SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

kossin · May 11, 2010

I can take it unless someone else with a short round wants it (Bugg123?).

I'll give a couple hours for answer(s) and play if no-one speaks up.

Just a warning: I tend to have bad luck with Great Persons

EDIT: Playing now, 20h50 GMT-5

kossin · May 11, 2010

No

: we got a scientist!

Everything went as planned per BIC's post plus my worker moves, but the WII warrior is dancing with a barb archer.

OB felt strange a bit given that we don't have Sailing and both Justinian and Zara are benefiting from us.

Noteworthy things:
-didn't see Justinian's wb, looks like he went up rather than east. He hasn't met anyone else however (still 4 :espionage:

/turn on us)
-Zara grew from size 4 to 5 in 3 turns! (he's now focusing 4 :espionage:

/turn on us)
-Zara went for IW... pretty sure he doesn't have Masonry as I couldn't see walls in Aksum
-The Great Wall built in 1925BC, SH still available
-Zara settled east
-new barbarian warrior east of Delhi
-we got Descartes!! I love this guy!!!! I have left him untouched for the next person...
-all workers are untouched for this turn similarly
-Justinian has copper, Zara has no special resources. Both will trade clams+cows
-WII has a barb Archer next to him (no fortify in forest) [4v3]
-West warrior has a barb warrior next to him (25% fortify in forest) [3.5v2]

Spoiler for log:

Spoiler :

And now pictures.

Spoiler :

Next up was Duckweed unless we take too much time making our minds again and Udey1 becomes available.

kossin · May 11, 2010

And here's the test game.

I gave TGW to someone and razed-rebuilt Timbuktu to cancel the SH build.

The west warrior doesn't have his fortification however... you can add a hill for 1 turn if you want to generate the same effect.

I think it's pretty straight forward from here, up until 1100BC there aren't that many options open to us.

Bugg123 · May 12, 2010

Excellent!

Nothing much changes here, I think? Do we need more Pyramids and GLH testing, or are we happy with 1375BC and ~1150BC?

1375BC means 17turns, 1150BC is 9 turns after that. Do we just do 15 turns now, or do we play for Pyramids next set? TGW went relatively early, but not that early, so hopefully our dates are still good.

I think we're probably good to go here, so I really don't mind a plan for next set right away.

BornInCantaloup · May 12, 2010

Thank you, Kossin, the situation looks good.

Glad we have a scientist ! I'm starting to think Duckweed is one of Eldine's relatives !

kossin · May 12, 2010

As I said, there aren't that many things we need to decide... there are things to be done in a certain deadline and that's about it.

In my last test, I lucked out and got religion spread in Vijay which allowed a natural 1100BC GLH completion without whipping (finishes with 0 overflow hammers!). Of course it'd be even better for a forest spread.

Things that need to be done

Finish the farm[7] in Vijay (leaves 1 worker turn, probably a chop) then Stone[12], Cows[6], Marble[9]. Marble can also be done later but it's a tight schedule and we'll lose a few worker turns moving.
Assign the Artist to the farm as it's done (or maybe even before? Not sure need to test). This will give more time to allow a religion spread and might give us some extra food for faster GLH. (as long as we have a border pop 1 turn before growth so that the cows are ready to be worked by 3rd citizen immediately this is the really crucial part, we want size 3 as Sailing is done with max hammer output until 1100BC = fast growth then max hammers)
Naturally Vijay starts a LH as soon as Sailing is done. That should be at pop3 where it will work the left fp, cows and horses (borrowed). Bombay borrows the right fp at that point. As Vijay's growth using the Marble yields the same amount of hammers (when #turns reaches half or less the time the growth period for fp vs marble) work all 3 hammer tiles. Pop 4 goes on stone (a grass hill mine would be better but we don't have worker turns for that)
One worker goes to finish the 2 pre-chops in Delhi while Paliputra gets 3 workers to pasture pigs+road as it is settled, allows a t105 wb whip at size 2. The road is important as Vijay will lose 1/turn at size 4 when working stone as forests get chopped. We could trade for a health resource also to save those worker turns though.
Once that is done, 2 workers need to join the one in Delhi to chop as Mathematics is done (5 forests in 2 turns)... we leave 2 workers in Delhi afterwards for cottages.
We need at least 2 workers to chop the forests in Vijay next.

