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PCXII: Willem van Oranje

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CivIVMonger

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Hello Forum, and welcome yet again to the PC! Not the personal computer, the Prince Clique! This series was started a while back and was purposed around getting Noble level players to Prince; and prince to Monarch. Also, the second, (and equally important) is to have fun! It is also advised for some of the more advanced players to help out the people asking questions by giving solid advice.

Our leader this twelfth run in the series:

Civ4ScreenShot0374.jpg


Good ol' Willy! ;) Creative is a great tech for getting quick and easy border pops as well as cheap Libraries for early specialists. It also helps surpress enemy borders nicely early on and makes rapid expansion a whole lot easier. Financial is just awesome! +1 commerce on plots with at least 2. This is arguably the best trait in the game. The starting techs pretty much garuntee early food production and I personally really like them.

The Unique Unit

Civ4ScreenShot0377.jpg


The East Indiaman gives cargo spaces, can explore rival territory, and replaces the Galleon. This is a Terra map you guys, and I hope the implication of the UU makes it more fun!

The Unique Building

Civ4ScreenShot0378.jpg


Moai + Levee here we come! This is the ultimate abuse of High sea level with +1 hammer per water tile and riverside tile. Have fun! ;)

The Start

Civ4ScreenShot0372.jpg


Spoiler :
Good thing we have our starting techs, really good thing... I think in settle in place is in order.


(Sorry for the background in the screenshots. It should be legible though. My screenshot software expired in which I could window a screenshot.)

Map is
Spoiler :
Terra
High sea level
Temperate
Standard


Huts and events are off.

The Save View attachment Prince Willem .zip

NOTE:
Spoiler :
I did not add or remove any techs to the save. I only removed handicaps, max turns and playable civs. If there is any problem with the save please help me out by letting me know. The Archery thing is really puzzling me. I don't know by if replacing it weather it applies to all difficulties. Sorry for the low quality. :blush:


Finally, a cut and paste (and another slight edit) of the Nobles Club standard doctrine:

(I hope it isn't rude to use the same doctrine, as It applies to most forum games.)

There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do request that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards.

Tentative posting updates are suggested at:

4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didnt, met other continent if applicable, etc)
1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)

Remember, these are only guidelines. What we really want are your thoughts as the game goes on, so if your strats don't fall into line with those dates, feel free to adjust your reports accordingly.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "PCVIII Qin Shi Huang" (or Monarch, if you want the AI to start with its usual Archery bonus tech, or Immortal for Archery+Hunting, or Deity to add Agriculture). This allows you to play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome!

Have fun playing the forum game!
 
Intriguing riddle:

Assume you settle in place, and train workboat -> workboat. What's the best development plan? (assume that your end state needs at least two food resources improved, and at least two pop)

What plan is best for 3 improved seafood and three pop?
 
VoiceOfUnreason said:
Intriguing riddle:

Assume you settle in place, and train workboat -> workboat. What's the best development plan? (assume that your end state needs at least two food resources improved, and at least two pop)

What plan is best for 3 improved seafood and three pop?
Click to expand...

It isn't THAT intriguing since the corn is the best tile in the BFC by a hefty margin.

But it would be a useful exercise for starts that don't have the best possible tile in the game (well, pigs improve slightly faster early on but require a more expensive tech, and riverside corn is a whopping 7f1c at bio).
 
Early thoughts.

Spoiler :
Looks like Joao must die. If anybody can beat the game on a reasonable difficulty without getting rid of him, I would like to see it.
Sadly, the lack of copper and horses means swords, and I would have liked to get out sooner. Cest la vie.
As a side note, I am thinking of moving my capital to the Portuguese flood plains. The current capital seems to be a gp farm instead of cottage spam..

Edit. Stupid me. Not Joao, it's Ethiopia.
 
Joao?!


Spoiler :

I never encountered the Portuguese in my game.

