SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

No, his 2nd city in the south already take that cow.

post #515 are my suggested modification.

kossin said:

@Duckweed
The issues you raise are from the next set (after Udey1)?
Or do you have something for those 13 turns?

Delhi will be size 5/6 (can't remember) at 1150BC so we can decide next to whip settler or not.

Click to expand...

size 5, 3 turns to 6

Duckweed said:

@Udey1
Overall your plan looks good, but I have some issues and will update soon.

Edit:

The following are all modifications:

T 103 -- Why not sent the worker to chop the forest 1NW of Vij and then the forest outside the border
T 104 -- Should be 3 chops completed IIRC
T 105 -- that worker starts to chop forest around Bombay. Delhi starts Granary
T 106 -- Delhi whip Granary (it should be whipped as soon as possible to save the food) another 2 workers also chop the forests in Bombay. After 3 chops done, you can send 1 worker back to Delhi for cottages
T 107 -- Overflow to Lib, Bombay new worker to the forest hill and chop next turn
T 108 -- Whip lib
T 109 -- Start ToA

Above are my impression of previous test run, the major different is 2 pop whip of granary and lib as soon as possible.

Last Note, Burea cottages are powerful, but there are things more important!!!

Click to expand...

3 chops are done on 104 true
2 more on 105.
pyramids finishes 106. we would need an extra worker to finish at 105.
I do 2 pop whip the granary after overflow for a turn. forgot to write that in the report but it is in my handwritten notes.

good idea for the worker to go Grassland forest -clams first instead of the hill. I will make that change.

Alright, Duckweed's modifications are good with me. Especially granary whip.
The Pyramids will be done with 5 chops within 2 turns regardless the way it's written

Just so we are clear. pyramids cant get done till 106 with 5 chops. Not possible for a 105 mids. also right before I do my set. are we talking about a 2 pop whip library as well as 2 pop granary? In my plan I had a 2 pop and a 1 pop. just making sure.

I agree with Duckweed's suggestions. Earlier library adds more research overall and also more hammers earlier. Makes little difference on actual cottages worked too.

Alright everyone. I ended my turnset a couple turns early since there are several new occurrences:

Here is the official log:

Allright! Well played!

I see gold... I like gold

I'm not 100% convinced Zara is going for our site accross the desert. He's at least equally likely, if not more, to turn west and settle on the river imo. Just ran a few tests and he allways went west, but that doesn't neccessarily mean anything... I still think he's more likely to go for oasis+cow than wheat - settling in the AI preferred 1 off coast location (which means we'll get to settle wheat if we want to anyways (1W of preferred location?)).

Whipping the settler this turn will cost us a few turns on our next settler out of Bombay (whip overflow into settler, then 7 turns to regrow), so it's not the end of the world, I guess.

Anyways, we'll know more about Zara's intentions next turn (or the turn after). I'm betting on his 3rd city by the river

My conclusion: Play the turnset out after we decide on whip/no whip in Bombay. I don't mind whipping it just in case Zara manages to wander a bit with the settler before potentially heading north, but if we want max efficiency we just stick to current plan and trust the AI to help us out?

Random Comment: Seems like both Justinian and Saladin just expanded to 4 cities -> less likely we lose GLH 1075BC.

I'm sorry to be a bit negative. Frankly I feel this round was not well considered and I'm disappointed about it:

1. the Granary whipping. We certainly lost some food and hammers on it. The reason is simple: Never whip a granary when the food bar is empty. The optimum way is to whip it when the bar is 1/3 full, or 2/3 empty whatsoever.

2. -1 gpt of unit supply for nothing. If you move the warrior in NW 1W and move the one in SW back to our culture border, you can fogbust all the land tiles without that -1gtp for unit supply.

3. I found one-pop whipping of library or no whipping can allow to beeline CS earlier. At least this issue was worth a deeper discussion.

I'm sorry to have some criticism. I hope we can have a better consideration on all the issues before going playing next time.

OK, checked the save:

1) The map is well cooked, too obvious. Three neighbors all favor Theocracy as civic. Max diplomatic bonus of civic: Zara (+5), Justine (+5), Saladin (+2).

2) Saladin doesn't have coastal city.

3) Can build 2 cities on the gold sites.

double post

dingding said:

I'm sorry to be a bit negative. Frankly I feel this round was not well considered and I'm disappointed about it:

1. the Granary whipping. We certainly lost some food and hammers on it. The reason is simple: Never whip a granary when the food bar is empty. The optimum way is to whip it when the bar is 1/3 full, or 2/3 empty whatsoever.

2. -1 gpt of unit supply for nothing. If you move the warrior in NW 1W and move the one in SW back to our culture border, you can fogbust all the land tiles without that -1gtp for unit supply.

3. I found one-pop whipping of library or no whipping can allow to beeline CS earlier. At least this issue was worth a deeper discussion.