Things that are subject to discussion

Queue out the Chariot in Delhi (leave 1 or 2 turn to complete? 1 turn gives 13 overflow gold which is 1 turn of research that should allow us to just complete Pottery if we get a second GS). Once the second GP spawns we switch to Slavery and whip him into Pyramids [we don't really need the Chariot earlier as barbs don't enter borders before 13xx... it's a bit less scouting but it's for faster Pyramids]
Move the West warrior SE to fogbust the Paliputra city site after the barb warrior is gone. I mention this as I just got a city spawn there 1 turn before the settler was ready... sure it leaves 2 tiles for barbs to spawn but if we're lucky it'll be Chariot food.
Next Bombay build... I'm assuming worker #5.
Keep dancing with WII warrior around Archer?
To whip or not to whip GLH... natural 1100BC GLH should be fast enough if we get lucky, otherwise I think we should seriously consider whipping depending on AI tech choices. (thank god Zara went for IW, that's one less contender).
What direction to explore with workboat. I'm assuming we want to find Justinian and then either send him east or explore the islands. Circling Justinian doesn't seem too pressing I think right now, it's probably better to meet everyone to get the big picture.

I can draft a plan until Pyramids completion if it's any use.

Duckweed · May 12, 2010

Got it. Good luck to get a GS 1st, I hope the next one is also a GS.

Before I can post the plan, there are some questions in need of your answers for the next set.
1. Location of 4th city? my vote -- 1SW of pig
2. Do you want the pig or cow in the 4th city to be improved in 2 turns immediately or faster mids? In my test, I can only send 1 worker to Delhi after stone connected. mids can be done in 1325 AD with 4 chops. my vote -- Improvement
3. Do you want to delay the chariot until 2nd GP to whip it and get overflow to mids? my vote -- yes.
4. What's the build in Delhi after chariot before stone connected? my vote -- lib.
5. What's the build in Bombay after settler? my vote -- worker.
6. Do you want to gamble the lockout of HE at 50% odd with a warrior? my vote -- yes.

kossin · May 12, 2010

Also hoping for another GS... it really makes it faster to Currency/CS.

1. Agree
2. Cows are second culture ring so definitely pigs+road. It still leaves time for workers to chop out Pyramids by 1375BC in my tests. I can clarify if you'd like

Improving the cows has to wait after border pop plus I'd whip the workboat on t105
3. Yes, the question however is do we change Delhi right now to a Library or in 1 turn... start Pyramids once Masonry is in.
4. Library also, but I'm not sure if we shouldn't start on Pyramids right away for faster completion(need to check). 1375BC Mids make it so we don't have unhappy citizens at all. As long as we get the Library done before growth to 8 it's fine I guess, that will allow to start a settler next. (Do we binary research while waiting on Library after Pottery or do we just wait for enough gold to research Currency?)
5. worker
6. Yes we can try for it, but he still needs 4xp which is quite a bit unfortunately. If we do it, go for the plains hill then bring him back to heal and allow another unit to spawn.

Bugg123 · May 12, 2010

My take:

1. SW of pigs is where I've been putting it in testing
2. Do you mean you want a borderpop + pasture with road on cows ASAP in Patli? Pasture + road pigs leaves enough time for the chops in Delhi, no?
3. Yes
4. Lib
5. Worker
6. Yes

Bugg123 · May 12, 2010

3. Yes, the question however is do we change Delhi right now to a Library or in 1 turn... start Pyramids once Masonry is in.

Will the 5 hammers (?) change anything on the Library completion date? If not I'm ok with a few extra :commerce:

from the chop for sure

Did actually get a barb warrior entering India in 1475BC today.. but he probably checked his calendar and figured out his mistake, as he left the following turn. I'm assuming it wasn't because he didn't like India.

Bugg123 · May 12, 2010

About whipping GLH.

I mean we really... REALLY do want it, right? Shaving a few turns off it reduces uncertainty, so I'm all for it, letting Vijay grow back producing a galley (I guess?).

I'm also for leaving the closest forests to the West "unchopped" untill the last moment to absolutely maximize the chances of a forest growing around there (it has happened a few times, and will allow 1175BC GLH with chops at size 4).

kossin · May 12, 2010

^^Yea I think it's really safer whipping tbh. I just had Mansa whip GLH in 1150BC in the test game -_-

4. Waiting on Pyramids doesn't change much on Library timing, the difference however is on the turn of completion we get move overflow because of Stone, so I'd actually start Pyramids right away once Masonry is done. (in 2 turns)

Bugg123 · May 12, 2010

^^ Ok with starting Pyramids when Masonry is in

dingding · May 12, 2010

Duckweed said:
Got it. Good luck to get a GS 1st, I hope the next one is also a GS.

