SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

OK, I updated the PPP to reflect the changes. I might have miscalculated and Delhi may have to work a plains forest for one turn (or river grass) because it might end up a turn short on the cottaging process.

Good luck, shyuhe!!!

Everything sounds good - go ahead, shyuhe. Good luck!

There's something I've been meaning to talk about for a while. Frankly, I don't think I want to be actually playing this game There's a reason I play fast. The thought of running every possible build path down with a test save sounds like a huge pile of boredom and tedium to me. It wouldn't be fun, and after all that's why most of us play this game. Maybe the tedium is the "price" to pay for playing well and doing good, but the level of play to which the last few turnsets have gone is a bit too much for me... Plus the fear of clicking a wrong button and instantly invalidating weeks of play for the whole team... I guess I didn't really know what I was getting into, sorta like with the multiteam demogame, I really jumped the gun on that one

So what do you think of me possibly acting as technically a lurker, but still participating as much as I have thus far, giving thoughts about stuff like tech paths and larger decisions, plus of course the code, tech and math heavy stuff (I guess soon there'll be more of that, with gift begging and war declaration probabilities etc entering the picture)? Would that be considered freeloading or copping out? Nothing would really change, except I wouldn't be functioning as an actuator for PPP plans I probably wouldn't even come up with myself for the most part...

Heh, one need to have pressure resistance
I do not know, for me fun was allways doing well..

Common shyuhe time to play!

Silu said:

There's something I've been meaning to talk about for a while. Frankly, I don't think I want to be actually playing this game There's a reason I play fast. The thought of running every possible build path down with a test save sounds like a huge pile of boredom and tedium to me. It wouldn't be fun, and after all that's why most of us play this game. Maybe the tedium is the "price" to pay for playing well and doing good, but the level of play to which the last few turnsets have gone is a bit too much for me... Plus the fear of clicking a wrong button and instantly invalidating weeks of play for the whole team... I guess I didn't really know what I was getting into, sorta like with the multiteam demogame, I really jumped the gun on that one

So what do you think of me possibly acting as technically a lurker, but still participating as much as I have thus far, giving thoughts about stuff like tech paths and larger decisions, plus of course the code, tech and math heavy stuff (I guess soon there'll be more of that, with gift begging and war declaration probabilities etc entering the picture)? Would that be considered freeloading or copping out? Nothing would really change, except I wouldn't be functioning as an actuator for PPP plans I probably wouldn't even come up with myself for the most part...

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Silu, I've been thinking the same thing for a while. Of course, unlike me, you actually have relevant things to say! I've been kind of dreading my upcoming turnset, so I think maybe I will join you in lurker-dom. (I mean a real lurker not an LC lurker! )

My civ skills are 3 years out of date and rusty to boot! I've definitely learned a lot from everyone here and hope to continue learning as we progress through the game. Thanks for letting me shoe-horn my way into OSS for old times sake, but I think next SGOTM I belong on a team that is a little less high-performance

Mutineer said:

Common shyuhe time to play!

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It's a Friday! And Friday means... I'll be playing first thing in the morning as I think playing tipsy is not the best course of action here

@Silu and mushroom - I appreciate the contributions you guys have made so far. Just let me know if you guys want a turn set I imagine the micro tedium will get a little less as we progress, as there's only so much micro you can do in larger empires. I think we'll be more concerned with tech pace, GPP generation, and diplo in another 30-40 turns. Basically once we get our cities established, we'll have different concerns and hopefully the micro tedium will diminish somewhat

I've been having the same feeling as silu and mushroomshirt, especially in the first few turns. Still there's lots of such discussion but now there's a lot of interesting things to discuss too. We have some players enjoying this MMM (mega-micromanagement) which is good but I'm not one of them. Always when I thought or saw something worth mentionning I did so. I enjoy the way the SGOTM is going now

About the issue with misclicks... I was afraid of that too, but hey, we're all human... a bad decision is much much worse than misclicking.

Looking foreward to your set shyuhe... for the next 3 weeks I'll hardly post anything as I'm once again spending some time at the barracks... So make sure you include some pics

Sounds like I'd better chime in too. I'm an MMM freak (of nature?). That's a fact. But my last intention was to spoil this for anyone. So this raises a serious problem for me. Luckily, there are a couple things going on in my life that should help. First, I'll be without CIV access starting around June 23rd at the latest, maybe sooner. Second, I need to spend much less time on CIV and much more time on certain other matters.

I have already stopped updating the test game. From now on, I intend to limit myself to 3 posts per turnset related specifically to the turnset. (casual posts, jokes and trashtalk still unlimited )

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As for mis-clicks, etc.: This was never something I fretted over. Not only are we all human, but that's completely unrelated to MMM. In fact, for an MMM freak, a mis-click is just an opportunity to take on a new MMM challenge...

Anyway, consider yourselves relieved of my burdensome MMMania. I'm still here with you. I'll provide any input anyone wants. I'm prepared to enjoy this from any vantage point. I would hope each one of you can do the same.