This is actually an interesting setup. We're pretty much locked in to maybe 4 cities at most, if you expand fast enough. The cap is pretty nice - I recommend worker first and early BW to chop/whip out workboats/settlers. Due to only having iron, early rush is out, so taking out Zara is a long shot. However, Willie can keep up with tech nicely if you play it right - GLH is a nice option here. Also, it plays very nicely to a terra map strategy, so certain tech paths may be advantageous.

It's funny how stupid Monty is sometimes. He always seems to attack guys with the same religion. He attacked Greece who was the only other Hindu besides him. Everyone else, including me, was Bud. I bribed several people into war with Monty. He could be an target for more land in the old world, but I chose to ignore it.

Anyway, it's about 1000 AD on Emperor/Epic for me. I've settled conquered 6 cities in the new world - on one land mass - and no one else has Astro yet. I hope to get a strong foothold over there, especially since up to this point I've had so little land and my score reflects it big time. However, I'm ahead on techs for the most part. Possible reverse colony in the old world, but I hate to lose the cap. Well, that wont happen for a while anyway until I get some infra up in the new.


 
Taking a break around 1814 AD, outcome is still possible.

Apparently the AI in my game went gayscriptimplode, which is happen in way too many of my effing games lately. Explanation in spoiler.

IMM/Normal

Spoiler :


Settled in place. Meeting Zara very early while on a peninsula was not encouraging. Still, I opened worker ----> settler and managed to block him, and then early writing and I was able to go through for the flood plain/seafood and northern corn/seafood sites. Ultimately, I had 5 cities by 1 AD with room for 2 more (fish/deer and clam/iron). I was also runaway tech leader because I did early alpha gambit ---> spam trades.

Diplo in this was easy since buddhism/hindu was a 3/3 opposition split. I culture flipped zara's gold and used it to build paya on his border, running FR. I founded confucianism just by researching code, and bulbed taoism late.

I lazed up toward astro via picking trade bait techs, and did get to astro ~15-20 turns before anybody else. I spammed out 29 settlers and shipped them across on 2 east indiamen (won circumnavigation). Amazingly I still won lib w/o bulbing paper or education and going astro first. all 29 settlers were insta-liberations to my colony boudica, and as of this moment she has all but 5 or 6 sites on the entire continent...easily the largest civ in the game. Or...she should have been.

Now here's the problem: crappycles, the bane of my terra existence, in a different game expanded to 3 cities and basically handed the game to another AI through the doop shoot. In THIS GAME, pericles has 34% land and pop. He has:

1. Created 2 vassals. Both exist in areas you can get to via sailing. Both were closer to other AIs (hannibal and montezuma) respectively. Why the @#$@% does he have BOTH of these sites?

2. Capitulated montezuma. On size alone. He captured 0 aztec cities.

3. Taken Zara as a voluntary vassal, despite the fact that currently Zara is tougher than montezuma, hannibal, or any of the colonies (except possibly mine based on sheer units generated via liberating 29 cities).

Voluntary vassal thing...ok that's annoying but predictable. The fact that pericles is ~27% land (once you strip his 1/2 counting vassals) with almost no cities in the new world? Trash.

Let me say that a few more times, just in case the people who created spawns and expansion logic for balance weren't listening:

Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash.

And I'm going to do my damndest to win anyway. I'm around tech parity and do have infantry/arty, so that should allow me to sucker punch a few people.


Seriously, >25% land AIs that don't wage war is BULL@#%. Why does this keep happening to me? It's been an issue in 4 of my last 5 games!
 
Just from the traits alone my first thought was "I have to find some nice river city with a lot of green some near and cottage it!"...
So I was thinking that I would maybe switch a bit my priorities (lately I was researching pottery after BW) and maybe give priority to Pottery.
I would probably SIP, worker+Aggri. Then warrior for defense, maybe workboat and settler for 2nd city.
 
WvO with seafood!!! A recent settler level space colony gauntlet had me experimenting with WvO on a rainforest -- no seafood. Prince on a terra? Looks like we start on the northern tip. Wonder how fast this could be Mining Inc'ed to space ... Might have to give this a go this weekend.
 
I recently moved up to Noble, but I've already got a solid win under my belt. Might try this out later, see what Prince is like. I don't think I can pass up such a nice start :)

Never played Willem though, should be interesting.
 
