Is Whip/Chop overflow an Exploit? I say No

VoiceOfUnreason said:
The changes to CvCity.cpp make it clear that the patch note correctly describes the intended change (which does not match the actual change).
Click to expand...

So I assume in the unofficial patch for 3.19, the game is going to be fixed to be more like the UP for 3.17, where overflow gold was still allowed but not put through multipliers, and that based on what the intended change was from reading the patch notes, very few players will object to this change.

I'm still surprised this was stuffed up. It's a pretty damn easy thing to test in 30 seconds.
 
PieceOfMind said:
So I assume in the unofficial patch for 3.19, the game is going to be fixed to be more like the UP for 3.17, where overflow gold was still allowed but not put through multipliers, and that based on what the intended change was from reading the patch notes, very few players will object to this change.

I'm still surprised this was stuffed up. It's a pretty damn easy thing to test in 30 seconds.
Click to expand...

:wallbash:

So it sounds like overflow SHOULD be in the game, just reduced.
 
I'd be good with simply discounting the multipliers straight building gold wouldn't get... or with simply sandbagging hammers (which probably *should* decay though). As it is... it's awkward and more likely to come up in casual play than the previous implementation :(

Only half a cookie, because the other changes are good.
 
Actually unless i miss something there's no need for any gold overflow at all. Just convert all you chop/whip to hammers. There's probably an exploit of this too that i don't know though.Capping the amount of hammers is definitely not a good idea, you have to MM every time now next build is 1 turn after whip. If it really works that way now i'm a bit disappointed since it was easy to foresee the trouble coming from this.
 
Unrestricted stockpiling of hammers could be very powerful... you'd get an almost instant up-to-date army after getting a key military tech, with your production cities producing 1 unit/turn for a while. No inefficiency from upgrading, and no AIs begging you to spread your wealth around.
Stockpiling hammers for an instant Great Library/National Epic sounds as if it would give you rather ridiculous tech boost.

You used to be able to stockpile an unlimited amount of hammers from whips/chops if you built gold/science/etc in between though, and from what I've seen that wasn't much of a problem; the ability to pile up ridiculous numbers of multipliers for overflow cash before you'd have decent gold multipliers was.
Still, hammers disappearing without any compensation is rather horrible and far more intrusive than the problems we had before.
 
Dirk1302 said:
Actually unless i miss something there's no need for any gold overflow at all. Just convert all you chop/whip to hammers. There's probably an exploit of this too that i don't know though.
Click to expand...

Prebuilding. Scenario: I'm getting really close to Democracy, so my production powerhouse starts building cheap units, rolling the overflow forward until on the turn when I discover the tech I have enough overflow to insta-build the Statue of Liberty.

A variation of the prebuild "exploit" is still available, via the deferral of hammers when building Wealth/Research/Culture, but in practice you can't really do anything with that beyond pre-chopping.
 
Woe to us that the Marathon players got their way ;) (Too much overflow shouldn't be a problem with such huge build costs anyway.)

Other than one poster's test though, who else has verified that the hammers disappear after max overflow? If that is the case, it is rather horrible, but it seems almost everyone hasn't downloaded the patch out of fear of something or another (also breaking mods...) so do we really know for sure?
 
@Iranon/Vou, yes that would work. Even now it's possible to have several buildings whipped with one production turn to go in queue but you have to watch out for decay. Building something like warriors (or the like) would be a way to stock a lot of H. Hmm just 1:1 conversion as it was in the unofficial patch would have been ok then. Poor man's building wealth where you have burn your forests and do lots mm, not much gain there.
 
It is still possible to get overflow money.....

The below is from a completely impossible event in a real game, just for testing proposes
Spoiler :



The pics are separated by 2 turns, just to dump the overflow somewhere. No huts popped and always 100% research
 

Attachments

  • Ricardo BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave
    53.4 KB · Views: 51
rolo,

On the other hand, this save produces absolutely zero despite a ridiculously massive number of hammers from forest chops.
 
So there's a difference between base hammers and forest chops?
 
Oh dear, seems we'll have to hold on 3.19 until this is taken care of.
 
I find taking out the gold multiplier is fine in the patch


The thing that drives me crazy though is the removal of barrage for tanks. WTF? Tanks were already not very powerful and Germany's UU was already weak cause the AI didn't build any tanks. Why slow down warfare even more in the lare game and make us rely more on artilery.

I'm so sick and tired of relying on artillery every game. PLease don't make this worse
 
The Barrage promotion already did nothing for tanks before, that's why they took it out, assuming you were playing BtS.
 
mboettcher,

It is not simply a matter of the gold multiplier being removed, overflow gold has been messed with in a very very weird way that will usually mean 0 gold no matter how many forests you chop.
 
Dirk1302 said:
@Iranon/Vou, yes that would work. Even now it's possible to have several buildings whipped with one production turn to go in queue but you have to watch out for decay. Building something like warriors (or the like) would be a way to stock a lot of H.
Click to expand...

Cheap units in a big production city with Heroic Epic would be the biggest worry for hammer stockpiling for me. Being able to throw that kind of insane number of hammers into a wonder is a big deal.

Even if you're building reasonable units that you'll actually use (even if just for Garrison duty), it's not that hard to imagine a Heroic Epic city that puts in a decent number of hammers beyond what is required for a unit each turn. Drop Police State and a Military Academy in there and suddenly everyone is Industrious.

Would it be a problem? I don't know. It would certainly change my game quite a bit, though. Funnily enough, the Wonder that I would target with this potential new feature is West Point. As it stands now, I never build West Point in the Heroic Epic city. I don't want to waste that +100% production bonus (plus any number of production turns that a settled Great General would miss) on something that isn't a unit. With this change making an instant West Point possible, it seems like an easy choice to make for wonder pairings.
 
mboettcher said:
The thing that drives me crazy though is the removal of barrage for tanks. WTF?
Click to expand...

TF.

Essentially, before 3.17 barrage was additive, which is useless (because of rounding problems) for low strength units like cats and trebs. So they switched to a multiplicative implementation (which they further revised in this patch). Given a multiplicative implementation, the barrage promotion line does nothing for units that don't start with inherent collateral damage (tanks).

So either you pull the promotion line, or you have to dial up some baseline damage that all tanks do (and then work through the implications of that). In 3.17, they chose neither, which is clearly the wrong answer, and in 3.19 they pulled the promo line (which is the recommendation that alexman originally made to modders when the problem with the 3,17 implementation was exposed).

It's easy enough to mod back in if you miss it. You can simply restore ARMOR to the types allowed to use the Barrage promotion to get the worthless 3.17 behavior ;) and modify the collateral damage of tanks (and substitutes) to get inherent collateral damage. Both of these are straight forward XML changes.
 
mboettcher said:
I find taking out the gold multiplier is fine in the patch


The thing that drives me crazy though is the removal of barrage for tanks. WTF? Tanks were already not very powerful and Germany's UU was already weak cause the AI didn't build any tanks. Why slow down warfare even more in the lare game and make us rely more on artilery.

I'm so sick and tired of relying on artillery every game. PLease don't make this worse
Click to expand...
Not powerful? It's a 2 move 28 strength unit out of the blue with the ability to attack twice one turn. You don't rely on arty but on bombers. Or research on to my fav MA.
 
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