D'tesh Events (Possible bug)

Grey Fox said:

Could just make it so that each tile can only make one slave, ever. Would require a variable on the plot though.

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Yes, and that would be easy to add... But I don't want to add to much to plots. Each variable needs that much more memory, as there are how many thousand plots in a single map?

I foresee a problem with the arcane method. Unless a spell can require being in the fat-cross of a city, you loose the "tile must be worked" constraint so casting the spell on unworkable tiles is a no-brainer.

Swinkscalibur said:

I foresee a problem with the arcane method. Unless a spell can require being in the fat-cross of a city, you loose the "tile must be worked" constraint so casting the spell on unworkable tiles is a no-brainer.

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That is extremely easy to have. Wouldn't necessarily see if it's worked, but it would check that it's in the city's workable radius... Which is the same thing for the D'tesh, as eventually you'll want the plot.

And yes, that should be a requirement. Good catch.

I think I'd prefer the spawn be random in some way (a fixed recovery time is fine), so the slave spawns aren't too regular, just as a matter of feel, but that's not a huge issue. I'm really opposed to forcing space between the spawning structures as you have limited the available improvements for D'Tesh (what are we going to build on all the tiles inbetween?). I really think you have to go with low probability of spawns (possibly influenced by death mana/previous spawns) or long transition times plus longer improvement build times (possibly with some restrictions on D'Tesh workers, maybe make them incrementally more expensive and make captured workers always slaves), if you go with the first option you've laid out.

I don't like the second option at all as it would make me feel like I had to save cheat. But if you want to go that route (spawning due to spellcasting), I'd prefer more forms of the crypt such as the following:
+1 Version after a spawn, unpillageable, in 40 turns ->
+1+1 still unpillageable, in 60 turns ->
+2+1 still unpillageable, this is the version that a worker builds, in 100 turns ->
+2+2 Pillageable or castable
Or whatever the numbers are. I'd really like to be able to be rid of it if there's mythril or something underneath it. And I really don't want the bang-head-on-keyboard 50% chance of a bad result for something I'm going to be doing regularly (see also the discussion of the Master of Creation promo).
The other problem with this version is that you need an arcane unit to get your slave. Which means that in the early portion of the game which the mechanic is meant to address, you can't use it.

Cyrusfan said:

I think I'd prefer the spawn be random in some way (a fixed recovery time is fine), so the slave spawns aren't too regular, just as a matter of feel, but that's not a huge issue. I'm really opposed to forcing space between the spawning structures as you have limited the available improvements for D'Tesh (what are we going to build on all the tiles inbetween?). I really think you have to go with low probability of spawns (possibly influenced by death mana/previous spawns) or long transition times plus longer improvement build times (possibly with some restrictions on D'Tesh workers, maybe make them incrementally more expensive and make captured workers always slaves), if you go with the first option you've laid out.

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I really don't like the random version, though. I do NOT want this to be a core mechanic, or something to plan for/rely on... It is something you can fall back on if you have to, but otherwise should not use.

And I am seriously opposed to limiting the space between them as well, for the same reason. The issue is that with the improvement method, mid-late game you can build them on every tile, work them all, and then in 50 or so turns have enough slaves to start a new city of nearly the same size. Just have to have some wait around while you build infrastructure.

That makes it FAR too much a core mechanic, which again, is not what I want here. Pop should come from warfare; This is just a fallback.

Any kind of spawn mechanic which is weighted by past spawns/affected by Death mana/whatever would require an entirely new mechanic to be added; I'm wanting to use existing code.

Cyrusfan said:

I don't like the second option at all as it would make me feel like I had to save cheat. But if you want to go that route (spawning due to spellcasting), I'd prefer more forms of the crypt such as the following:
+1 Version after a spawn, unpillageable, in 40 turns ->
+1+1 still unpillageable, in 60 turns ->
+2+1 still unpillageable, this is the version that a worker builds, in 100 turns ->
+2+2 Pillageable or castable
Or whatever the numbers are. I'd really like to be able to be rid of it if there's mythril or something underneath it. And I really don't want the bang-head-on-keyboard 50% chance of a bad result for something I'm going to be doing regularly (see also the discussion of the Master of Creation promo).
The other problem with this version is that you need an arcane unit to get your slave. Which means that in the early portion of the game which the mechanic is meant to address, you can't use it.

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The only hidden resources are Metals; I could easily allow the nerfed form of the Crypt to work them. Not a big deal, IMO.

I really want it to be a permanent cost; Something that you have to think long and hard about using. It may benefit you in the short term, but you KNOW it will hurt you long term; Keeps it from being used too often.

As for the chance... I could remove that, and just have one crypt, one slave. Not hard, in fact easier. That way, there is no python involved with it. Pure xml.

