Balance of Early Fish related buildings

Cykur

Warlord
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
167
Too many buildings are "unlocked" by fish, creating a rather large imbalance early in the game.

Compare two small coastal empires with a few coastal cities each. One has a couple of coastal fish resources at his capitol, the other empire does not have fish. The empire with Fish gets the extra 6 food (2x3) for building work boats to harvest the local fish resource tiles. This city will also be able to support two free specialists by building a Boatyard. Finally, by having Fish, all of the first empires coastal cities can unlock Fish Traps for an extra +2 Food per city, and unlock the Fisherman's Hut to give all water tiles an extra +1 Food.

While the first empire does have more development associated with getting this up and running, the benefits soon has a massive advantage -- probably somewhere on the order of +12 or more food if the capitol is a smallish size 5-6 city, not to mention 2 free specialists (which is worth a value of an additional +6 Food). The other coastal cities are probably getting about +4 or +5 food for the fish unlocked buildings if they are also smallish cities.

Eventually other resources might give the other empire some different advantages, but an empire that starts out with Fish has so much extra food at the beginning of the game they will expand faster and be able to rapidly grow their city to max size and then support specialists. In my experience, early fish access can easily make a civ a 600lb gorilla to his neighbors by the next era.

I think one way to balance this out would be to remove the Fish bonus requirements on the Fisherman's Hut and the Fish Traps buildings. It doesn't make any sense that one would have to import Fish to unlock the ability to build these buildings in all the coastal cities.

Since Fisherman's Hut is taking the place of the old Lighthouse in RoM, I don't see the harm in removing the the Seafood based requirements so anyone with a lot of coastal tiles can build it.

Currently Fish Traps are unlocked by Fish and give bonuses if the empire has Fish, Crab, or Pearls somewhere in their empire, even if it is imported. This doesn't really make much sense, since Fish Traps are a local building and how would having an empire wide commodity benefit them? I found the simplest solution was just to remove the requirements on Fish Traps and give them a simple +1 food boost if the city was on a river or coast. This is a building that doesn't make sense to have a bonus based on empire wide resources, and if you make it so it is unlocked by fish locally, it is just a benefit for the one guy who doesn't need the food bonus anyhow, the guy who is already reaping the reward of the fish tiles. If it is just a simple building that is unlocked by water / rivers, it becomes a very useful early building to help those small cities get going that don't have limited access to food resources. (Isn't this the purpose of these super early buildings, to bootstrap your Marathon / Snail early civilization?)

I think removing the prerequisites on these buildings would make them more useful and not just of benefit to the empire that already has a great Food resource in Fish.

Thoughts?
 
hmm, you have a good point there. dropping the requirement makes some sense to me following your argumentation. though i don't exactly know why this requirement was there in first place. so maybe just give a production bonus if your empire has some sea-food resource for fishing traps and fisherman huts - something like 15% faster production for these buildings.
 
hmm, you have a good point there. dropping the requirement makes some sense to me following your argumentation. though i don't exactly know why this requirement was there in first place. so maybe just give a production bonus if your empire has some sea-food resource for fishing traps and fisherman huts - something like 15% faster production for these buildings.

There is no need for an additional bonus. You are already getting the bonanza of food for harvesting the resources, which I've noticed, are less common than before. I guess Afforess must have tweaked it to reduce the number appearing on the map.

I definitely think that the requirements should be dropped for both buildings.
 
There is no need for an additional bonus. You are already getting the bonanza of food for harvesting the resources, which I've noticed, are less common than before. I guess Afforess must have tweaked it to reduce the number appearing on the map.

I definitely think that the requirements should be dropped for both buildings.

Yeah, this is exactly my point...no need to pile on the benefits when the person with fish is already reaping one set of rewards for having them.
 
It appears that the general consensus is that the Resource Requirements should be dropped. I will make that change now, for Better RoM.
 
It appears that the general consensus is that the Resource Requirements should be dropped. I will make that change now, for Better RoM.

For Fish Traps I had removed all the yield bonuses for empire wide resources since Fish Traps are local and just given it a straight +1 food for to help cities on a river / coast. Didn't make sense to benefit from pearls / crab from somewhere else and I couldn't get the yield bonuses to work for local only resources.

I experimented with trying to add VicinityBonus requirements for the yield bonuses, but the schema didn't like it. Seems like you can use a VicinityBonus tag to unlock a building, but not to control specifically what bonuses it gets. Maybe you know a way.

Thanks for looking into this!
 
I agree on dropping the prereqs of seafoods for Fisherman's Hut. Neutral on Fish Traps until such a time I play with Early Buildings again :).
 
I've changed the fish traps to require fish, or crab, or shrimp in the city vicinity to be built. No more importing to build them. It now provides 1 food per resource listed above, for a max of 3 food, min of 1. Sound good?
 
I've changed the fish traps to require fish, or crab, or shrimp in the city vicinity to be built. No more importing to build them. It now provides 1 food per resource listed above, for a max of 3 food, min of 1. Sound good?