TheMeInTeam said:
Taking a break around 1814 AD, outcome is still possible.

Apparently the AI in my game went gayscriptimplode, which is happen in way too many of my effing games lately. Explanation in spoiler.

IMM/Normal

Spoiler :


Settled in place. Meeting Zara very early while on a peninsula was not encouraging. Still, I opened worker ----> settler and managed to block him, and then early writing and I was able to go through for the flood plain/seafood and northern corn/seafood sites. Ultimately, I had 5 cities by 1 AD with room for 2 more (fish/deer and clam/iron). I was also runaway tech leader because I did early alpha gambit ---> spam trades.

Diplo in this was easy since buddhism/hindu was a 3/3 opposition split. I culture flipped zara's gold and used it to build paya on his border, running FR. I founded confucianism just by researching code, and bulbed taoism late.

I lazed up toward astro via picking trade bait techs, and did get to astro ~15-20 turns before anybody else. I spammed out 29 settlers and shipped them across on 2 east indiamen (won circumnavigation). Amazingly I still won lib w/o bulbing paper or education and going astro first. all 29 settlers were insta-liberations to my colony boudica, and as of this moment she has all but 5 or 6 sites on the entire continent...easily the largest civ in the game. Or...she should have been.

Now here's the problem: crappycles, the bane of my terra existence, in a different game expanded to 3 cities and basically handed the game to another AI through the doop shoot. In THIS GAME, pericles has 34% land and pop. He has:

1. Created 2 vassals. Both exist in areas you can get to via sailing. Both were closer to other AIs (hannibal and montezuma) respectively. Why the @#$@% does he have BOTH of these sites?

2. Capitulated montezuma. On size alone. He captured 0 aztec cities.

3. Taken Zara as a voluntary vassal, despite the fact that currently Zara is tougher than montezuma, hannibal, or any of the colonies (except possibly mine based on sheer units generated via liberating 29 cities).

Voluntary vassal thing...ok that's annoying but predictable. The fact that pericles is ~27% land (once you strip his 1/2 counting vassals) with almost no cities in the new world? Trash.

Let me say that a few more times, just in case the people who created spawns and expansion logic for balance weren't listening:

Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash.

And I'm going to do my damndest to win anyway. I'm around tech parity and do have infantry/arty, so that should allow me to sucker punch a few people.


Seriously, >25% land AIs that don't wage war is BULL@#%. Why does this keep happening to me? It's been an issue in 4 of my last 5 games!
Click to expand...

Calm down! :eek:

Wow... I would say that your only option is to settle the new world and maybe fling some nukes at Greece later? :)
 
CivIVMonger said:
Calm down! :eek:

Wow... I would say that your only option is to settle the new world and maybe fling some nukes at Greece later? :)
Click to expand...

New world is almost 100% my colony.

It's not even the fault of the map, just two different AIs first imploding, then bending over, then taking it hard in the style of their master.

But the AIs that conceded their land and decided not to try in my save...are not even particularly wonder spammy. For as much as people says this BS doesn't happen, it can't be TOO rare if someone can go 10 games and have over 5 of them allow a 30% land AI without war.

My problem is that every AI but one is this noob chobo's vassal, and he didn't earn any. I need more land to get stronger though, I doubt my colony is going to do much in terms of actual help (I'm sure that it will cut down opposing cities on its own continent just fine, and defend, but actual help on my side is doubtful).

My thoughts as of my stopping point are along the line of "UN". I have virtually the entire new world favoring me as my colony, so if I can chain a few vassals or break them up even a little bit, I can probably win out before someone pulls culture or space.
 
Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash. Your spawns are trash.
Click to expand...
Spoiler :

DID SOMEONE SAY TRASH SPAWN?

Civ4BeyondSword2010-05-1420-00-26-9.jpg


BECAUSE I BELIEVE SOMEONE CLEARLY ORDERED A COW PLAIN PLATTER
 
Playing Prince/Normal, my round to 1k BC.

