dingding
Prince
@ Duckweed:
Plan looks ok. Can you tell us about the warrior movement?
Plan looks ok. Can you tell us about the warrior movement?
SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
dingding
Prince
In addition to what kossin explained:
Usually I consider researching Monarchy as a waste of beakers since AI prioticize it a lot no matter on which difficulty and there is no "We don't want to trade this tech yet" with it.
If we are to pick something else than CoL from the Oracle, I will suggest Alphabet. Spread it early will help us to win the game earlier.
Oracle can goes before 1500BC in emperor in some rare cases. Let's hear the Bud and Hindu date. The chance that it will be gone early is high if there are Ind and/or Religious leaders in the game. HC is the worst. Since we want CoL from Oracle, too rapid expansion can drag our research to Priest and Writing. There's no commercial resource if SIP, hope there's one when settling on PH or we can get it in 2nd city.
I usually don't think about tech before actually settle the city. This starting site is just too obvious what tech should go. However, what's next is largely depend on surrounding area and what goal we want to achieve next.
I guess it's very hard to tell even which direction to go, but generally I tend to scout the AI's direction to see if we need a block
Udey1
Prince
go for it
Saved file Uploaded.
Here's the Log
Played as planned. Here's some highlights.
Turn 0 -- Settler SE to PH, Warrior to NE. 2 tundra hill and 1 ice tile in BFC, but we gain silver. No doubt it's a better capital site to help early expansion and teching.
Turn 2 -- Zara's scout from east. Unfortunately he does not start with Agri, so no research discount.
Turn 5 -- switch research to BW
Turn 12 Bud FIDL.
Turn 14 Hindu FIDL.
There are at least 2 religious leaders in the game.
Turn 36 BW in. Initial warrior is among a horde of lions (Note: there's possibly another lion in the southern dark area, so I moved warrior 1 south) next player need to decide whether to face the challenge. In Delhi, I adjusted the 3rd citizen to work on 1F2H tile so that Warrior 2 can be out at the time when capital hits size 4.
Land view -- Since Zara appeared from east in turn 2, so I scouted eastern 1st to see whether there are critical spots to get and then went counter clockwise to west. The land available for Zara is pretty limited and nothing interesting. We could have access to Stone and/or Marble in 2nd city!
We need a little more exploration to the Southern and Western area. If there's gold or gem nearby (pretty low as I see), then the 2nd city should go there, otherwise I prefer the FP/Copper/stone site -- 1S of the stone. Tech to Wheel and then masonry, we have decent chance to grab SH before 2000BC. Even not, the failed gold will greatly help the teching. There are some very important decisions to be determined and heavy micro needed for the next set.
Here's the Log
Spoiler :
Played as planned. Here's some highlights.
Turn 0 -- Settler SE to PH, Warrior to NE. 2 tundra hill and 1 ice tile in BFC, but we gain silver. No doubt it's a better capital site to help early expansion and teching.
Spoiler :
Turn 2 -- Zara's scout from east. Unfortunately he does not start with Agri, so no research discount.
Turn 5 -- switch research to BW
Turn 12 Bud FIDL.
Turn 14 Hindu FIDL.
There are at least 2 religious leaders in the game.
Turn 36 BW in. Initial warrior is among a horde of lions (Note: there's possibly another lion in the southern dark area, so I moved warrior 1 south) next player need to decide whether to face the challenge. In Delhi, I adjusted the 3rd citizen to work on 1F2H tile so that Warrior 2 can be out at the time when capital hits size 4.
Land view -- Since Zara appeared from east in turn 2, so I scouted eastern 1st to see whether there are critical spots to get and then went counter clockwise to west. The land available for Zara is pretty limited and nothing interesting. We could have access to Stone and/or Marble in 2nd city!
Spoiler :
We need a little more exploration to the Southern and Western area. If there's gold or gem nearby (pretty low as I see), then the 2nd city should go there, otherwise I prefer the FP/Copper/stone site -- 1S of the stone. Tech to Wheel and then masonry, we have decent chance to grab SH before 2000BC. Even not, the failed gold will greatly help the teching. There are some very important decisions to be determined and heavy micro needed for the next set.
Oh well, turns out I was right about the Tundra. Nice picking up silver however, more than makes up for it 
No food along the nice river east unfortunately. Actually, most things east are food poor... the wheat can't be irrigated either.
>>1S of Stone sounds good for second city, looks like we'll be wonderspamming a bit and running mass specs.
More in a bit.
EDIT: I'll spend a good amount of time making a test game, in case anyone is wondering.
EDIT2: I can't finish it tonight, will have to be tomorrow.