As for the Arcane unit... D'tesh will have no problem there. The other two may; haven't decided on the new leader's traits, we'll see if he's Arcane or not. That should give you a large hint as to what kind of boost the Arcane trait will receive... In any case though, the KotE tech should be beelined. The mage guild allows you to make use of all your pop... Even as Thanatos, that's my first tech. THEN Hunting.

Okay, I guess I misunderstood where you were going with this. If it is a temporary cost using the numbers I suggest, it's limited to 100160, or less if I don't work the tile (which makes it the fifth crypt I build or later given the starting pop of 4). But if it's a permanent downgrade, necessarily around my capital, since I'm not as worried about slaves by the time I get additional cities and roads to them built, I don't think I'd ever use it. I'd almost prefer this be done by event (a corpse crawls out of the crypt as D'Tech wakes from a nightmare), which would give a few early on until you start qualifying for other events.

Arcane leaders get a free Adept? Or something like the more pathetic disciple unit the Malakim start with? So in the Legion's case I can start converting mana nodes...wait, no, still need Necromancy. Who has channeling so I can get, um, one Chosen of D'Tesh sooner?

Oh and I meant to ask about the fort commander. You said it convert the fort to something (crypt?). Would that free the unit up (convert it to an adept, maybe) the way Jotnar fc's can found cities?

Cyrusfan said:

Okay, I guess I misunderstood where you were going with this. If it is a temporary cost using the numbers I suggest, it's limited to 100160, or less if I don't work the tile (which makes it the fifth crypt I build or later given the starting pop of 4). But if it's a permanent downgrade, necessarily around my capital, since I'm not as worried about slaves by the time I get additional cities and roads to them built, I don't think I'd ever use it. I'd almost prefer this be done by event (a corpse crawls out of the crypt as D'Tech wakes from a nightmare), which would give a few early on until you start qualifying for other events.

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Events cannot be controlled. This can. I frankly don't WANT people to use it; It is a fallback for in case they must use it. That's all.

Cyrusfan said:

Arcane leaders get a free Adept? Or something like the more pathetic disciple unit the Malakim start with? So in the Legion's case I can start converting mana nodes...wait, no, still need Necromancy. Who has channeling so I can get, um, one Chosen of D'Tesh sooner?

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No, kinda, no, no.

Cyrusfan said:

Oh and I meant to ask about the fort commander. You said it convert the fort to something (crypt?). Would that free the unit up (convert it to an adept, maybe) the way Jotnar fc's can found cities?

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It converts forts to Lesser Mausoleum, which is the D'teshi equivalent of a fort. That's all.

So no, it doesn't free the unit up, it remains a fort commander.

Does the FC automatically change the underlying fort? Because with the defensive (relative) penalties, I'm not sure why you would voluntarily trade an established fort for the mausoleum line (unless you're blocking D'Tesh units from the normal fort bonuses). The improved growth rate doesn't really matter for a fort that's already upgraded, and the tile claim doesn't matter much since I can always build more mausoleums.

I guess Arcane leaders are maybe allowed to build a technically arcane unit that doesn't really do anything (no Channeling=>no spells). Or something.

Cyrusfan said:

Does the FC automatically change the underlying fort? Because with the defensive (relative) penalties, I'm not sure why you would voluntarily trade an established fort for the mausoleum line (unless you're blocking D'Tesh units from the normal fort bonuses). The improved growth rate doesn't really matter for a fort that's already upgraded, and the tile claim doesn't matter much since I can always build more mausoleums.

I guess Arcane leaders are maybe allowed to build a technically arcane unit that doesn't really do anything (no Channeling=>no spells). Or something.

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It is not automatic. It's a spell, you choose to cast it or not. But the tile claim can indeed matter; More cultural control strength = more true culture inserted into the tile = harder for cities to grab it away.

Nope.

I'm not sure if I'm at a point to be running around knocking of forts that I'm going to leave the city on the other side of them in m opponent's hands to steal their tiles. I certainly see the need for D'Tesh to grab territory with his own forts (which I build exclusively with GC), I just meant in the process of conquest, I'd rather have the bonus, and once the conquest is done, the captured fort is between my old and new holdings, so the control radius doesn't matter.

And I'm out of guesses for the Arcane bonus. I'm not sure how you 'kinda' get a free unit.

Cyrusfan said:

I'm not sure if I'm at a point to be running around knocking of forts that I'm going to leave the city on the other side of them in m opponent's hands to steal their tiles. I certainly see the need for D'Tesh to grab territory with his own forts (which I build exclusively with GC), I just meant in the process of conquest, I'd rather have the bonus, and once the conquest is done, the captured fort is between my old and new holdings, so the control radius doesn't matter.

And I'm out of guesses for the Arcane bonus. I'm not sure how you 'kinda' get a free unit.