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At the beginning of our games, MW usually explicitly agreed on our goals. That was generaly to have fun and go for the gold. We always had fun and got the gold 3 times. One of my personal goals with OSS was to share what I learned in terms of how to get the gold. I believe I've succeeded in sharing what I know in that regard. I don't need to push that agenda any more. Let's have fun. Each person play his own turnset. We'll see what happens. We're in a pretty strong position, though I'm far from certain we're in any better situation than a few other teams. It will be interesting.

I personally have nothing against this MMM discussion but I just don't participate in that part of the discussion. It has been very interesting to follow it though and certainly is one of the reasons why we're in such a great position.

As to misclicks, I think there have been 2-3 or so so far (one by me, costing us a worker turn...) and there was never any bashing or flaming because of that so I am relaxed about that now but I still try to be very very concentrated every time I open the save.

I don't want you to stop with the MMM, LC, but I don't know about the others... I would like to avoid people dropping out however. This doesn't mean that your ideas and arguments aren't welcome

Limiting yourself to 3 posts per set is your choice, but I see a "discussion" as a series of arguments and counterarguments finding a consensus at some point (or not ). IMO, by limiting yourself you take away most of your contribution to the discussion, often one's point of view needs to be clarified, slightly adjusted, etc. But that's your decision, especially in regard to RL ("Real Life", that thing that's said to exist outside of civ and CFC ).

I hope we find a way to play the remainder of the SGOTM that fits everyone

mystyfly said:

I personally have nothing against this MMM discussion but I just don't participate in that part of the discussion. It has been very interesting to follow it though and certainly is one of the reasons why we're in such a great position.

As to misclicks, I think there have been 2-3 or so so far (one by me, costing us a worker turn...) and there was never any bashing or flaming because of that so I am relaxed about that now but I still try to be very very concentrated every time I open the save.

I don't want you to stop with the MMM, LC, but I don't know about the others... I would like to avoid people dropping out however. This doesn't mean that your ideas and arguments aren't welcome

Limiting yourself to 3 posts per set is your choice, but I see a "discussion" as a series of arguments and counterarguments finding a consensus at some point (or not ). IMO, by limiting yourself you take away most of your contribution to the discussion, often one's point of view needs to be clarified, slightly adjusted, etc. But that's your decision, especially in regard to RL ("Real Live", that thing that's said to exist outside of civ and CFC ).

I hope we find a way to play the remainder of the SGOTM that fits everyone

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I agree with all of this 100%, couldn't have said it better myself There's a lot of the MMM already done thus far, and with GREAT results, so it feels kinda dumb to start "just" playing because some players in the rotation (like me) don't want to bother doing the legwork. But since it felt there are enough people willing (wanting) to do that, I thought it could work to not "drop out" but just act as an advisor of sorts, kinda in the spirit of a democracy game where there's just a few executors but a whole team of brains behind the decisions. Maybe that's not in the spirit of succession games however.

Anyway, I don't think artificially limiting contribution is the way to go, I only see frustration at the end of that road I think it's unfair towards the MMM folk to just abandon that aspect of this even though they'd want to do it. Not really sure what the best course of action is.

My original goal was to limit my posts anyway. klarius had a special talent for condensing his thoughts for each turnset into a few sentences. When he joined MW, he also had an SG style of not expecting teammates to do all that much MM (although he is a master MMer). I kind of pushed for MM.Discussion can be very productive and in my experience is what leads to a synergy that makes the group better than the sum of the individuals. Imo, our discussions have also been such, because each little comment helps focus the result. For example, a single comment from you, mushroom, makes a difference. That you post less only emphasizes what you do post. Everything counts.

Unfortunately, I think too much discussion can detract, especially for non-native speakers of English, and for people not so interested in wading through all the discussion. Somewhere there's an optimal balance for each team.

So I would like to develop the skill of condensing my comments and input. Hopefully it won't necessarily mean less, although without CIV access I obviously won't be able to provide detailed MMM ideas.

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Historically, though, I think the spirit of succession games was people at varying levels of experience playing together. MW won its first gold with such a mixture. We even had one city settled on a tile that defied group consensus... No one killed anyone...

Yes, I want us to do well. No, I don't want anyone to avoid playing their turnset for fear of screwing up the team. No. We sink or swim as a team. No hard feelings. No misgivings. That's the spirit of the CFC succession games. I would prefer that we play within that spirit. Erkon was always insistent upon that and I had a much deeper sense of satisfaction winning in such a manner. Of course, no one is obligated to play more than they want. That can be a turnset, a turn, or nothing. Also part of the spirit of the SG is that each person contributes in their own way.

So I guess those are my thoughts on how we should go forward.

Ok, here's an interim report. Basically everything is going to plan and here are the things that came up:



(sent packing)

Toku got gems available for trade but we don't have anything to trade except stone, which we need in a few turns. Oh well.



(sent packing)

Then Saladin starts to hate us from religion:


Oh well, as long as we keep OB, I couldn't care less.