No food along the nice river east unfortunately. Actually, most things east are food poor... the wheat can't be irrigated either.
>>1S of Stone sounds good for second city, looks like we'll be wonderspamming a bit and running mass specs.
More in a bit.
EDIT: I'll spend a good amount of time making a test game, in case anyone is wondering.
EDIT2: I can't finish it tonight, will have to be tomorrow.
Zara Yaqob
NoWarProbs: 0/10/50/90/100
MaxWarRang: 200
MaxNearbyPowerRatio: 100%
MaxDistantPowerRatio: 50%
UnitProb: 30
Required Attitude for bribing: Cautious
Maximum Attitude for DoWing them: Pleased
Religion: +8
Share War: +4
Share Civic: +5 (Theocracy)
Open Borders: Cautious
Trade Techs: Annoyed, 30% must know
WFYABTA: 10 (Emperor bonus?) /// Need to check
Trade resource: Annoyed (Luxury/Health); Cautious (Strategic)
Trade maps: Cautious
Stop Trading with us: Pleased
Stop Trading with them: Cautious
Convert Religion: Friendly
Convert Civic: Cautious
Vassal: Pleased
Def. Pact: Friendly
Peaceweight: 6, +2 base, +1 warmonger respect
Builds wonders: 20
NoWarProbs: 0/10/50/90/100
MaxWarRang: 200
MaxNearbyPowerRatio: 100%
MaxDistantPowerRatio: 50%
UnitProb: 30
Required Attitude for bribing: Cautious
Maximum Attitude for DoWing them: Pleased
Religion: +8
Share War: +4
Share Civic: +5 (Theocracy)
Open Borders: Cautious
Trade Techs: Annoyed, 30% must know
WFYABTA: 10 (Emperor bonus?) /// Need to check
Trade resource: Annoyed (Luxury/Health); Cautious (Strategic)
Trade maps: Cautious
Stop Trading with us: Pleased
Stop Trading with them: Cautious
Convert Religion: Friendly
Convert Civic: Cautious
Vassal: Pleased
Def. Pact: Friendly
Peaceweight: 6, +2 base, +1 warmonger respect
Builds wonders: 20
Yes, we definitely need some test runs for various strategy. At least for now, I am thinking about do we want settler out or 2nd worker now.
Good start, we know the lay of the land.
Are we alone on a small island with Zara?
Looks like a good set of "culture" resources (stone+marble+copper) easily available.
Won't put time into a test-game since kossin is allready going there, but a few thoughts.
Important question: Being a rookie SGOTM player, I went and downloaded the save from the page. Then I got to thinking (which probably should've been the other way around). Once a teammember gets the save that's probably registered somewhere, right?.... (I'm next up on kossin's roster, so hopefully no harm done) Sorry
@Duckweed:
Why do we want SH?
As for 2nd city. If it's built south of stone, couldn't it also be SE of stone (lend corn from capital for early growth while capitol builds oracle f.eks... better production). You'd then fit in a "better" culture site to get 4FP+Cow+Marble+Stone (1N2W of stone), you'd also get 3 riverside grassland there. And you leave room for 3 clams for Gpp up north. I realize this does not block off the west for zara (with city 2)
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
Nice exploration 
The land looks full of possibilities and a tad challenging.
Same question about Stonehenge. If there's only Zara on the island, we won't settle 10 cities (western part looks limited).
I also question the envisionned 1S of stone location (is stone in the 1st ring useful for anything other than Stonehenge ?). I'd have thought about 2S, actually :
- we could share the corn from Delhi for a quick growth (working 3 mines & 1 corn is ok for Delhi if it is size 4 and producing settlers/workers/wonders);
- we'd have copper in the 1st ring ;
- the second ring would go down to the 3 tiles lake (2 farmable grassland), an area that would not be easily exploitable if we settle the Pig, Fish, Cow site ;
- no distance upkeep for the city (iirc distance upkeep is 1 above 4,5 tiles and 2 above 8 tiles, diagonals counting for 1,5 tile).
But maybe we need a better knowledge of what's west to discuss city locations.
I'm not fond of settling an average 2nd city but, if we don't block Zara, he's likely to settle the river east of Delhi and up north to the wheat. Is it okay with us ? 2W of the cow is a nice cottage site that "could" reveal horses or iron.
--> I think the incoming warrior should go scout around Aksum. It would let us know how much space Zara has to expand compared to us. Besides, floodplains + gold is an often seen combo : if Aksum has gold, we should at least consider taking it early.
Settler or Worker next ?