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Ah, just conquered forts? Yes, I'd tend to leave them alone as well. It was added mostly for the GC built forts, as I didn't want to add python to that spell... It builds the generic fort, the D'teshi Commander can then convert it.

You were right about it being an early unit. Just wrong about it not doing anything. We have plans, been hashing it out for a while now.

Okay, that makes sense.

Okay, I beelined KotE as you suggested, and I really must say, they play a lot better when one plays them correctly. All this time I've been defending my cities with warriors. D'oh.

Anyway, I was wondering if you were going to give them something like the Scion's effect for reduced population in captured cities or just give their leaders the slaver trait (and adjust the undead promos as necessary).

Cyrusfan said:

Okay, I beelined KotE as you suggested, and I really must say, they play a lot better when one plays them correctly. All this time I've been defending my cities with warriors. D'oh.

Anyway, I was wondering if you were going to give them something like the Scion's effect for reduced population in captured cities or just give their leaders the slaver trait (and adjust the undead promos as necessary).

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Yes, they are designed for a very specific playstyle. Warriors are next to useless unless you have lots of death mana... Or are playing as D'tesh, next version.

Check post 2 in the thread. "Capturing a city reduces it's pop by 1/3."

Won't be giving them Slaver, as that's an Emergent trait and certain other changes would make that not work well.

Alright, the Arcane line changes are done... Took a bit, as I'm trying to find a summer job.

• Unit Adjustments
  • No D'teshi arcane unit gains free xp, instead they gain higher attack strength.
    • This is to encourage using them as your attacking force; Keeping them at home is now useless.
  • Specific Unit Stats
    • Binder - 3, +2 Death Combat
    • Chosen - 4, +2 Death Combat, +1 Death Affinity
    • Council of Four - 5, +3 Death Combat, +1 Death Affinity, +1 Shadow Affinity
• Special for D'tesh
  • All D'teshi leaders gain a special boost for a specific unitline; For D'tesh himself, that is the Arcane line.
  • When playing D'tesh, arcane units gain the "Necromantically Empowered" promotion. This has no direct benefits; Instead, it allows the unit to cast the "Dark Empowerment" spell.
  • Dark Empowerment
    • Requires a Melee unit in the stack
    • Caster may not have the "Dark Empowerment" promotion
    • Kills the weakest Melee unit in the stack (actual combat strength, and weighted by certain promos; Function by Odalrick, been in for a while, had not been used. Modified it to be able to search for a specific unitcombat)
    • Caster gains the "Dark Empowerment" promotion
  • Dark Empowerment (Promotion)
    • +100% xp from combat
    • +1 xp from combat
    • +25% Attack Strength (Defense unaffected)
    • Wears off in 10 turns

So... Melee units become useful under D'tesh, in the same way that Bloodpets are useful to the Calabim. They are fodder, brought along to empower your units.

How do the testers feel about this? It seems like this would dramatically limit the number of Chosen you're going to get, as there are only so many barbs that are ever going to spawn and feed those Binders. I'm not sure I would even want to build forts under this system, for fear of losing those xp.

Alright... BIG additions for them today. Most of the time spent on it was actually coming up with suitable names, though.

First off... The units. These are the long-promised defensive units... Bringing the D'tesh up to three viable unit lines.

• Watcher
  • Disciple Unitcombat
    • This is TEMPORARY. Could not use Melee due to changes to the Arcane line, did not want to use archer, and Disciple actually fits. Just not as well as what it will be, after the full unitpass (full meaning full mod, not single civ). The D'tesh simply need these units now, so I added them where I could.
  • 1/3 , +1 Death Combat
  • 1
  • 25
  • +25% City Defense
  • 20% chance to generate a Slave
  • D'tesh now start with one of these, rather than a warrior.
  • Yes, the Watcher is currently the worker UU... That UU has been gone for quite some time in the team version, though, and the name fits. Worker is now handled using an autoacquired promotions... Worker UU glut is the main reason promotionbuilds were added.
• Sentinel
  • Disciple Unitcombat
  • 2/4 , +1 Death Combat
  • 1
  • 60
  • +25% City Defense
  • +25% chance to generate a Slave
  • Requires Bronze Working
  • Requires Barracks
• Death's Head
  • Disciple Unitcombat
  • 4/6 , +1 Death Combat, +1 Death Affinity
  • 1
  • 140
  • +25% City Defense
  • +30% chance to generate a Slave
  • Does not obsolete
  • Requires Iron Working
  • Requires Barracks
• Hand of D'tesh
  • Disciple Unitcombat
  • National Unit (4 Allowed)
  • 10/12 , +2 Death Combat, +2 Death Affinity
    • This may be toned down... However, this tech line atm has very little to offer the D'tesh (no buildings that increase pop limit), and you can only have 4. Will wait for feedback from testers before nerfing it.
  • 1
  • 260
  • +25% City Defense
  • 40% chance to generate a Slave
  • Requires Mithril Working
  • Requires Weaponsmith

Now the leader... Introducing Vanedis, leader of the strongest Council of Four.