Spoiler :

To my very surprise i realised after 10 or so turns that i am pretty boxed with ethiopian right at the border (almost). So I instantly thought about quick rush, but with what units?
I decided to tech Aggri, then Mysticism, Animal husbandry (have we luck with horse? nooo ethiops get them!), BW (have we luck on copper, no, dunno where they are).

So what now? Well what we have we will use... quickly amassed 4 warriors and rushed Ethiopians. I manage to get it! But to my surprise they have second city! So quick peace is in order, but Ethiops made good work... the horses are online after few turns (eth. cap grows) i can build chariots, so quickly make 3 chariots and go finish my work!
That brings me to uncontested expansion in my corner which should follow next round. But tough for me to say where to place cities...
Aksum will be prod. city, 4 hills in BFC is uncontested + hammers from horse and cow.
Will probably next make city somewhere near the western gold, then probably on the flood river, but there i see problem with too much desert, will have to scout it a bit.
There should be placed (probably 2 cities) between amsterodam and aksum.
More scouting to the north and west needed.
 
Actually, nine plains cows would be a pretty solid capitol, as the tiles themselves are a solid 27 base hammers (28 with city tile) and are all food positive, allowing for some shops later on. It's the ONE plains cow with mostly plains (and plains hills) all over the place that really hurts.

Besides, I'm not complaining about the capitol, but rather how the AI spawns relative to each other and how it expands given that situation. A lot of people will feel the human gets shafted with his own start here...and yet that isn't even on my radar in terms of what bothered me, rather the immortal AIs ignoring land near themselves so another AI can take large tracts and not suffer due to its bonuses is what bothers me.
 
Well, I got dogpiled while waging war against the less civs by mr. auto win 4000BC. Maybe other people will get lucky and one guy won't get 30% land by himself.

I'll throw in the screenies and leave this behind me.

Spoiler :

Civ4ScreenShot0004-14.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0005-10.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0006-9.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0007-9.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0008-7.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0009-6.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0010-5.jpg


Boudica was my vassal. Pericles had 5 vassals by game end, one of which he acquired in war, but without taking any cities at all.

I'd rather play games where there isn't a chance of L regardless of actions right from the start. By the way, Pericles ripped off his DoW on me while very close to a culture win, which was actually extremely stupid and would have cost him if this game wasn't so rigged in his favor it goes beyond belief.

And again, this outcome isn't the map maker's fault...the cities all over those islands should not have belonged to one AI exclusively (pre colony), and yet that is exactly what happened FTL.
 
Played the noble save as it came. Space 1710 AD, 13 hrs.
Spoiler :
Obvious GPF start. Settled in place and used the trees for a couple of quick warriors. Together with the starting warrior Zara was gone in 15-20 turns. i.e. Rush the first civ you meet. A later HA war with some axe/upgraded mace or two against Qin is enough really. Having played a lot of low level rainforests, an early granary is enough to get to space fast. Qin's land is like a rainforest except with trees for fast courthouses and we have WvO for cheap libraries. (I did get lucky in the later stages of Qin's war when I found a warrior defended barb city ON FOOD PLAINS with TWO barb workers outside. That city got cottaged REAL fast.)

General strategy after Zara and discounting Qin: REX some settlers/workers for the stone/FP site and find marble. Pre-mine/chop trees in Amsterdam so that TGLibrary/NE goes up fast under bureau while Aksum chops like snot the Parthenon/Mids/Palace. Forbidden palace in Bejing. Don't really have to get off the terra. I settled only two cities in the new world for copper and stone. (GP problems. I mistakenly thought that an artist could be used for Creative Constructions ... Stupid. But 4 turns later got a GE for Mining Inc. Sushi had already been spread and superconductors lib'ed in.)

Used OR and Free Religion. OR mainly to fling a few missionaries (any religion) around for happiness under free religion and any emergency temple building that may have to get done. Paya'ed in free religion and switched ASAP. As usual, mercantilism for the lower level even with corps.