The worker is probably better for RExing. I haven't made calculations but in the epic speed games I've run, fast workers + chopping feels overpowered. Having 2 workers at hand is also comfortable to halve improvement times for new cities.
Sidenote :
Maybe we're not isolated with Zara : there's an island to the north. There are plenty of good coastal sites, though, so sending a workboat there shouldn't be a problem.
This starts to make a fair share of contradicting points and my mind is not clear enough to propose any move. I would probably tech the Wheel next.
The land looks full of possibilities and a tad challenging.
Same question about Stonehenge. If there's only Zara on the island, we won't settle 10 cities (western part looks limited).
I also question the envisionned 1S of stone location (is stone in the 1st ring useful for anything other than Stonehenge ?). I'd have thought about 2S, actually :
- we could share the corn from Delhi for a quick growth (working 3 mines & 1 corn is ok for Delhi if it is size 4 and producing settlers/workers/wonders);
- we'd have copper in the 1st ring ;
- the second ring would go down to the 3 tiles lake (2 farmable grassland), an area that would not be easily exploitable if we settle the Pig, Fish, Cow site ;
- no distance upkeep for the city (iirc distance upkeep is 1 above 4,5 tiles and 2 above 8 tiles, diagonals counting for 1,5 tile).
But maybe we need a better knowledge of what's west to discuss city locations.
I'm not fond of settling an average 2nd city but, if we don't block Zara, he's likely to settle the river east of Delhi and up north to the wheat. Is it okay with us ? 2W of the cow is a nice cottage site that "could" reveal horses or iron.
--> I think the incoming warrior should go scout around Aksum. It would let us know how much space Zara has to expand compared to us. Besides, floodplains + gold is an often seen combo : if Aksum has gold, we should at least consider taking it early.
Settler or Worker next ?
The worker is probably better for RExing. I haven't made calculations but in the epic speed games I've run, fast workers + chopping feels overpowered. Having 2 workers at hand is also comfortable to halve improvement times for new cities.
Sidenote :
Maybe we're not isolated with Zara : there's an island to the north. There are plenty of good coastal sites, though, so sending a workboat there shouldn't be a problem.
This starts to make a fair share of contradicting points and my mind is not clear enough to propose any move. I would probably tech the Wheel next.
@BiC (hope BiC works.. it's easier to type )
2S might actually be better. Hooking up stone after Col is in isn't a problem either (if we're going for mids rather than SH)
The real question right now is : What decisions need to be made for the next turnset.
As I see it:
We need to finish up exploring a bit more South and West. BiC suggests exploring east as well... for "military" purposes... I'm not sure I want a military buildup early (I'd rather expand, and you never know if you need to start 2 wars vs AI to free up the fur later). Getting decent fogbusting up may be better right now?
With a bit more exploring it'd be easier to decide on actual city placement. I don't mind the idea of a more "crap" site as city #2 to get started there on workers/settlers or military.. while cap builds wonders. Hopefully there's also a 3rd "culture site" a bit west along the river from where our warrior is "cornered" by lions.
As I understand it, most of you want Oracle->Col (I do too). What target date are we aiming for? (2000BC is probably 100% safe, and very doable if we want it... at the cost of expansion (only 1 settler), and limiting worker techs). If we want 2 settlers (more is probably dangerous for tech-rate to writing) we're talking ~1750BC which is probably still ok, right? Mids get pushed off a bit in this case, and could be lost.
Do we want Pyramids (favors city 2 with some access to stone .. 2S of stone still works). I want mids if possible. We'll know this turnset (probably) wether we can go for it (from GW date)...
From kossin's tests earlier it would seem the GW date indicate wether mids go early (1600BC isn't comfortable for us, maybe?).
Do we want SH (I'm not sure I understand why).
Oracle+Mids works well both for cultural and UN. Should be in the same city to keep genepool clean elsewhere (in case we want culture)?
Worker or settler next:
What about 2 settlers and start worker in "crap" site (2S of stone)? I don't think we need to chop out oracle, and saving forests for Mids, Parth, Mom, Sist, Taj (if we're going culture) seems not so bad?
If we're going "building-culture" we won't need THAT many workers overall since cities will be realtively small and whipping out infra a lot. Even without more scouting, getting 9 "good enough" cities up doesn't seem unfeasible.
3rd city(at least) should proably be coastal so we can start sending a WB around (so we'd need fishing at some point soon too...)?
Teching:
1. Poly(Or med, but we'd still need poly for culture) -> Priest beeline ("safe" col) -> Writing. (Mas/TW)
2.TW -> Poly (could be med) -> Priest -> Writing -> Mas
3. TW -> Pot -> Med -> Priest -> Writing -> Mas
Dealying Mas for when we know we can get mids (if we're not going SH). Pottery would be nice, but cap is busy building wonders. Not sure exactly how many turns are lost by adding it in.
