect that this game is going to be tough and victory shouldn't be taken for granted.
Matthew5117
Emperor
^&^^ Guys, those are spoilers!
Gooblah
Heh...
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2007
- Messages
- 4,282
Not really...those were all played from the starting save, which is something Neal can comfortably experiment with in order to determine the best tech/build/settle orders.
What Rolo and I do is spoiling: leaking critical information in the later-game saves (excl. the stuff Neal could find out on the turn of the save without changing the game at all).
Jet
No, no, please. Please.
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2006
- Messages
- 2,431
They are spoilers.
I'd put city #1 1N of the spices and city #2 1S of the Mexican gold for a leisurely block with strong tile yields and two happy resources. Mining -> Wheel -> Mysticism -> BW.
Later I'd be looking at the Great Library, Taoism, and Liberalism to Astronomy. It's easy to get the bulbs and there's no need to attack Europe until you've settled out your own land.
Don't worry about any of that specialist economy business. Do designate a couple cities for specialists and run them there.
I'd put city #1 1N of the spices and city #2 1S of the Mexican gold for a leisurely block with strong tile yields and two happy resources. Mining -> Wheel -> Mysticism -> BW.
Later I'd be looking at the Great Library, Taoism, and Liberalism to Astronomy. It's easy to get the bulbs and there's no need to attack Europe until you've settled out your own land.
Don't worry about any of that specialist economy business. Do designate a couple cities for specialists and run them there.
In the beginning, all was barren. Wild corn rustled in the breeze, skittish deer paced about the forests, and brilliant metals glinted in the hills, but there was no shelter from the wind and rain, and vicious Bears and Wolves roamed the fields. The nomadic life had served the Native American people well for millenia, but, well, it got old after a while. The medicine men had visions of vast steel islands carrying braves who harnessed the very power of the storm across the open oceans, and of the untold riches of a thousand empires falling into their hands. Sitting Bull looked north, to Cahokia hill, and saw the high place from which he would conquer:
(Yeah, I decided to go with 1N. In the medium-term, it'll serve us better as a Bureaucracy capital, and long-term, we can move the Palace anyway.)
The almost magical shimmering rocks in the western mountains called to Sitting Bull- He would extract them from the earth and use them to beautify his empire. His wise men studied Mining techniques, and the Warriors, ever cautious around potential enemy tribes, gave the village to the south a wide berth.
As the Native American peoples grew bolder, they set out to claim lands farther afield from Cahokia. They hunted the deer of the forest, and conquered the nearby peaks. In addition, the southern village was subsumed into Sitting Bull's empire. Realizing that they were beaten, they sent wise men to teach the Native Americans the ways of the wind and forest:
(SCORE! I had basically punted on any shot at grabbing Stonehenge. But now, maybe, just maybe, it could be within our grasp! And even if it wasn't, we'd be needing Totem Poles, anyway)
After sending out a band of Farmers to tame the wild lands around his Palace, Sitting Bull realized that his empire would have to stretch beyond the borders of one single city. Having met the wild-eyed Mayans in the rich, rocky Mexican hillside, he knew that the race was on. The people of Cahokia wished to grow prosperous and multiply, working the fields and the new Mines that were springing up. But Sitting Bull was, as always, resolute. The people worked endlessly in the Corn Farm, and every spare ounce of grain was set aside so as to start a new colony in the far south.
In 2900 B.C., that race was won:
(It was a gamble, going Worker-Settler without allowing any population growth for a city I wasn't even assured of getting, but it paid off. I didn't mouse over it in the screenshot, but there's a Settler hanging out there in the Mayan capital!)
The people of Tenochtitlan, loyal to Sitting Bull but increasingly independent due to their distance from Cahokia, sought to build a Totem Pole to insulate themselves from the rapacious Mayan culture. Years passed before word finally arrived that the people of the homeland were working on a great Wonder that would unite the Native American people and bolster the strength of their culture: The massive Totem Pole known as Stonehenge.
(Yeah, I had Tenochtitlan devote a couple turns to Totem Pole building before I decided to make a real push at Stonehenge. I switched them over to a Worker.)
Once Sitting Bull realized the power of Bronze Working, he saw that the forests scattered across the lands could be harvested to speed production of Stonehenge. In addition, he could peel away the layer of trees that protected the hidden deposits of Gold in the Rockies. Dog Soldiers could be trained, loyal troops much more capable in combat than simple Warriors. And, finally, he realized the most powerful application of all. With Bronze chains, he could bind his people to him forever:
(Haven't resorted to the Whip yet, but, well, I figured it would be worth investing the turn of Anarchy now)
In 2475 B.C., as the Workers of Cahokia toiled away at finally claiming the glinting metals to the West, the great Totem rose to dominate the skyline:
Many years passed. The people of Cahokia finally managed to settle in and start families during the building of Stonehenge and a subsequent Barracks. Tenochtitlan, braced by the power of Stonehenge, grew in influence to confine the Maya to South America. But Sitting Bull grows impatient. He dreamed of the rest of the world growing together, sharing ideas and becoming impenetrable while the Native American people dithered about, building petty Monuments to nonexistent gods. Yes, more land would need to be conquered. Once again, grain rationing was imposed, and Settlers were trained in Cahokia. In the south, meanwhile, Barracks were being erected, so as to fend off any military ambitions Pacal might harbor. Sitting Bull turned to his Medicine Men: What should his next move be?
