SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

1 fogged tile is enough for barb cities to spawn, even if you have units spawnbusting. (That is, 2 tiles from one of your current units -- in the outer ring of 5x5 around any unit)

Moving the SW warrior NW has >50% chances the warrior will follow us, leaving the area free to spawn more barbs or a city.

I agree the NW warrior can move after Vijay borders have popped. Just not sure how many units we can have outside our borders before we get maintenance...
 
kossin said:
Moving the SW warrior NW has >50% chances the warrior will follow us, leaving the area free to spawn more barbs or a city.
Click to expand...
Only if he has higher winning odd, will he follow, otherwise, totally random but avoid approaching our culture border. The Woodman II warrior will arrive in 3 turns. We don't have dominant winning odd for now. Either way has risk, I'd take the risk with highest return.

BTW, we still can execute the Axe whipping plan in the beginning of next set if the final consensus goes for 1150BC date.

If that's all right, I can play tonight.
 
Seems Ok. Go ahead.

BTW I don't think moving the warrior in NW is a good idea, even Vijay pops the border.
If it dies, it will be a complete disaster in NW.
I prefer him to stay in the position.

Edit: When can you submit, Duck? If in an hour, I'll wait.
 
It's alright with me as well if you play now, Duckweed.

1 fogged tile is enough for barb cities to spawn, even if you have units spawnbusting. (That is, 2 tiles from one of your current units -- in the outer ring of 5x5 around any unit)
Click to expand...
Thanks. I assumed it was easier to prevent cities from spawning than units.
 
Saved file uploaded.

Log
Spoiler :

Turn 89, 1775 BC: You have discovered Masonry!

Turn 90, 1750 BC: You have discovered Fishing!

Turn 91, 1725 BC: Confucianism has spread in Vijayanagara.

Turn 92, 1700 BC: The borders of Vijayanagara have expanded!
Turn 92, 1700 BC: Zara Yaqob converts to Buddhism!

Turn 93, 1675 BC: Gandhi's Warrior (2.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.00)
Turn 93, 1675 BC: Combat Odds: 50.0%
Turn 93, 1675 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 93, 1675 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 93, 1675 BC: Gandhi's Warrior is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 93, 1675 BC: Gandhi's Warrior is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 93, 1675 BC: Gandhi's Warrior is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 93, 1675 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 93, 1675 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 93, 1675 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 93, 1675 BC: Gandhi's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 93, 1675 BC: Stonehenge has been built in a far away land!

Turn 94, 1650 BC: You have discovered Sailing!
Turn 94, 1650 BC: Bombay can no longer work on Stonehenge. The lost ? is converted into 30?!
Turn 94, 1650 BC: Vijayanagara can no longer work on Stonehenge. The lost ? is converted into 18?!

Turn 98, 1550 BC: Werner Heisenberg (Great Scientist) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!

Turn 99, 1525 BC: Gandhi adopts Slavery!
Turn 99, 1525 BC: Pataliputra has been founded.
Turn 99, 1525 BC: You have trained a Chariot in Delhi. Work has now begun on The Pyramids.
Turn 99, 1525 BC: Confucianism has spread in Pataliputra.

Turn 100, 1500 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 101, 1475 BC: Justinian I adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 101, 1475 BC: Justinian I converts to Judaism!
Turn 101, 1475 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Gandhi's Chariot 1 (Delhi) (4.00)
Turn 101, 1475 BC: Combat Odds: 26.7%
Turn 101, 1475 BC: Gandhi's Chariot 1 (Delhi) is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 101, 1475 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 101, 1475 BC: Gandhi's Chariot 1 (Delhi) is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 101, 1475 BC: Gandhi's Chariot 1 (Delhi) is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 101, 1475 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 101, 1475 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 101, 1475 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 101, 1475 BC: Gandhi's Chariot 1 (Delhi) is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 101, 1475 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 101, 1475 BC: Gandhi's Chariot 1 (Delhi) has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 101, 1475 BC: While defending, your Chariot 1 (Delhi) has killed a Barbarian Archer!