I'm sorry to have some criticism. I hope we can have a better consideration on all the issues before going playing next time.

Click to expand...

It's good that you express your thoughts/concerns.

1. The granary got pushed a bit up in the final plan. EDIT: Test-game is probably a bit off compared to real save? Can't reproduce the results in testgame. I thought we did this: Whipping T108 at 18/51 foodbar, but apparently we did not? Whip granary at T106 I assume was with 2pop and with some food in store?

2. Good point, although it would be enough to move 1 of the warriors back inside borders to not lose the gold (when 1 worker goes out to chop northern Vijay forest)?

3. (This is what I thought, but can't really reproduce with the T106 and T109 whips from real game in testing, so...)
Since I didn't propose it, I can only try to somehow analyze it so I can't say for sure. I think majority wanted a 2-pop whip for more hammers into ToA while not really losing out much on research. If you 2pop whip T110 you grow back to size 4 the next turn (and get back to size 5 T114 while working cottage that finishes T111)) at T 114 you have 88/525 (or 97/525 if you chose to work hill with growth T115) and a few more for T116 comparison below.
If you 1-pop whip T114 you'll have ~70/525 (on T 116) for ToA but you're at size 6 on T115. (I realize you can whip the library later for more hammers, but you're losing on research?) You'll have made some commerce off extra pop while not getting Lib bonus for 4-5 turns (I think lib is better?). Max pop is 7 for quite some time in Delhi (after the whipping). It'll be ~4 extra turns to reach size 7 with 2 pop-whip, but it shouldn't be that bad all things considered?

I'm not sure we're losing a lot of cottage-turns either way?

But you probably have a better understanding of these things than I do, so what's your take on it?

Bugg123 said:

3. (This is what I thought, but can't really reproduce with the T106 and T109 whips from real game in testing, so...)
Since I didn't propose it, I can only try to somehow analyze it so I can't say for sure. I think majority wanted a 2-pop whip for more hammers into ToA while not really losing out much on research. If you 2pop whip T110 you grow back to size 4 the next turn (and get back to size 5 T114 while working cottage that finishes T111)) at T 114 you have 88/525 (or 97/525 if you chose to work hill with growth T115) and a few more for T116 comparison below.
If you 1-pop whip T114 you'll have ~70/525 (on T 116) for ToA but you're at size 6 on T115. (I realize you can whip the library later for more hammers, but you're losing on research?) You'll have made some commerce off extra pop while not getting Lib bonus for 4-5 turns (I think lib is better?). Max pop is 7 for quite some time in Delhi (after the whipping). It'll be ~4 extra turns to reach size 7 with 2 pop-whip, but it shouldn't be that bad all things considered?

I'm not sure we're losing a lot of cottage-turns either way?

But you probably have a better understanding of these things than I do, so what's your take on it?

Click to expand...

In my opintion, that's first of all a question whether you want to finish the ToA. If yes, we can whip 2 pop; if not, I prefer whip 1.

The reason why I don't want to finish ToA is that we don't have much hammers on it, especially if we have 2-3 settlers and Hanghing Garden behind. To finish it, we need to sacrify some production (pop and trees), research (from scientist or cottage) and more important, a lot of time.

Comparing one-pop whipping with two-pop, we'll find the two-pop one converts one pop into production of ToA. That's about 40 basic hammers, 80 final hammers on ToA, equivalent to 80 gold and 110 final beakers. One-pop whipping saves one pop, so we can convert it into Scientist, that's -2F+10.5B+6GPP per turn.

I don't have an exact formule to compare -2F+10.5B+6GPP per turn with 110B, but since the food is abundant in Delhi, I'm quite sure that in no more than 15turns the first one will be superior to the last one, let alone we can't get the cash from ToA very soon: 110B in 200BC is certainly less important than 110B in 1000BC.

It's been played so let's not dwelle on it. However, we shouldn't waste more hammers/pop on sth not revelant, and I'm even less convinced to 3-pop whip a settler in Delhi given the offshore we've discovered so far.

Well... yes.. what's done is done, and I still think we look good, so...

What needs to be decided now, I think, is what, if anything, needs to be done because of Zara's settler. Then play it out till decisiontime for GLH (or decide now we may want to produce GLH naturally and play it out untill completion), then decide on expansion going forward.

What are the thoughts on this? I can't decide when it comes to the settler. We could whip it, put overflow in settler, and grow back in 6 turns(?). It'll delay further settling by a few turns, and could prove not needed if Zara on the next few turns decides to not cross the desert.

Whipping allows to settle where we want IF Zara takes a detour before deciding. If not whipping serves no useful purpose imo.

Well played

We don't know for certain that Saladin has no coastal city. He might just not have had time to build a workboat yet. What's certain however is that the one we found isn't coastal. He isn't a threat to GLH.
Zara went for a Settler so he isn't a threat either.
Justinian also went Settler, no threat either.