Diplo: voted for Roosevelt (AP) every time. Easy to get along with Hannibal and Pericles. Monty was, well, inept against both Pericles and Roosevelt while Hannibal had a grudge against Roosevelt. Just went about the business of getting to space fast: beakers first then hammers/health. Happiness was a bit tricky but nothing Qin's land couldn't solve.

EDIT: Did save a few trees for preserve happiness.
 
Did something I haven’t done in a little while: turned down the difficulty a notch (played this on prince /normal) and just had some fun. And it was a great game too! My compliments and thanks to CivIVMonger for putting together a map and leader combination which work really well together at this level. :) FWIW, I managed a conquest victory in 1645AD (and really should’ve gotten it earlier but no matter) for a score of 132,233.

Write up follows:

Spoiler :
Went worker, mining > BW first intending to farm the corn and then chop some workboats – but all that changed on meeting Zara very early. Changed to working the plains hill to build three (IIRC) warriors and, together with my starting warrior, finished Zara off in 3000BC for the loss of one warrior. Capital then resumed its worker and did some more scouting only to find Qin and later Roosevelt. Set Amsterdam and Aksum to whip more warriors whilst chops in Amsterdam were directed into workboats - and then warrior rushed Qin who was still defending with warriors in 2000BC.

Thought about rushing Roosevelt too but common sense prevailed – plus, it became obvious that placing two cities south of Beijing would block off a good portion of the map and secure marble and stone. The latter was particularly important given the absence (gold apart) of early happiness resources. Then went wonder building: settled the fish / stone site (in addition to two cities south of Beijing to block Roosevelt and the sheep / gold site for a happy boost) and nabbed the mids (to switch to rep and run some early scientists in Amsterdam), the GLH and HGs. The Parthenon (in Aksum) and GL (in Am’dam) followed to make use of the marble and then built a very late Colossus. As it happened, The Colossus proved a great wonder this game, working with Willem’s financial trait to make coastal tiles 4:commerce:. After completing the worker techs and writing meanwhile, tech went maths > currency to help keep the economy afloat whilst I was settling the land and then up to literature via polytheism.

Further scouting revealed Pericles and Monty around who, like Willem and Roosevelt went Buddhist. Hannibal was the sole (Jewish) heathen. As more land got settled meanwhile, more conflict became inevitable, beginning firstly with Hannibal attacking Roosevelt. After losing a few American cities, Roosevelt approached to see if the Dutch would war against Hannibal – and, having cobbled together a small army of axes, swords and catas (construction and metal casting came after literature), I agreed...and retook Philadelphia, stopping Hannibal’s expansion plans. Tech then went theology – early I know but, seeing how everyone was on the one landmass, I wanted control of the AP.

Monty however then decided to shatter the peace amongst the Buddhist bloc by attacking his religious brother Pericles and, free from war against Hannibal, Roosevelt replied by declaring on Monty (perhaps he was bribed). Sensing the chance to dogpile, the Dutch Dow’d Monty as well and, by 1180AD Monty was down to a couple of cities off the mainland. Those cities would later become Dutch once astronomy came in and East Indiamen ferried a few troops over to his island hideout. Tech at this point BTW focussed on two goals: (i) getting an early engineering for trebs (and Notre Dame in Aksum) and then onto education and chemistry for liberalism (although there was a brief detour for music to enable a golden age to change civics).

Liberalism was duly secured in 1170AD and I took steel as the free tech - cue mass production of cannons, in particular in Aksum which had the HE and Ironworks (thanks to a GE bulb) built in it. With steel taken, tech went toward rifling whilst a GM (thanks to TGL / Colossus) went on a trade mission to nab some gold. In 1340AD, with an army of cannons, rifles and maces, Pericles was Dow’ed...and became a vassal in 1490AD.

From there it was a snowball...tech went firstly toward economics and then toward assembly line so that I could upgrade the rifles to infantry courtesy of the economics secured GM. The combination of infantry and cannons DoW’d Roosevelt in 1590AD and finished him off in 1620AD. After moving all the infantry and cannons into Roosevelt’s old city of Philly, I decided to DoW Hannibal in 1635AD. Next turn, Hannibal suicided about 30 of his 35+ SoD on the Dutch SoD. Given that Hannibal’s most advanced unit was a knight however (he was two turns from military tradition for cavalry), he failed to inflict any Dutch casualties...and duly came to the table to cap.