Turn 102, 1450 BC: Bombay can hurry Fast Worker for 1? with 9? overflow and +1? for 15 turns.
Turn 102, 1450 BC: Vijayanagara can hurry Lighthouse for 1? with 12? overflow and +1? for 15 turns.
Turn 102, 1450 BC: You are the worst enemy of Justinian I.
Turn 102, 1450 BC: Justinian I won't trade Clam

Turn 103, 1425 BC: Justinian I has no worst enemy.
Turn 103, 1425 BC: Justinian I will trade Clam


Some real good lucks :D

1. We have a Woodman III warrior through one battle against a barbarian warrior.:band:
2. 2nd GP was a GS at 85% odd.
3. Vij and Pat got Confu. Vij did not get religion early enough, therefore I still hired 2 artists for border pop.
4. Chariot won the battle against an archer

Sorry, forgot to do the Corn<->Clam trade since I did not write down in the draft. :blush:

One picture tells everything -- Religion, EP.
Spoiler :

EmpireView-2.jpg

 
:goodjob:

Fantastic result with WIII warrior and 2nd GS!

SH went very late (1675BC)... I'd say Pyramids are ours 100%.

Zara is researching Masonry and already has a LH in Aksum...I think we have to worry about GLH. I think it's 90% certain Zara will attempt GLH. Depending on his expansion we might not have to worry about it but I'm a bit wary.

Don't like Zara being Buddhist... we might have an angry neighbor. He has horses but no clue on Iron.

Justinian founded Judaism and got SH... I'm pretty sure he'll bulb Theology - unless the GP order asks for shrine first in the code.

I'll update the test game in a moment.

Vijay can start working Marble now, we gain 1 commerce this way and get the same production.

EDIT: test game now updated. Forgot to check where Duckweed put the spare hammers in Vijay so I added them on an Axe.

EDIT2: added extra hammers to Lighthouse accordingly.
 

Attachments

I suggest next set should be less than 15 turns:

-if forest growth 1175BC (GLH in 1 turn)
-if no forest growth 1150BC (option to whip GLH perhaps?)
-earlier if GLH is surprised-built

That should give us the best clue of how to handle the situation. If Zara and Justinian build 2 more cities then we probably don't have to worry too much about GLH. However if Zara stays at 2/3 cities... whip I say.

Since Bugg already had a short set, maybe Udey1 can swap in to make up for last round?
 
kossin said:
EDIT: test game now updated. Forgot to check where Duckweed put the spare hammers in Vijay so I added them on an Axe.
Click to expand...

Did you refer to the turn when SH was built and 1 turn before sailing, the hammers went to LH since we could still produce SH in that turn.

We need to vote for GLH issue in the beginning since I'd rather whip an Axe than whip the GLH directly. In that case, we probably need to produce an Axe in the 1st turn with 2 citizens on FPs and 1 citizen on Cow. Have not run the test though. Otherwise as what kossin suggested -- Cow, Horse, and Marble.

My vote unchanged -- No whip.;)
 
Whipping Axe plan accelerates GLH by 1 turn -- 1125BC. Quite a lot issues to be discussed in the next set. I'd suggest to list all possible issues for vote before posting a plan.
 
Great Duckweed!

Lucky to have a WIII warrior and some religion spread.

But very unlucky for some other points. I thought under no self religion, Justine was a good mate for our Diplo victory. What's worse is Zara converted to Buddhism. We need some effort to get this friend. Hope Alphabet will be finished early and we can get mono from Justine ASAP.
 
About GLH:

I think it's in no way justified that Zara will beat us on the race, even without the whipping on our side.

Given his graph, his cap is 11-13h/turn in full production, which is almost the same, if not less, as Vijay. If he starts the GLH at the same time with us, say 3-4 turns later, he will by no mean finish it before us, given our efficient chopping with Maths and no bonus for wonder building for an Emp AI.

I would consider, however, Justine as a potential competitor. He has Masonry for sure and probably Sailing. His capital is probably coastal. He may have good production under OR. What's more disturbing is his expansion stopped for 25 turns already, which is abnormal for an IMP leader. Maybe for SH, maybe for LH +GLH, I'm less sure in this case.
 
:goodjob:

HE unlocked + GS = very nice :)
The religious situation is a bit dicey, I suppose... but we'll see.

2 main builder issues for next set?

When do we finish Mids?
With late SH (and still no TGW), I suppose we have time to ease off the forests. The unhappy Delhi citizen due shortly probably doesn't matter much, but if we want him productive, Mids @1375BC is still an option, and we'll make sure we get it at the cost of 1 extra forest.