That leaves 3 AIs that can build GLH.

We're second in land... presumably another AI has more cities - 2 AIs left.

I'd say the chances we get natural GLH at 1075BC are pretty good.

Not sure why Delhi got a cottage already? Could have chopped a forest in Bombay and the settler would have been out already. Anyway, we might want to consider working it now that it's built. Accelerates growth by 1 turn after all.

Gold is nice yes but cities there will be stuck at 3~4 pop without being productive much. If we don't find a better spot somewhere I'm against 3-pop whip (maybe 2-pop but certainly not 3).

I'll try updating the test game in the next 2 hours. Not updating the AIs now I'll wait to see the full roster before doing so (too much work to do it several times and it doesn't alter our testing anyway).

More later, gotta run for a bit.

kossin said:

We don't know for certain that Saladin has no coastal city. He might just not have had time to build a workboat yet. What's certain however is that the one we found isn't coastal. He isn't a threat to GLH.

Click to expand...

He's unable to establish traderoad with us, unlike Zara or Justine. That means either none of his current cities is coastal or he might have a newly built coastal city which is not connectet to the cap.

None of the two explanations can show that he's competitor on GLH.

Yea, that's better worded than what I said - which is what I meant. Only 2 AIs can contend for GLH by my estimation.

He's met Justinian so I suspect they are on the same landmass.

Interesting set, Udey
I understand why you've stopped it but agree with Bugg that you can keep on playing. Well... here's my input :

Do we have traderoutes with Saladin if we OB ? I've never understood what exploration exactly is needed to enable them (usually, I'll try to spot a city tile or road/river connected to the ocean). I'm fearing you were a bit shy, here.
Now that we have Sailing, I don't see a reason not to OB with him now (3 different religions, eeek... what's left for poor Hattie, Izzie & Monty?).

You went north to the gold, not a bad call. It will allow us to plan our expansion more easily. I wonder if there's food we can't see inland (at least an oasis, maybe cows... it looks like there's grass west of the northern gold, right?).

From the looks of it, I'll reiterate : what use is it to build a workboat in Vijay first, before a galley ? If we're set to go offshore, then the galley saves us... what the wb costs. Galley can go explore and turn back to pick up a settler, that's not a problem, or is it ?

dingding said:

In my opintion, that's first of all a question whether you want to finish the ToA. If yes, we can whip 2 pop; if not, I prefer whip 1.

The reason why I don't want to finish ToA is that we don't have much hammers on it, especially if we have 2-3 settlers and Hanghing Garden behind. To finish it, we need to sacrify some production (pop and trees), research (from scientist or cottage) and more important, a lot of time.

Click to expand...

Right. We quite didn't discuss this. However, it's extremely important for the reasons you mention and to plan what tiles Delhi will be using (cottages vs mines) and what improvements need be done (we still have a shortage of workers).

In any case, if we want the ToA done, I don't think the HG should be built in Delhi. We'll need some infra at some point : a forge, a market (second thought: not sure you'd want a market), some temples, a university, the GLib, the NE, Oxford, prolly an aqueduct... How many wonders do we want to add to the list ?

I think that what has not been discussed here are our long term objectives. I believe we have a few conflicting ones. Delhi's contribution to our empire isn't clear: we talk about cottages but go for a super GP producing city as well.
Also unclear is how pacifism fits in the scheme. Do we want it ? I'd want it. I'd rather bulb Philosophy, actually, than build the Parthenon. Although those are not exclusive.
Then, if we're in Representation+Caste+Pacifism+5GPs settled in Delhi, do we want the cottages ?
If we want them, we should work them. And maybe not aim for the ToA. If we aim for the ToA, maybe we should not want 8+ cottages in Delhi.
I'm not sure about the cottages growth rate here and what size we would want them when Oxford is built... So... not taking sides.

If we don't cottage Delhi, then growing Bombay should be a priority because it has a lot of grassland that can be cottaged, eventually.

Bugg123 said:

What needs to be decided now, I think, is what, if anything, needs to be done because of Zara's settler. Then play it out till decisiontime for GLH (or decide now we may want to produce GLH naturally and play it out untill completion), then decide on expansion going forward.

Click to expand...

