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Old May 10, 2010, 12:26 PM   #1
robyextreme
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Gold, imbalanced?

So we all know that precious square with the shiny metal is great. I wouldn't actually consider it imbalanced if it didn't spawn in the first cities BFC.

The wildest thing about it, is how the game pays no attention to the terrain around the gold.. it still gives you the same quality squares with or without gold. But come on guys, it's like playing a level below when you work the tile.

Although one counter-solution I thought the game dev's might have is that even though it gives you a big boost with ancient techs, you actually don't need all of them. (Fishing or usually one of Agriculture/Animal husb..etc and by the time your in classical age the gold isn't substantial since you have more gold to go around anyway.

I don't know, what do you guys think?
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Old May 10, 2010, 12:42 PM   #2
roguepro92
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having a gold in your BFC and food to work it at the same time is pretty OP to start off with since you almost fly thru the techs but at higher lvl it doesn't help that greatly since the AIs also get nice boosts too, prince or under if you have gold in your BFC and decent ground around you should win guaranteedly.
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Old May 10, 2010, 01:05 PM   #3
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nodoby's stopping you from worldbuildering it out . . .or going up a difficulty level.

Seriously though, other AIs get a gold bonus as well. My last emperor game I played as Shaka and my neighbor was France. Paris started with 2 clams, 2 gold, 3 floodplains and several river grassland with 1 GH.

Didn't help them any when I showed up with 15 horse archers in 500BC
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Old May 10, 2010, 01:09 PM   #4
robyextreme
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nodoby's stopping you from worldbuildering it out . . .or going up a difficulty level.
Well obviously not, but that's not the point really. It's about game mechanics. Would really make more sense if other squares around it were a little weaker though.
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Old May 10, 2010, 01:18 PM   #5
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I'm not entirely sure that Gold trumps Gems for a goody in the BFC. "Free money, with food, and if you settle today, we'll even clear the jungle for you at no extra cost."

That said, Regenerate Map is only two clicks away....

Edit: it might be worth checking the other starts on the map. The start balancer is supposed to be making sure that all of the starts are comparable. I'm not sure that it scores the happy rocks correctly, of course. But if the scaling of the strength of the starts is right, you're getting a faster start, but not necessarily an imbalanced one.

Beyond the imbalance that the AI may not understand how to exploit an accelerated start.
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Old May 10, 2010, 01:27 PM   #6
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I think gems are more OP. I was playing an emp game and ran into manasa. Scouted out his land and he started in his capital with 2 rice and 4 gems not jungled.
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Old May 10, 2010, 09:32 PM   #7
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Gems > Gold. I sometimes find myself not working the gold because I want food. I never find myself not working gems.
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Old May 10, 2010, 10:03 PM   #8
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It's all relative to the difficulty level. Also, one can't lose the fact that several AIs may be working gold, silver and gems and maybe multiple ones. Every played against lame techer Toku when he has precious metals - not pretty.

On lower levels it can certainly be OP, but once you hit say Emperor it really starts to balance out.
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Old May 11, 2010, 02:45 AM   #9
fed1943
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Gold +1C than gems and usually better hammers worse food, so it depends on
the other tiles in the city's radius.
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Old May 11, 2010, 02:55 AM   #10
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Important as the starting BFC is, many is the time I thought I had an unbeatable start only to discover that the surrounding terrain was abysmal, or that the AIs had something even better.
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Old May 11, 2010, 03:05 AM   #11
andersw
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A lot of things in CIV are random and random make games unbalanced.

At my level you get an awesome boost in early tech when it matters most.
Once I get currency it's still good but not that gamebreaking, thing is you'll get there a lot faster.

In the non computerworld of gaming people who despised random played Diplomacy (or chess).

AI fin with gold/gems tend to run away pretty fast in techs, just like those who start with fish/clam are slow early on.
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Old May 11, 2010, 08:12 AM   #12
TheMeInTeam
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If you have any resource in the BFC, even an utter crap joke plains cow, there is no more important factor in the RNG start than how each civ is positioned relative to other civs.