How do we finish GLH?
I'm in the "I worry" camp (I'm usually in that camp, btw :lol:). GLH seems to go a bit at random. I've probably played through to GLH a few too many times, but the fact that we do lose it 1150-1100BC in testing a fair amount still lands me in the "I want to whip" camp. Having GLH is more important than having Vijay at size 4.

I ofcourse aggree that if we can get both GLH AND keep Vijay at size 4 that's a lot better, and if that's a gamble the team wants to take, so be it... not having GLH will make our expansion a lot harder, though.

I suppose we don't feel threatened for Mids, but what if Justinian is going for that (and not GLH)?. Given his 20-25turns of non-expansion, is that a possibility?

Diplo issues
How do we want to proceed? Do we want to suck up to anyone in particular? Do we try to convert Zara ASAP? (Alphabet can come in soon enough.. so trading for OR and getting at it sooner rather than later is an option). How do we deal with demands right now? (I realize it's a bit early for it, maybe, but we need a plan)

Tech issues
Also "a bit" early, but unless we meet most AI fairly shortly, we want lib for astro? I guess we can probably get it fairly early in the ADs ..
 
Since Bugg already had a short set, maybe Udey1 can swap in to make up for last round?
Click to expand...

I don't mind either way. If Udey1 would rather do expansion, I can do the "boring" stuff. The actual discussion leading up to the turnsets gives me more than playing the turnsets anyways :)
 
Zara has no way to beat us on GLH given his production.

I also not too worry about Jus since he just finished SH in 1675BC and that explained his slow expansion lately. The fact of late TGW and SH told the overall low production of AIs and very high possibility that no industrious AI exists in this game. We are the 2nd in production. The AI who owns TGW might present production capability, but again, all AIs have higher probability to pursue SH than GLH before 1675BC.

The diplomatic issue is pretty complicate, there's at least 1 AI with Bud in the eastern island. We don't know which final religion we want to adopt for now, but obviously not Confu. We need to switch to no religion during exploration time to enable OB with those unknown religious zealots at the time we meet.
 
dingding said:
About GLH:

I think it's in no way justified that Zara will beat us on the race, even without the whipping on our side.

Given his graph, his cap is 11-13h/turn in full production, which is almost the same, if not less, as Vijay. If he starts the GLH at the same time with us, say 3-4 turns later, he will by no mean finish it before us, given our efficient chopping with Maths and no bonus for wonder building for an Emp AI.

I would consider, however, Justine as a potential competitor. He has Masonry for sure and probably Sailing. His capital is probably coastal. He may have good production under OR. What's more disturbing is his expansion stopped for 25 turns already, which is abnormal for an IMP leader. Maybe for SH, maybe for LH +GLH, I'm less sure in this case.
Click to expand...
I agree that Zara isn't a case to worry about but that however Justinian is. He has Sailing+Masonry+Mono so he's got some decent production going.

However: it should be noted that neither Zara or Justinian have cities in the top 5 iIrc. Delhi is second, there's bound to be the Buddhist and Hindu holy cities which leaves 2 cities.

The formula for top 5 cities:
(culture/5+total food yield+total hammers yield+total city commerce)*pop

We can try evaluating the other 2 cities on the list... I'm guessing Creative civs with better land than Zara (possibly commerce tiles).

There's still a risk for an unknown civ to beat us to it but I guess that's a chance we'll have to take.

Bottom line: if no civ has started GLH yet, it's probably ours without whipping. If a civ has already started it or will in the next ~5 turns, we'll lose it unless we whip (and even then it's no guarantee).

As we'll argue over and over on this I will not argue in favor of whipping unless both Zara and Justinian expansion keep stagnating. If at 1150BC Justinian and Zara have added a city each, then no whip. If neither has however -> whip.

Bugg123 said:
:goodjob:

HE unlocked + GS = very nice :)
The religious situation is a bit dicey, I suppose... but we'll see.

2 main builder issues for next set?

When do we finish Mids?
With late SH (and still no TGW), I suppose we have time to ease off the forests. The unhappy Delhi citizen due shortly probably doesn't matter much, but if we want him productive, Mids @1375BC is still an option, and we'll make sure we get it at the cost of 1 extra forest.