I don't think we need to react to Zara's settler just now.
Maybe he will aim for the wheat and maybe he won't (my bet is he'll settle 1SE of the cow, just by the lake).
Question is : is it worth it to whip Bombay to size 1 to settle 3 turns sooner ? I really don't think so.
1- We don't know if Zara will go for the wheat. It is strategically interesting but a poor site otherwise. It's also accross the desert for him. Do AIs settle these kinds of sites easily ? I'm in doubt.
2- Bombay still has a lot of work to do. It is already undergrown, meaning we need to chop around it to ensure a decent settlers/workers production. Objective should not be to whip it but to grow it.
3- If Zara settles the wheat, good for him ! We have top quality sites waiting for us. The rice site, for example, that maybe should be 2S1W of the rice. That is... IF we settle the gold so that we access the crab (and thus not settling 1SE of the crab).
4- Settling related : how is the super clam site not so good ? It isn't inferior to Pataliputra in the long run, food wise. With marble and cows to share, it can even have a better production. It requires 3 workboats and a lighthouse, is that what makes it unexciting ?

Alright here's the test game. I think I've got most if not everything right (anyway the important parts).

Bugg123's up.

Things to discuss:

-open borders with Saladin
-settler whip in Bombay and next Build
-5th city if Zara screws us
-GLH whip on 1150BC/later (or none) and next build (Galley? Wb?)
-Pali 2nd wb whip timing (size 2/3?) and subsequent build
-settler in Delhi?
-worker assignments
-civics (can we manage a 5 turns into Caste to pop borders of city #5?)
-teching (we can't 100% all the way to Currency now but I still think we should exhaust our gold in case we fail a wonder)
-set length
-Anything I missed

BornInCantaloup said:

From the looks of it, I'll reiterate : what use is it to build a workboat in Vijay first, before a galley ? If we're set to go offshore, then the galley saves us... what the wb costs. Galley can go explore and turn back to pick up a settler, that's not a problem, or is it ?

In any case, if we want the ToA done, I don't think the HG should be built in Delhi. We'll need some infra at some point : a forge, a market (second thought: not sure you'd want a market), some temples, a university, the GLib, the NE, Oxford, prolly an aqueduct... How many wonders do we want to add to the list ?

I think that what has not been discussed here are our long term objectives. I believe we have a few conflicting ones. Delhi's contribution to our empire isn't clear: we talk about cottages but go for a super GP producing city as well.
Also unclear is how pacifism fits in the scheme. Do we want it ? I'd want it. I'd rather bulb Philosophy, actually, than build the Parthenon. Although those are not exclusive.
Then, if we're in Representation+Caste+Pacifism+5GPs settled in Delhi, do we want the cottages ?
If we want them, we should work them. And maybe not aim for the ToA. If we aim for the ToA, maybe we should not want 8+ cottages in Delhi.
I'm not sure about the cottages growth rate here and what size we would want them when Oxford is built... So... not taking sides.

If we don't cottage Delhi, then growing Bombay should be a priority because it has a lot of grassland that can be cottaged, eventually.



I don't think we need to react to Zara's settler just now.
Maybe he will aim for the wheat and maybe he won't (my bet is he'll settle 1SE of the cow, just by the lake).
Question is : is it worth it to whip Bombay to size 1 to settle 3 turns sooner ? I really don't think so.
1- We don't know if Zara will go for the wheat. It is strategically interesting but a poor site otherwise. It's also accross the desert for him. Do AIs settle these kinds of sites easily ? I'm in doubt.
2- Bombay still has a lot of work to do. It is already undergrown, meaning we need to chop around it to ensure a decent settlers/workers production. Objective should not be to whip it but to grow it.
3- If Zara settles the wheat, good for him ! We have top quality sites waiting for us. The rice site, for example, that maybe should be 2S1W of the rice. That is... IF we settle the gold so that we access the crab (and thus not settling 1SE of the crab).
4- Settling related : how is the super clam site not so good ? It isn't inferior to Pataliputra in the long run, food wise. With marble and cows to share, it can even have a better production. It requires 3 workboats and a lighthouse, is that what makes it unexciting ?

Click to expand...

wb in Vijay: A galley can only explore just so much. I think we can circle the globe with workboats so we should try. There's a lot of land to explore and the earlier we know what's about the better. We can always chop one from city #5 however as you say.

You need the trade network sign by the leader name in scoreboard to establish trade routes. In this case we don't so OB won't benefit him or us. We should definitely OB with him (I mean, we did give Justinian a lot of free commerce)

HG>>>>ToA in my book. I preferred earlier Library for the extra science. The delay on growth is very tiny. We still have a lot of time before 500BC which is around when we can complete HG. Finishing ToA is around 800BC iIrc which leaves us scrambling to get to HG in time I think. Let's find out I guess.
As said earlier, the GE points in Delhi will be most welcome to rush UN.

No whip in Bombay. Too late now anyway.

1- I think there might be Iron in the desert. Since ZY has IW, he's probably settling it. [note: I added some Iron in the desert and Zara still goes west rather than north]
2- Finish chopping forests into settlers then we can start growing it.
3- Yea I guess. The point was to grab the health resource however. And the forest are good production.
4- It's good... it's just a long time to set up (3*45+90+90=315 hammers &border pop) that's 2 settlers worth of infra