We got a lucky spread:


And Justinian cancels one of his deals:


And then Toku gets busy:


This is where I paused. I forgot to ask two things: 1 - should sugar build a WB or granary? and 2 - do we want to go for dye? I spotted Izzy's settler on the WEST coast, so the dye to the east should still be available if we want to make a grab for it. If we can't get it, we can plant a filler somewhere and gift it to Mehmed I think. Just some thought, although we're still way short on hammers to do this

Also, the monarchy table is off the table right now - if we want it, we'll need no state religion. I also used the Confucian missionary on 2fish, as it grew into unhappiness without natural spread. Do we want to consider hunting to get the ivory happiness soon?

Also, is CFC super slow for anyone other than me? It's kind of frustrating...

I'd get those gems from Toku before it's too late. You could road the marble tile asap and trade it, for example. Trade for hunting just as soon as you need the happiness, or sooner.

We talked about Sugar building a couple wbs for Marble.

I'm in favor a trying for the dyes and we all know Mutineer is... The worker at Bombay could just keep chopping till the forests are all gone.

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Yes, CFC is slow for me too.

The gems came available on a turn that we had nothing to offer (marble wasn't around). He went cautious the turn after that so we can't get it unless we go into NSR, which will cause unhappiness as well. Once our "fair trade" kicks in, he should move back to pleased and we can get them then.

I'll re-route the worker to chop near Bombay for the settler. I think we have a chance at the dye.

Thanks for confirming the sugar - I'll put it on some WBs and continue my set

Well, I was hoping everyone understand when they voted against trade for monarchy that we will not get that opportunity for a long time again!

Ok, played up to turn 142. Nothing new to report on the diplo/tech front. Paper is one turn from completion and I've changed research back to metalcasting for now (0%). Delhi is currently growing too fast for the workers but that situation will be fixed in another 3 turns or so.

I would also seriously contemplate a shift to Buddhism once the Hanging Gardens are complete and start spamming Buddhism to us and Zara. Mehmed and Izzy both hate our guts now, and I think they'll be easy to befriend if we have their religion.

Delhi is building HG, Bombay is chopping a settler, 2fish is cranking out GS (will hit unhappy in 3 turns or so), and the other cities are doing basic infra. Do we want to trade for hunting to alleviate the upcoming unhappiness? It will make it hard to build warriors but we have enough warriors running around right now and it's a cheap trade.

Sorry, I think I also forgot to shift to OR/Confucianism for two turns Don't ask me how I forgot...

So Mutineer is up next, unless mushroom or Silu want a crack

Our empire:


west:


east:


Mehmed has lots of land - he may be our opponent for the UN. I'm not sure whether we can get circumnavigation right now.

As for the general gameplay and MM level, I'm ok with whatever level of MM people are willing to put in. As you can see from my report, I'm not too good with MM myself either. I think so long as we concentrate on the big picture and keep those things in mind, the small MM will sort itself out naturally. So if crazy MM isn't your thing, then it's fine. I think the only level we really need is to order our tech and city builds and diplo decisions. That shouldn't be too hard, right?

I am not sure am I next or not, but still my initial analysis.

We are committed to producing GS first, before we can go to slavery, We need slavery, I count 4 cities which could benefit from round of slavery right away or with 6 turn delay.

With current rate we will get GS in 10 turns, if we hire one more scientist, 8 turns,
If we run all population as scientists for one turn that amount reduced down to 7.

I believe we are loosing more food and sci in production right now, because we do not have lighthouse and library in the city.
So, we should do it. Advantages, we would not need additional happiness. We can delay getting hunting. Ivory workers will use it turns to build some roads.
I believe when Oasis grow to 4 we need to whip granary for 2 and finish WB from overflow. It will be more beneficial then not to loose a few workers turns. It need to start to develop and it has improved ties to do so.

Hunting, yes we do have 5 warriors, but 2 of them in potential risk, one exploring and other in ivory city. In addition, we do not have military police in 5 cities. I believe we need to produce military police in them before we loose ability to produce warriors. Lost of production is big.

Worker can build some roads why waiting for as to get hunting.

that will free oasis to whip granary and for our galley to go west to move settler to gold.

So, from there come plan, produce GS in 6 turns, switch to slavery in 6 turns and do necessary whipping for 5 turns why staying in org religion, then when 2 fish re-grow(very fast), switch to pacifism/castle. ( we might be wanted to have 5 turns of non religion for trade, if there will be some trade opportunities at time, like trading maps)
Because of that, marble need to hire artist to expand borders before we loose castle for some time.

Buddism, I do not see the point. We really do not have production to produce missionaries. As I see it, for most of the game we will stay in conf, revolting to no religion when we need to trade with some one. Same for diplomatic finish. We do not get any real benefits from joining any religious block on permanent base. We are spiritual.

Capital, workers after finishing current actions should go and chop 2 forests into HG, we need to finish it asap, and aviability of slavery at time of it finish let as put new population to use.

That sounds good to me Mutineer. I believe you're up next