AlphaShard
Emperor
I still think we can tech AH in time for when were about to leave the Island.
Turn Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Lord Parkin
- Start date
caveman1917
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2009
- Messages
- 110
Yes but we'll need to see around what point in our tech-line that occurs, so we can establish our 'set' of techs until the deadline. Then we can more easily consider the optimal order of researching them.
azzaman333
meh
We can tech a lot of things in that time. Doesn't mean it's a good idea.
AH is not a required tech, is it? Meaning you can go all the way up the tech tree without ever getting it.
The early game is all about ruthless efficiency. Rule 1: Never research or build anything you don't need. Rule 2: Make exceptions to rule 1 as circumstances warrant. In the case of AH, you make an exception if you have pasture resources, don't have copper, or have a neighbor with axes. Right now the only one that might trigger an exception that would compel us to research AH would be if we don't have copper.
The early game is all about ruthless efficiency. Rule 1: Never research or build anything you don't need. Rule 2: Make exceptions to rule 1 as circumstances warrant. In the case of AH, you make an exception if you have pasture resources, don't have copper, or have a neighbor with axes. Right now the only one that might trigger an exception that would compel us to research AH would be if we don't have copper.
champinoman
Warlord
I just redid the test to directly compare the 2 scenarios and got a result slightly different than I remember.
The Library is actually completed 3 turns earlier when skipping AH instead of the 2 I mentioned earlier.
In terms of beakers generated you can see in the save files below that by teching AH we generate a few extra beakers by turn 42 but its only a very few. However, skipping AH (although generating less beakers) is 140 beakers further into researching Mathematics (placeholder).
The big question or not is whether or not we have Copper. We'll find out very shortly.
In both examples the road to the South-West Mine can be completed in time for the pop5 expansion. However is probably not needed asap because the Warrior can head to the capital once the Settler is acting as its own spawn bust before it settles the 2nd city.
On a side note. It is extremely important in a few turns that when we build on the 2nd fish that we work both fish tiles for that 1 turn instead of the default 1 fish 1 gold. This we pop us to pop 3 1 turn quicker and subsequently get us to pop4 on the exact turn we start our settler. If we forget this then we have to waste a turn before building the settler to get to pop4.
The Library is actually completed 3 turns earlier when skipping AH instead of the 2 I mentioned earlier.
In terms of beakers generated you can see in the save files below that by teching AH we generate a few extra beakers by turn 42 but its only a very few. However, skipping AH (although generating less beakers) is 140 beakers further into researching Mathematics (placeholder).
The big question or not is whether or not we have Copper. We'll find out very shortly.
In both examples the road to the South-West Mine can be completed in time for the pop5 expansion. However is probably not needed asap because the Warrior can head to the capital once the Settler is acting as its own spawn bust before it settles the 2nd city.
On a side note. It is extremely important in a few turns that when we build on the 2nd fish that we work both fish tiles for that 1 turn instead of the default 1 fish 1 gold. This we pop us to pop 3 1 turn quicker and subsequently get us to pop4 on the exact turn we start our settler. If we forget this then we have to waste a turn before building the settler to get to pop4.
azzaman333
meh
My gut feelings still says AH > Writing > Sailing > Mysticism > Polytheism/Meditation > Priesthood > Monarchy is our best path at this time.
AlphaShard
Emperor
New turn!
We've also had some changes in Demographics.
Not much to decide on until 3040.
Spoiler :
We've also had some changes in Demographics.
Not much to decide on until 3040.
champinoman
Warlord
Essentially for every prereq you have for a tech (only the ones linked by arrows) you get an additional 20% beakers. So the discussion is regarding when we should tech writing. We will have Pottery already but getting AH adds an additional pre-req meaning that we get bonus beakers. To take it further, if we had Priesthood as well there would be another bonus 20%.
There is also a bonus attached to how many other known civs in the game have the tech. But thats something for us to worry about later as we have not met anyone yet.