• Vanedis
  • Art - http://udoncrew.deviantart.com/art/Acererak-75386090
  • Defender/Spiritual
  • Lore
    • D'tesh's oldest friend, from before he found the Opalus Mortus.
    • Is a former Amurite as a result (as most of the stronger D'teshi mages are)
    • Is the leader of the strongest Council of Four
  • Special
    • Vanedis focuses on the new unitline, same way Thanatos focuses on Recon and D'tesh on Arcane.
    • At level 5, these units are able to choose from 3 formations; These are free, and can be swapped at any time.
    • These promotions are named for the other members of Vanedis' council.
    • Fist of Orn
      • +50% City Attack
      • -25% City Defense
      • -1 Defense Strength
    • Shield of Ramne
      • +2 Defense Strength
      • -2 Attack Strength
    • Grasp of Karn
      • +15% chance to generate a Slave
      • -10% Strength
  • In-Game Representation
    • Both D'tesh and Thanatos are represented in game, as heroes. I don't think Vanedis should be an actual hero.
    • If he is in game, I think he'd just be the first arcane unit you train. Grant Battle-Hardened to him, so it's a mini-hero. Otherwise, nothing special.

So, I think it's some interesting changes. The units will not remain Disciples, but I won't give any more info than that.

Any comments/opinions?

Wouldn't it be more accurate (lore-wise) to just give the first Council of Four unit a unic name and perhaps (since battle hardened isn't of much use to a unit that already on lvl. 6) the summoner promotion? Would go well with the Legion's theme of controlling the undead without unbalancing the game unnecessarily...

Your first arcane unit isn't necessarily the best after all, especially since you will often want to give it spells which are crucial in the early game but useless on a high level combat mage (think terraforming, enchantment, inspiration...)


About the new unitline: Have you considered reducing their experience gain somewhat (like 25%), otherwise they might just end up stealing the arcane line their position on the front line...


Looking forward to the new Legion.

Can a Watcher take Shield of Ramne? If so its strength would be 1-2/3+2 = -1/5. Does this work? Will it just give 0/5? Just curious. Or does the +1 death damage just make it even out at 0/6 ? Will this unit be able to attack still? What would happen if it attacked a golem with effectively -1 strength?

Valkrionn :
three aspects on the D'tesh :
(I never played them ; my comments are just "first-time reader" comments)

-possibility of "cheat" :
get your capitol city to X + 12 pop; then move the palace to another city that is maxed out at X pop ; grow it to X + 12pop. start again when you get a new building that ougth to allow a higher pop city.
well that is only unless removing the palace decrease the pop ; or if the current population of a D'tesh city is really fluctuant : +1-1 every odd turn : pop vs achievement (but I'm not sure I understood that concept)

2nd point :
-your council of Four get +1 shadow affinity : it seems a bit non-interesting. all other mechanisme of the D'tesh are based on Death affinity ergo all your mana nodes will e death nodes. the only shadow node you'll have is eventually Nox Nixtis. So IMO shadow affinitu may not be really useful.

3rd point : It is a civ with a huge emphasis on Death mana... But death mana already has a big mechanisme pushing you to stack it. IMO, it may be a "bit" too much.
your D'tesh mages and "new disciple line (replaces melee line?)", with death affinity are virtual phalanxs moving around quite early in the game : what chance do the neighboring civs have ?
(4/6 +1death +death affinity is way stronger than 6 + metal weapons as it is : 5/7 + death affinity ; and you can easily have 4death nodes or much more by the time you get iron working.)

==> why not have their affinity work with another mana ? ex : "life" ? I don't know the lore but... why not have their "revived dead" condition be enhanced with life mana ? makes more sense than having death affinity : death serves to anihilate life : good use against someone, but maybe not so good a use to enhance the animated corpse ; especially if the corpse is not a "summon" but an actual "citizen" of your empire.

==> I really like the feel of having abilities for 2-3 manas at tier III + affinity for 1mana for the next tier IV unit : it forces you to chose : stack your manas to play on the affinity of the Tier IV unit or spread the mana to enhance the mana ability of the tierII tierIII units ?
Or even better Have affinity for different manas depending on the different unit branchs.
(Death affinity for all D'tesh units + DeathII and DeathIII summons seems a bit OP and simplisitic)
ex :
Death's Head
Disciple Unitcombat
4/6 , +1 Death Combat, +1 Death ability + 1body ability + 1shadow ability ==> max : 8/10 (still strong)
Hand of D'tesh
10/12 , +2 Death Combat, +1 Death Affinity (and not +2 as 10/12 +2/death node is...OP)

*my 0.2 ... sorry if there are much rambling