Even without TW worker(s) can prechop.
)2S might actually be better. Hooking up stone after Col is in isn't a problem either (if we're going for mids rather than SH)
The real question right now is : What decisions need to be made for the next turnset.
As I see it:
We need to finish up exploring a bit more South and West. BiC suggests exploring east as well... for "military" purposes... I'm not sure I want a military buildup early (I'd rather expand, and you never know if you need to start 2 wars vs AI to free up the fur later). Getting decent fogbusting up may be better right now?
With a bit more exploring it'd be easier to decide on actual city placement. I don't mind the idea of a more "crap" site as city #2 to get started there on workers/settlers or military.. while cap builds wonders. Hopefully there's also a 3rd "culture site" a bit west along the river from where our warrior is "cornered" by lions.
As I understand it, most of you want Oracle->Col (I do too). What target date are we aiming for? (2000BC is probably 100% safe, and very doable if we want it... at the cost of expansion (only 1 settler), and limiting worker techs). If we want 2 settlers (more is probably dangerous for tech-rate to writing) we're talking ~1750BC which is probably still ok, right? Mids get pushed off a bit in this case, and could be lost.
Do we want Pyramids (favors city 2 with some access to stone .. 2S of stone still works). I want mids if possible. We'll know this turnset (probably) wether we can go for it (from GW date)...
From kossin's tests earlier it would seem the GW date indicate wether mids go early (1600BC isn't comfortable for us, maybe?).
Do we want SH (I'm not sure I understand why).
Oracle+Mids works well both for cultural and UN. Should be in the same city to keep genepool clean elsewhere (in case we want culture)?
Worker or settler next:
What about 2 settlers and start worker in "crap" site (2S of stone)? I don't think we need to chop out oracle, and saving forests for Mids, Parth, Mom, Sist, Taj (if we're going culture) seems not so bad?
If we're going "building-culture" we won't need THAT many workers overall since cities will be realtively small and whipping out infra a lot. Even without more scouting, getting 9 "good enough" cities up doesn't seem unfeasible.
3rd city(at least) should proably be coastal so we can start sending a WB around (so we'd need fishing at some point soon too...)?
Teching:
1. Poly(Or med, but we'd still need poly for culture) -> Priest beeline ("safe" col) -> Writing. (Mas/TW)
2.TW -> Poly (could be med) -> Priest -> Writing -> Mas
3. TW -> Pot -> Med -> Priest -> Writing -> Mas
Dealying Mas for when we know we can get mids (if we're not going SH). Pottery would be nice, but cap is busy building wonders. Not sure exactly how many turns are lost by adding it in.
Even without TW worker(s) can prechop.
SH:
It's pretty good for a non creative leader, especially we can get the bonus which make it 90H, very cheap. Early access to Stone opens the wonder build so that we can get those failed cash from SH and TGW to help the research (small trick -- partial build a warrior in the stone city, whip it and let the overflow go to a stone wonder. 1pop ~ 90g, isn't it glorious
) which is the bottleneck for the race to Oracle. Moreover, SH is the biggest culture wonder in case we see a better chance for culture win.
1S of the Stone
Again, it's for connecting the stone as soon as possible. The reason why I don't consider sharing the Corn since capital itself needs both corns for fast growth so that it can do efficient whipping for pumping workers/settlers and the overflow to wonders. 1S of the stone also has access the 1 FP in the 1st ring and another FP in the 2nd ring, so food is not a problem for the city, it's a pretty good site.
It's pretty good for a non creative leader, especially we can get the bonus which make it 90H, very cheap. Early access to Stone opens the wonder build so that we can get those failed cash from SH and TGW to help the research (small trick -- partial build a warrior in the stone city, whip it and let the overflow go to a stone wonder. 1pop ~ 90g, isn't it glorious
) which is the bottleneck for the race to Oracle. Moreover, SH is the biggest culture wonder in case we see a better chance for culture win.1S of the Stone
Again, it's for connecting the stone as soon as possible. The reason why I don't consider sharing the Corn since capital itself needs both corns for fast growth so that it can do efficient whipping for pumping workers/settlers and the overflow to wonders. 1S of the stone also has access the 1 FP in the 1st ring and another FP in the 2nd ring, so food is not a problem for the city, it's a pretty good site.
Important question: Being a rookie SGOTM player, I went and downloaded the save from the page. Then I got to thinking (which probably should've been the other way around). Once a teammember gets the save that's probably registered somewhere, right?.... (I'm next up on kossin's roster, so hopefully no harm done) Sorry
I've looked everywhere but can't see any rule preventing the download of your actual team save.