EDIT: And the reason you overlooked it is because it never says anything anywhere about it unless you take note of tech progress in 2 consecutive turns. I only noticed it after many people mentioning it in the BOTMs
AlphaShard
Emperor
Do Beakers overflow into the next Tech? I was seeing that we have more then enough beakers, so will the extra beakers go to the next Tech?
I've been thinking do you wonder if it's possible that the Map Maker may have created more Barb cities out there on the map? I mean if he did one just to build the GL in it what else could be waiting in store for us?
I've been thinking do you wonder if it's possible that the Map Maker may have created more Barb cities out there on the map? I mean if he did one just to build the GL in it what else could be waiting in store for us?
Trystero
Deity
No, extra beakers do not carry over to the next tech. The easiest way to demonstrate this is using a GP to bulb a tech you've already started researching. whether 1 or 10 turns from finishing the tech, the next tech starts at zero beakers.
Edit: Sorry - I was wrong about overflow. See here.
Re: the AH debate. Don't we have until after Pottery to decide whether to pursue AH before Writing? That might give more time for debate and give us more info on the map if we can get an exploring WB out.
AlphaShard
Emperor
If that is the case maybe it would be ok to lower the slider and earn some gold then?
Trystero
Deity
Hmm... Perhaps. That seems sensible to me, but I'm not the best person ask about micro. I know there are advantages to binary research (running either 0 or 100% on the slider), but I'm not certain under what conditions that approach is optimal.
Trystero
Deity
OK - I did some researching in the archive. I might be wrong about beaker overflow. It might apply to the next tech by reducing the cost rather than showing up as beakers already applied. I will have to look into this some more.
Edit: Yes, I was definitely wrong. AlphaShard: I think this answers your question. Apparently, I need to read it, as well.
Edit: Yes, I was definitely wrong. AlphaShard: I think this answers your question. Apparently, I need to read it, as well.
Lord Parkin
aka emperor
Huh? Overflow exists in Civ4. 
Don't lower the science slider, our beakers will overflow to the next tech. Great Person bulbs are a special case, not the norm.
That's a good link, thanks Trystero.
Although I think the application of bonuses on overflow from one tech to the next has been changed since that article was written.
Don't lower the science slider, our beakers will overflow to the next tech. Great Person bulbs are a special case, not the norm.
That's a good link, thanks Trystero.
Although I think the application of bonuses on overflow from one tech to the next has been changed since that article was written.
AlphaShard
Emperor
I just thought I read something about the latest patch removing overflow, I guess they meant in regards to the GP Bulbing.
Lord Parkin
aka emperor
It removed the gold you got from a large hammer overflow on anything apart from wonders. Maybe that's what you were thinking of. The reasoning was that it could be abused particularly by Protective leaders with Stone (e.g. whipping/chopping a Wall could create several hundred bonus gold instantly).
I'm sure Firaxis would never consider removing any of the other overflow things which they put in place originally though. The idea of that was to create less need for micromanagement (e.g. adjusting the slider every other turn). What would be the point in removing that and forcing more micromanagement?
I'm sure Firaxis would never consider removing any of the other overflow things which they put in place originally though. The idea of that was to create less need for micromanagement (e.g. adjusting the slider every other turn). What would be the point in removing that and forcing more micromanagement?
AlphaShard
Emperor
It wasn't the Hammers/Gold, it was Beakers there was a thread on this in the CiV General Discussion area.
Lord Parkin
aka emperor
It might have been the removal of the (e.g.) 1.6x bonus if you finish Writing and then start a tech with no prereqs on the next turn. But in general, beaker overflow definitely exists. Just start a game and see. 
dima42
Prince
I'm still strongly in the no-AH camp. How are we possibly going to need it before we can trade for it with Alphabet?
No AH --> sooner techs --> sooner Alphabet -->trading for AH.
The only possibility AH might be worthwhile is if there is a chance we will not be able to trade for AH by when we need it. This seems borderline impossible.
No AH --> sooner techs --> sooner Alphabet -->trading for AH.
The only possibility AH might be worthwhile is if there is a chance we will not be able to trade for AH by when we need it. This seems borderline impossible.