How do we finish GLH?
I'm in the "I worry" camp (I'm usually in that camp, btw :lol:). GLH seems to go a bit at random. I've probably played through to GLH a few too many times, but the fact that we do lose it 1150-1100BC in testing a fair amount still lands me in the "I want to whip" camp. Having GLH is more important than having Vijay at size 4.

I ofcourse aggree that if we can get both GLH AND keep Vijay at size 4 that's a lot better, and if that's a gamble the team wants to take, so be it... not having GLH will make our expansion a lot harder, though.

I suppose we don't feel threatened for Mids, but what if Justinian is going for that (and not GLH)?. Given his 20-25turns of non-expansion, is that a possibility?

Diplo issues
How do we want to proceed? Do we want to suck up to anyone in particular? Do we try to convert Zara ASAP? (Alphabet can come in soon enough.. so trading for OR and getting at it sooner rather than later is an option). How do we deal with demands right now? (I realize it's a bit early for it, maybe, but we need a plan)

Tech issues
Also "a bit" early, but unless we meet most AI fairly shortly, we want lib for astro? I guess we can probably get it fairly early in the ADs ..
Click to expand...
Saving a forest means 1325BC Pyramids so 3 turns less of Representation. However the forest can be added to Granary/Library in short order which could gain us some research/production overall - not sure.

However since we're moving into NSR soon to avoid religious hate 1375BC Pyramids for happiness is probably better. (Unless we stick into Confu for longer then it's not as important)

I've voiced my last opinion on GLH:
Justinian adds 4th city: no whip
No added city: whip

Demands: keep open borders... there probably won't be anything else.

Bugg123 said:
I don't mind either way. If Udey1 would rather do expansion, I can do the "boring" stuff. The actual discussion leading up to the turnsets gives me more than playing the turnsets anyways :)
Click to expand...
Alright, it was just a proposition, it's yours. Looks like it will be 15 turns anyway.

Duckweed said:
Zara has no way to beat us on GLH given his production.

I also not too worry about Jus since he just finished SH in 1675BC and that explained his slow expansion lately. The fact of late TGW and SH told the overall low production of AIs and very high possibility that no industrious AI exists in this game. We are the 2nd in production. The AI who owns TGW might present production capability, but again, all AIs have higher probability to pursue SH than GLH before 1675BC.

The diplomatic issue is pretty complicate, there's at least 1 AI with Bud in the eastern island. We don't know which final religion we want to adopt for now, but obviously not Confu. We need to switch to no religion during exploration time to enable OB with those unknown religious zealots at the time we meet.
Click to expand...
Zara probably no indeed. If Justinian gets a 4th city soon then you're probably right.

Last time I say it: no whip unless no expansion from Justinian until 1150BC. Natural GLH finish is 1075BC and 3 turns is plenty of time for Zara/Justinian to get in whipping range - especially Justinian with OR.
 
Here's how I see the next 15 turns:
-Delhi: finish Pyramids ASAP then finish Library. 2 workers (maybe 3 for 2 turns) stick around to cottage a bit. If we chop a non-BFC forest, library will be done as it grows to size 8, ready to start on settler(s)

-Bombay: chop a settler next. We can aim to grow it to size 3 after that via ToA I guess

-Vijay: finish GLH (no whip) then wb... let's gamble.

-Pali: whip first workboat in 2 turns, whip second workboat 1 turn before growth to size 3 (or at size 3...). Improve cows and then let it grow on granary+Lighthouse. This will be a whipping/GP factory depending on Slavery/Caste

The WIII warrior is useful and should be saved. He's our 4th warrior meaning we don't need to build any others really - we can keep the 4 we have until Victory. Nonetheless he can try to fogbust around the wheat, that would free up our Chariot to explore our landmass (E of Zara and S of Delhi).

Techs:
Mathematics-Pottery-0% slider until Library is done -> Currency
If trades become available try to grab Alphabet/Monotheism.

Revolt to NSR after we're in Representation. Keep open borders with everyone.

Workboat1 finds route to Justinian then. Can't remember if he met Zara or no. If he hasn't that means at least 1 AI north and probably none west of him... still I think it might be possible to circle globe early here. That would certainly be a boost. Worboat2 goes north, chariot goes east and we can always get Workboat3/Galley to go east if there's much land north.
 
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