However, you may not actually do anything with the save other than examine it. Everything you do must be saved and re-submitted. No reloads either, whatsoever (unless the game crashes > use the last auto-save and make sure the autosave is set at 1 turn).
@kossin:
I couldn't find anything stating you couldn't get the save either. I'm obviously not doing anything with it (as in moving units or ending turns), except looking around for city placement etc. So I guess it's safe. I could easily just reupload it though.
@kossin + duckweed:
Sorry for being dense about SH. When it comes to culture, I'm assuming you label it good for it's own culture mostly (multiplying over time) and not really for the monuments. (culture from monuments shouldn't be that big a deal... when you're in full culturebuild at the end anyways? .. and up to that point they really don't contribute much to the Legendary total?)
Suppose we actually have to research astronomy to get to fur, and that this would happen prior to "all-in" culturebuilding. Culture from SH and monuments are probably 0 at that point, and thus not contributing in the final culturepush.
I actually think if you're going culture, getting a headstart on monasteries/temples will give more culture and be generally more useful. Both oracle and pyramids are safer culturebuilders by temselves than SH (since we don't know wether we need astronomy), and Oracle gives the same culture as SH anyways.
Going for culture imo means (for World Wonders): prioritize oracle and pyramids early (if we're going with buildings-culture as opposed to pure all-out cottage culture...). Add Parthenon, MoM, Sistine and Taj when they become available (with Taj as late as possible).
At the same time we do not want a ton of non-GA GP. 1-2GS + a ton of GA.. 1 random GP is ok for a Golden Age, but other that nothing. Contaminating the pool in city 2 with priests means it probably won't contribute an artist later.
I'm all for getting money from SH and/or GW, but I really don't understand why we'd want to prioritize getting SH for it's culture contribution.
But then again.. getting SH in addition to Oracle and Pyramids probably wouldn't hurt
I couldn't find anything stating you couldn't get the save either. I'm obviously not doing anything with it (as in moving units or ending turns), except looking around for city placement etc. So I guess it's safe. I could easily just reupload it though.
@kossin + duckweed:
Sorry for being dense about SH. When it comes to culture, I'm assuming you label it good for it's own culture mostly (multiplying over time) and not really for the monuments. (culture from monuments shouldn't be that big a deal... when you're in full culturebuild at the end anyways? .. and up to that point they really don't contribute much to the Legendary total?)
Suppose we actually have to research astronomy to get to fur, and that this would happen prior to "all-in" culturebuilding. Culture from SH and monuments are probably 0 at that point, and thus not contributing in the final culturepush.
I actually think if you're going culture, getting a headstart on monasteries/temples will give more culture and be generally more useful. Both oracle and pyramids are safer culturebuilders by temselves than SH (since we don't know wether we need astronomy), and Oracle gives the same culture as SH anyways.
Going for culture imo means (for World Wonders): prioritize oracle and pyramids early (if we're going with buildings-culture as opposed to pure all-out cottage culture...). Add Parthenon, MoM, Sistine and Taj when they become available (with Taj as late as possible).
At the same time we do not want a ton of non-GA GP. 1-2GS + a ton of GA.. 1 random GP is ok for a Golden Age, but other that nothing. Contaminating the pool in city 2 with priests means it probably won't contribute an artist later.
I'm all for getting money from SH and/or GW, but I really don't understand why we'd want to prioritize getting SH for it's culture contribution.
But then again.. getting SH in addition to Oracle and Pyramids probably wouldn't hurt
Wonders still provide culture after obsoleting, although the monuments would be gone.
Having SH saves us having to get border pops via missionaries/artists/monuments and since Zara is a pain in the backside when it comes to culture pressure, having more culture can't hurt.
Theatres are also a good building to get early for culture.
We're probably looking at 3 culture cities as such:
1. Wonderspam
2. Artists (3 clams?)
3. Commerce -> cottages?
This is where testing will give a better idea I think. The failure gold would definitely allow REXing so we should definitely put a few hammers in TGW.
~~~
Working on the test game now.
Having SH saves us having to get border pops via missionaries/artists/monuments and since Zara is a pain in the backside when it comes to culture pressure, having more culture can't hurt.
Theatres are also a good building to get early for culture.
We're probably looking at 3 culture cities as such:
1. Wonderspam
2. Artists (3 clams?)
3. Commerce -> cottages?
This is where testing will give a better idea I think. The failure gold would definitely allow REXing so we should definitely put a few hammers in TGW.
~~~
Working on the test game now.
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