Here's a look at the map:
Unfortunately, our scouting Wilderness II Warrior was killed by a rabid grizzly, so fogbusting is, at the moment, an inexact science. Which is not a good thing, given that Barbarian Archers are beginning to show up.
Our sciences proper, though, are coming along nicely:
I'm researching Masonry to get Walls up and Quarries built. Then it'll be off to Archery to get us some of them supergarrisons.
So, what should city #3 be? Louisiana? The three Corn spot? Something else? I'm off to London, and I'll be back on the 26th or so, so I look forward to the discussions in the meantime.
Here's the save:
(Yeah, I decided to go with 1N. In the medium-term, it'll serve us better as a Bureaucracy capital, and long-term, we can move the Palace anyway.)
The almost magical shimmering rocks in the western mountains called to Sitting Bull- He would extract them from the earth and use them to beautify his empire. His wise men studied Mining techniques, and the Warriors, ever cautious around potential enemy tribes, gave the village to the south a wide berth.
As the Native American peoples grew bolder, they set out to claim lands farther afield from Cahokia. They hunted the deer of the forest, and conquered the nearby peaks. In addition, the southern village was subsumed into Sitting Bull's empire. Realizing that they were beaten, they sent wise men to teach the Native Americans the ways of the wind and forest:
(SCORE! I had basically punted on any shot at grabbing Stonehenge. But now, maybe, just maybe, it could be within our grasp! And even if it wasn't, we'd be needing Totem Poles, anyway)
After sending out a band of Farmers to tame the wild lands around his Palace, Sitting Bull realized that his empire would have to stretch beyond the borders of one single city. Having met the wild-eyed Mayans in the rich, rocky Mexican hillside, he knew that the race was on. The people of Cahokia wished to grow prosperous and multiply, working the fields and the new Mines that were springing up. But Sitting Bull was, as always, resolute. The people worked endlessly in the Corn Farm, and every spare ounce of grain was set aside so as to start a new colony in the far south.
In 2900 B.C., that race was won:
(It was a gamble, going Worker-Settler without allowing any population growth for a city I wasn't even assured of getting, but it paid off. I didn't mouse over it in the screenshot, but there's a Settler hanging out there in the Mayan capital!)
The people of Tenochtitlan, loyal to Sitting Bull but increasingly independent due to their distance from Cahokia, sought to build a Totem Pole to insulate themselves from the rapacious Mayan culture. Years passed before word finally arrived that the people of the homeland were working on a great Wonder that would unite the Native American people and bolster the strength of their culture: The massive Totem Pole known as Stonehenge.
(Yeah, I had Tenochtitlan devote a couple turns to Totem Pole building before I decided to make a real push at Stonehenge. I switched them over to a Worker.)
Once Sitting Bull realized the power of Bronze Working, he saw that the forests scattered across the lands could be harvested to speed production of Stonehenge. In addition, he could peel away the layer of trees that protected the hidden deposits of Gold in the Rockies. Dog Soldiers could be trained, loyal troops much more capable in combat than simple Warriors. And, finally, he realized the most powerful application of all. With Bronze chains, he could bind his people to him forever:
(Haven't resorted to the Whip yet, but, well, I figured it would be worth investing the turn of Anarchy now)
In 2475 B.C., as the Workers of Cahokia toiled away at finally claiming the glinting metals to the West, the great Totem rose to dominate the skyline:
Many years passed. The people of Cahokia finally managed to settle in and start families during the building of Stonehenge and a subsequent Barracks. Tenochtitlan, braced by the power of Stonehenge, grew in influence to confine the Maya to South America. But Sitting Bull grows impatient. He dreamed of the rest of the world growing together, sharing ideas and becoming impenetrable while the Native American people dithered about, building petty Monuments to nonexistent gods. Yes, more land would need to be conquered. Once again, grain rationing was imposed, and Settlers were trained in Cahokia. In the south, meanwhile, Barracks were being erected, so as to fend off any military ambitions Pacal might harbor. Sitting Bull turned to his Medicine Men: What should his next move be?
Here's a look at the map:
Unfortunately, our scouting Wilderness II Warrior was killed by a rabid grizzly, so fogbusting is, at the moment, an inexact science. Which is not a good thing, given that Barbarian Archers are beginning to show up.
Our sciences proper, though, are coming along nicely:
I'm researching Masonry to get Walls up and Quarries built. Then it'll be off to Archery to get us some of them supergarrisons.
So, what should city #3 be? Louisiana? The three Corn spot? Something else? I'm off to London, and I'll be back on the 26th or so, so I look forward to the discussions in the meantime.
Here's the save:
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