Sounds good to me. I'm curious to see how you did it. When I tried it I couldn't get the food yields to work off of a VicinityBonus once the building had been unlocked.
 
I've changed the fish traps to require fish, or crab, or shrimp in the city vicinity to be built. No more importing to build them. It now provides 1 food per resource listed above, for a max of 3 food, min of 1. Sound good?

I thought the fish traps were for rivers. How can a river far up stream have sea resources in the city vicinity? This makes no sense. This was made to be a fish trap for rivers not the sea. That's what the fishing hut was for. If anything it should not have any requirements other than being on a river (like it is) and then only give a bonus from fish, crab, shrimp or clams if they are in the city vicinity. Plus a like +1 food without any resources present to simulate it fishing the fish in the river.
 
I thought the fish traps were for rivers. How can a river far up stream have sea resources in the city vicinity? This makes no sense. This was made to be a fish trap for rivers not the sea. That's what the fishing hut was for. If anything it should not have any requirements other than being on a river (like it is) and then only give a bonus from fish, crab, shrimp or clams if they are in the city vicinity. Plus a like +1 food without any resources present to simulate it fishing the fish in the river.

This makes sense too that it is a river available building in addition to coast. (There are fish traps on the coast too.) If you make it a river available building, you have to remove the bonus requirements because major food resources like crab, shrimp, and clams don't occur on a river. Freshwater crabs are tiny littler buggers, and clams aren't caught by traps anyhow. A solution would be to just give the building straight food bonus not dependent on resources.
 
This makes sense too that it is a river available building in addition to coast. (There are fish traps on the coast too.) If you make it a river available building, you have to remove the bonus requirements because major food resources like crab, shrimp, and clams don't occur on a river. Freshwater crabs are tiny littler buggers, and clams aren't caught by traps anyhow. A solution would be to just give the building straight food bonus not dependent on resources.

As for shrimp and clams, there are freshwater mollusks (think muscles) as well as freshwater crustaceans (think prawns)
 
So you are saying we should keep the resource requirements? Make up your mind.

I am saying that they should get bonuses from fish, shrimp, clam or crab in the city vicinity but not require them to build it. Such as ...

Fish Trap (Req Fishing)
Cost: ?
Req Location: River
Obsolete: ?

Special Abilities
  • +1 Food
  • +1 Food with Fish in City Vicinity
  • +1 Food with Crab in City Vicinity
  • +1 Food with Shrimp in City Vicinity
  • +1 Food with Clam in City Vicinity
 
I am saying that they should get bonuses from fish, shrimp, clam or crab in the city vicinity but not require them to build it. Such as ...

Fish Trap (Req Fishing)
Cost: ?
Req Location: River
Obsolete: ?

Special Abilities
  • +1 Food
  • +1 Food with Fish in City Vicinity
  • +1 Food with Crab in City Vicinity
  • +1 Food with Shrimp in City Vicinity
  • +1 Food with Clam in City Vicinity

That would be fine. How do you code vicinity yield bonuses? I couldn't find a schema for it when I was looking at other buildings, they all use empire wide resources to determine yield bonuses. I found you can unlock a building with a vicinity bonus, but I couldn't do the same with yields.
 
Vicinity bonus was designed to make buildings only buildable if a resource was in the working area of a city. Note while cities can't both work a plot they can share it for the purposes of determining vicinity. It was not designed for what Hydro wants.
 
Vicinity bonus was designed to make buildings only buildable if a resource was in the working area of a city. Note while cities can't both work a plot they can share it for the purposes of determining vicinity. It was not designed for what Hydro wants.

Thanks for the confirming this...I couldn't get it to work and had wondered if the experienced modders knew of a way.

So you can make Fish Traps have a vicinity bonus requirements for a seafood resources, but then you will exclude river cities and coastal cities lacking in the resource. Or you can make it require rivers & water like it currently does and just give a straight food yield bonus -- I was thinking +1 since it is an early building and should just give a little boost to help starting cities.
 
Vicinity bonus was designed to make buildings only buildable if a resource was in the working area of a city. Note while cities can't both work a plot they can share it for the purposes of determining vicinity. It was not designed for what Hydro wants.

Could it be designed to through an SKD request?

Thanks for the confirming this...I couldn't get it to work and had wondered if the experienced modders knew of a way.

So you can make Fish Traps have a vicinity bonus requirements for a seafood resources, but then you will exclude river cities and coastal cities lacking in the resource. Or you can make it require rivers & water like it currently does and just give a straight food yield bonus -- I was thinking +1 since it is an early building and should just give a little boost to help starting cities.

Or you could just skip all the seafood resource bonus stuff and have it give +1 food for every river tile in the city radius.
 
Could it be designed to through an SKD request?



Or you could just skip all the seafood resource bonus stuff and have it give +1 food for every river tile in the city radius.

Considering river heavy cities tend to have a flood plains or two, this could be very overpowered for a city with lots of river tiles. I don't really see what is wrong with having the building give a simple +1 food boost for having river / coast access. It isn't a very expensive building, the whole point of it is just to give new cities a little kickstart.
 
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