All in all, a very enjoyable game! My only regret is that my settlers never quite finished their journey to settle the new world since conquest was secured with them still en route.:D Thanks for hosting CivIVMonger. :)


vranasm:
Spoiler :
I couldn’t open your save because I don’t have BUG installed but there are a few things visible from your screenies.

Firstly, congratulations on rushing Zara...as you surmised, it was the right move, given how boxed in you were at the start.

That said, your screenies suggest to me that you are now building infrastructure a little too early IMHO. As you mention, there is room for a few more cities between Aksum and Amsterdam, so perhaps it would be worthwhile building some warriors, workers and settlers to settle the land and connect up your cities, if you’re inclined to play that way. The alternative is to perhaps scout out Qin and maybe chariot rush him to grab another capital, if you want to wage war. As you mention, Aksum is a great production site...so perhaps it can do without the library, at least for now?

In addition, what is your thought process behind teching aesthetics at this point? The reason I ask is that, judging by your screenshot, you can only see gold for an early happiness boost (and wine once monarchy is in). As a result, I’d ask: is it worthwhile teching toward monarchy so that you can remedy the lack of happiness resources revealed by your scouting? And of course, as you rightly note, more scouting is needed too.

Look forward to seeing how you progress. :)
 
learner gamer said:
vranasm:
Spoiler :
I couldn’t open your save because I don’t have BUG installed but there are a few things visible from your screenies.

Firstly, congratulations on rushing Zara...as you surmised, it was the right move, given how boxed in you were at the start.

That said, your screenies suggest to me that you are now building infrastructure a little too early IMHO. As you mention, there is room for a few more cities between Aksum and Amsterdam, so perhaps it would be worthwhile building some warriors, workers and settlers to settle the land and connect up your cities, if you’re inclined to play that way. The alternative is to perhaps scout out Qin and maybe chariot rush him to grab another capital, if you want to wage war. As you mention, Aksum is a great production site...so perhaps it can do without the library, at least for now?

In addition, what is your thought process behind teching aesthetics at this point? The reason I ask is that, judging by your screenshot, you can only see gold for an early happiness boost (and wine once monarchy is in). As a result, I’d ask: is it worthwhile teching toward monarchy so that you can remedy the lack of happiness resources revealed by your scouting? And of course, as you rightly note, more scouting is needed too.

Look forward to seeing how you progress. :)
Click to expand...

Spoiler :
I played more the game, but didnt went the way I wanted and so I abandoned it a bit, but after your reaction I would maybe try another clean start from 1k bc with more experience.

To the library thing. The thing is when i arrive to the happy cap I need somewhere to put citizens to not overgrow limit, so that's why i use library for science spec. if I remember correctly i build there more farms for the hills, but there are good grassland hills. Maybe it was wrong thinking

Aesthetics is mostly for trade and if I remember correctly in this game I actually got great library after literature through those forests in cap.
I think I teched monarchy after literature in my try and used those wineries there.

Actually squeezed in 4 more cities, to the gold site, farm and to the north there are good places.

But I think i did there my usual mistake with too low number of workers, I am watching now TMIT's videos on youtube and boy I tell you he has there a lot of workers!

Biggest problem was for me and why I gave up, that i actually was around 1k AD in attacking mood, having medium sized SoD and was thinking about owning Roosevelt, that well didnt went well... That damned american techs like devil!

 
vranasm:
Spoiler :
Sorry the game became tough for you. Hopefully, you still managed to have some fun along the way and, with the aid of TMIT’s videos, can identify some areas in which you can improve and win your next game.

On the subject of the happy cap and using scientists to stall city growth, my recommendation would actually be to try and keep your cities growing as often as possible. The main reason for this is that you can always whip away pop in a city (post slavery) to keep happiness from going above the happy cap.