Before I can post the plan, there are some questions in need of your answers for the next set.
1. Location of 4th city? my vote -- 1SW of pig
2. Do you want the pig or cow in the 4th city to be improved in 2 turns immediately or faster mids? In my test, I can only send 1 worker to Delhi after stone connected. mids can be done in 1325 AD with 4 chops. my vote -- Improvement
3. Do you want to delay the chariot until 2nd GP to whip it and get overflow to mids? my vote -- yes.
4. What's the build in Delhi after chariot before stone connected? my vote -- lib.
5. What's the build in Bombay after settler? my vote -- worker.
6. Do you want to gamble the lockout of HE at 50% odd with a warrior? my vote -- yes.

1. Agreed.
2. Improvement is better, but why not try to improve it in 3 turns (with 2 workers) and leave the rest 2 workers chopping in Delhi?
3. Yes, and no. I think of delaying the chariot and whipping it as soon as the Stone is connected, not until the 2nd GP.
4. If we run 4 Scientists in Delhi before the Stone is connected, I don't think the Chariot can be finished before that. So whip one pop into Chariot and overflow to Pyramid.
5. Worker is fine.
6. I think WII warrior should fortify in the northern forest hill unless he encounters an Axe or two Archers. Good luck for him if he makes the experience to 10, bad luck for him if he dies.

kossin · May 12, 2010

^^
2. If we send a second worker to Delhi at that time we'll get some downtime while we wait on Mathematics to be done.
3. Not sure what you mean since we're in Caste, can't whip until 2nd GP is out. We can't come out of Caste atm since we need it for border pop in Vijay. When does Slavery come in?
4. Chariot completes in 2 turns even with 4 scientists

dingding · May 12, 2010

About whipping the GLH:

I'm against whipping it. 1100BC is a decent date for GLH. Moreover, Vijay needs to complete 2 more WB and 1 Gallery afterwards.

If you need to whip something, we can finish the GLH with overflow from whipping a temple (if available).
Here is the thing: whipping a wonder is 30h/pop, whipping other unit is 45h/pop.
So whipping GLH costs 30h than whipping a normal unit. Great loss.

About the exploration:

I assume Justine went north for 8 turns and he hasn't met anyone?
So I think the first WB (from Pati) should go west to open Justine's traderoad. Then go north.
The second WB (from Vijiay) should go east directly.

Duckweed · May 12, 2010

I am going to run some tests and propose the detail plan tonight. Mids immediately is probably good.
I don't agree that Jus is isolated for sure, many leaders might put slider on EP. At least I know that SB will put 20% slider on EP and hence his research is always terrible.

dingding · May 12, 2010

kossin said:
^^
2. If we send a second worker to Delhi at that time we'll get some downtime while we wait on Mathematics to be done.
3. Not sure what you mean since we're in Caste, can't whip until 2nd GP is out. We can't come out of Caste atm since we need it for border pop in Vijay. When does Slavery come in?
4. Chariot completes in 2 turns even with 4 scientists

2. If the 3th settler is to be chopped, Maths can be finished later than Pati so 3 workers in Pati to improve the Pig is OK.

3 & 4. So we leave the chariot, just whip it right before the Pyramid.

I'm trying a test game now.

kossin · May 12, 2010

@dingding
Actually whipping wonders is even worse, the penalty is 100% so each pop is effectively worth 22 :hammers:

.

I also prefer not whipping GLH but it's taking a risk. Vijay at size 4 is much more useful than at size 2 but I prefer Vijay size 2 + GLH than just Vijay size 4 and 250 gold.

We don't have the worker turns to add another chop in the settler, doing that will delay GLH and Pyramids further. Mathematically it doesn't add up, otherwise I would prefer an earlier Pali as well.

dingding · May 12, 2010

Duckweed said:
I am going to run some tests and propose the detail plan tonight. Mids immediately is probably good.
I don't agree that Jus is isolated for sure, many leaders might put slider on EP. At least I know that SB will put 20% slider on EP and hence his research is always terrible.

I would be astonished if he puts the exact slider and EP target weights to accumulate exactly 4EP/turn on us.

I tried a game just now and certainly there will be a lot of thing to discuss. To give you some clues, for example:

1. It's possible to advance the settler by 1 turn by using the corn in the cap.
2. Bombay can climb up to 3 pop quickly with the same corn.
3. Whipping the Chariot can save 1 tree.

Await your detailed plan.

SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

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