A craptastic plains cow start where everyone gets ~14% land without much variance is way easier than a gem or gold start where one AI that is not near you gets 30% of the land without war, and takes 1-2 civs as a vassal peacefully.

Spawn imbalance in terms of # land tiles and quality is minimal at best in civ IV, and the capitol is just a tiny piece. Granted, it is the only piece you can control, but if I could I would trade all chances of gold or gems away to make sure the civs had balanced starts and I would do it in a heartbeat.

The disparity between the extremes of "2x riverside corn and 3x gem" vs "one plains cow or rice tile in your entire fat cross" is a pretty damned offensive joke though. At least THAT could have been normalized somewhat, since even a 3rd party utility program managed that outcome well enough (mapfinder).
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Old May 11, 2010, 09:30 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam View Post
If you have any resource in the BFC, even an utter crap joke plains cow, there is no more important factor in the RNG start than how each civ is positioned relative to other civs.

A craptastic plains cow start where everyone gets ~14% land without much variance is way easier than a gem or gold start where one AI that is not near you gets 30% of the land without war, and takes 1-2 civs as a vassal peacefully.

Spawn imbalance in terms of # land tiles and quality is minimal at best in civ IV, and the capitol is just a tiny piece. Granted, it is the only piece you can control, but if I could I would trade all chances of gold or gems away to make sure the civs had balanced starts and I would do it in a heartbeat.

The disparity between the extremes of "2x riverside corn and 3x gem" vs "one plains cow or rice tile in your entire fat cross" is a pretty damned offensive joke though. At least THAT could have been normalized somewhat, since even a 3rd party utility program managed that outcome well enough (mapfinder).
The quality of your land at the start has a direct correlation to the distance of enemy AIs. This is scripted and supposed to be fair. You wouldnt want all capitals to be equidistant with the same proportion of starting land available. Look at how close London is to Paris and Amsterdam compared to lets say Moscow to Berlin.

I can almost look at a starting BFC and tell how far away my closest neighbor is.

If you dont feel like putting up with the hassle of one map, just re-roll.
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Old May 11, 2010, 09:48 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam View Post
The disparity between the extremes of "2x riverside corn and 3x gem" vs "one plains cow or rice tile in your entire fat cross" is a pretty damned offensive joke though. At least THAT could have been normalized somewhat, since even a 3rd party utility program managed that outcome well enough (mapfinder).
I love it when this happens. And the best part is that it's always me getting those cows, and between me and everyone else is a small peninsula, covered in riverless, floodplainless desert. It's never enough that I've gotta fight mad AI bonuses, I've gotta fight an uphill battle on terrain too.

The best starts are single plains cow combined with hills-wine.
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Old May 11, 2010, 10:13 AM   #15
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How far away is my closest neighbor?
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Old May 11, 2010, 12:22 PM   #16
NihilZero
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I'm hoping you're going to tell us...
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Old May 11, 2010, 12:24 PM   #17
budweiser
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I'm hoping you're going to tell us...
Not until I get some guesses.
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Old May 11, 2010, 02:03 PM   #18
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There are 7 tiles between your capital and the next capital, the tiles on which the cities are located not being counted.

Now where's my cookie for guessing correctly?
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Old May 11, 2010, 02:15 PM   #19
budweiser
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There are 7 tiles between your capital and the next capital, the tiles on which the cities are located not being counted.

Now where's my cookie for guessing correctly?
More than 7, but not much more. The resources and the trees are a dead give away that someone is close.

In this game it turns out more than one AI is close.

EDIT: Because I chose Sumeria, can anyone guess who the opponents are?
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Old May 11, 2010, 02:26 PM   #20
CivilizedTiger
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Well, I've noticed that the game likes to include people with similar traits, so:

Suryavarman
Katy
Pericles

Now let's get back on topic :P
I've actually gotten a very nice game with Lincoln in monarch, but I had gold in the BFC and I've found a 3 gems lots of rivers only grassland commerce city spot and I've found both iron and copper and also ivory and horses. And the thing is, I want to know if I should count it as a monarch win when I do win it or if I should do the same for it as for my Willem wins on monarch: consider them prince wins because of circumstances making the game easier
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