In other words, I would suggest trying not to use scientists to stop a city from growing but would instead try and find ways of raising the happy cap so that a city can keep growing. Popular ways of doing this include building the pyramids to switch to representation or hereditary rule, teching monarchy early (again for hereditary rule), prioritise teching calendar if there are loads of different calendar resources about, or maybe settling more cities to get hold of early happiness resources. Of course, you can also build some happiness boosting buildings. Now, as it happens, with stone and wine around (and Willem being creative => fast colosseums), this map gives the gamer a couple of ways to boost the happy cap to allow them to grow their cities.

Please understand BTW that I also use science specialists – however, I use them mainly to boost research and generate GP points rather than to deliberately stall the growth of a city.

As you progress up the difficulty levels, one thing you’ll find IMHO is that the map will usually be lacking in “something” when you play. It might for instance be lacking in happiness resources (as is the case here), health resources, maybe even commerce. As I’ve discovered, the best players (such as kossin and TMIT for instance) are usually the ones who identify the strengths and weaknesses of the map very well, and then work out ways of overcoming the obstacle this presents (eg. by building the pyramids to raise the happy cap) so that their civ can continue to grow. Oh, and, as you rightly point out, they often also use many more workers than alot of players.

Hope this helps. :)
 
learner gamer said:
vranasm:
Spoiler :
Sorry the game became tough for you. Hopefully, you still managed to have some fun along the way and, with the aid of TMIT’s videos, can identify some areas in which you can improve and win your next game.

On the subject of the happy cap and using scientists to stall city growth, my recommendation would actually be to try and keep your cities growing as often as possible. The main reason for this is that you can always whip away pop in a city (post slavery) to keep happiness from going above the happy cap.

In other words, I would suggest trying not to use scientists to stop a city from growing but would instead try and find ways of raising the happy cap so that a city can keep growing. Popular ways of doing this include building the pyramids to switch to representation or hereditary rule, teching monarchy early (again for hereditary rule), prioritise teching calendar if there are loads of different calendar resources about, or maybe settling more cities to get hold of early happiness resources. Of course, you can also build some happiness boosting buildings. Now, as it happens, with stone and wine around (and Willem being creative => fast colosseums), this map gives the gamer a couple of ways to boost the happy cap to allow them to grow their cities.

Please understand BTW that I also use science specialists – however, I use them mainly to boost research and generate GP points rather than to deliberately stall the growth of a city.

As you progress up the difficulty levels, one thing you’ll find IMHO is that the map will usually be lacking in “something” when you play. It might for instance be lacking in happiness resources (as is the case here), health resources, maybe even commerce. As I’ve discovered, the best players (such as kossin and TMIT for instance) are usually the ones who identify the strengths and weaknesses of the map very well, and then work out ways of overcoming the obstacle this presents (eg. by building the pyramids to raise the happy cap) so that their civ can continue to grow. Oh, and, as you rightly point out, they often also use many more workers than alot of players.

Hope this helps. :)
Click to expand...

Spoiler :

Hmm that's good food for thought, but I try to avoid overwhipping, usually going for whipping 2 pop at once (or more, to get most buck out of -1 happy) and using mostly on infra like courthouse, sometimes granary, library... actually lately I think I am not whipping "enough".
I try to not include in my gameplay dependence on any soon wonder, because that makes you one trick pony and lately i think I am not building any particular soon wonder. The GL was a bit exception and sometimes I try for Oracle, but as I said, lately I am not using easy tactics that are not available on higher playground.

Biggest problem I have is with recognizing good cities (yeah I know resources etc. but you still have to mix and match resources to cities and sometimes you even do some overlap) and even if i read a lot about city specialization it comes out very often that I tip bad city specialization... e.g. I think "good production city" and it will come out good commerce and in other place "good specialist city" well not really etc.

And one thing I particulary really lack are workers ;-) it's sooo tempting to build everything other then workers. I made home rule "when you are not sure what to build, build worker" and still I dont follow that rule enough :-).
And sometimes when I see kossin coming and telling "this particular map is commerce heavy", "production poor" or something along those lines, I just gulp and thing "how the hell he knows it?!". well i hope this will come with practice.
 
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